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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by TyBuff
cc CuteMeMick, some very valid points there. 147 is looking to be a very good division to be in for 2007, but the only real NAME at that weight is PBF. At least the only name that wont get a backlash when he is beaten.
cc#284 for you....
Though I agree, Cottos not beaten a fighter of the caliber of Tszyu like Hatton has, but it's only fair to point out that the ONLY fighter out there that he could do that with at THIS point is PBF.
Unless by the end of 2007 someone, either Williams, Cintron, Collazo, Margarito or any of the new comers wipes out the division anc Cotto beats them? And even then someone will come up with some bullshet!!
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by shza
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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
Steelie & Memphies: The ONLY win/opponent that Hatton has thats bigger then any of Cottos is Tszyu.... But come on Hatton can't ride on that win alone for the rest of his career.... That was over a year ago since then he aint done shet!!! Wether it's management or whatever else yu wanna throw in there, we are talking about fighters here not boxing politics... Whatevers happening between him and his mngrs. thats his shet!!
Cotto on the other hand doesn't have that big name your right on that, but Cottos gradually moving up I mean heres a kid with 27 fights and already hes more then half way there to surpassing Hattons career as far as quality of opponents all he needs is a big/recognizable name. It took Hatton 39 fights to accomplish that, it looks like it will take Cotto a little more then half of that.
Another important thing is there is NO REAL SUPERSTAR and or dominant fighter at Welter right now like Tszyu was at one point, so you gotta also see what lies ahead for Cotto....
Antonio Margarito - The verdict is 50/50, those who think hes underrated and feared OR those who think hes overated and is a nobody. If Cotto beats him it won't mean much to you. Am I right?
PBF - Future is really unknown as he has stated he will fight ODLH then retire. ::** This here IS THE ONLY NAME available at this moment for Cotto to add on his resume that will not only top BUT blow Hattons win over Tszyu out of the water.
Paul Williams - Still to be tested, is a contender at this point. If Cotto beats him it won't mean much to you. Am I right?
Kermit Cintron - Current IBF paper champ, holds a vacant belt has been BEATEN with every sense of the word by Margarito.
If Cotto beats him it won't mean much to you. Am I right?
So you see at this time there really isn't a dominant name in the Welters, theres only PBF but we know where hes headed. The only thing that is apparent to me is that Cotto will become THAT dominant force I'am talking about, he will become THAT next big name.
So you see Hatton had Tszyu to beat, who does Cotto have to beat thats representative of Tszyus caliber?
CC, except I'd add that the old, injured Tszyu that Hatton beat wasn't of the prime Tszyu's caliber either. Hatton's never beaten a world class fighter in his prime, just like Cotto. But Cotto's beaten a lot more good, solid, young, up-and-comers than Hatton has. And after watching each of their last 6 fights or so, I don't see any way Hatton lasts more than 6 or 7 rounds with Cotto at 147. And I don't see him lasting 12 at 140 either. Cotto, unlike the Tszyu that Hatton fought, is at his prime. And he hits harder than even a prime Tszyu did--easily. He also--as someone else here pointed out--doesn't need the room to punch that Tszyu needed. And he's bigger and stronger than Hatton and couldn't be pushed around by him--even at 140.
I'd love to see it--if only because so many people here are irrationally picking Hatton to win AT 147 (??!!!). Of course we
won't ever see it, because Hatton's more realistic than a lot of these posters about his abilities at 147.
cc#125 for you...
IMO, I don't discredit Tszyu during the Hatton fight, injuries and all that are just part of it. Yes he was past his best days but would he have won then what? ? So I do fully credit Hatton for that one, but like I said you can't ride on one win alone.
Yes I agree with you Cottos in his prime, Tszyu was past it. It would be 2 totally different fight for Hatton.
At 140 I think both Hatton & Cotto are about the same as far as body structure, Hatton being a little more stalky.... But both having some type of weight issues, Hatton staying away from the pubs and blowing up willingly and Cotto just tryin to keep his natural body weight down both fighters making sacrifices. At 147 I don't think I need to elaborate much on that as were all aware of whats happened.
About Hatton being more realistic about his abilities at 147, though I don't question Hattons heart and if you ask me Hatton would fight Cotto at whatever weight 140 or 147, at 140 it will never happen now the only thing is for Hatton to give 147 another go which would be really risky.
The thing here is that Hatton will be stuck at 140 and will close out his career with 1 BIG win over an A class fighter and the rest a bunch of C possibly one B class fighter in there..... But thats about it the sad part about it IMO is that Hatton had what it took to make the end of his career a great one and he blew it. I see what hes doing and what he has in mind, hes gonna ride the 140 division 'till the end closing out his career with a fight against either JLC or Witter for an all English/European showdown. Before his last fight he'll probably fight Demetrius Hopkins and or possibly Vivian Harris someone along those lines.....
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
I got the Feeling if Hatton and Cotto meet at 147 is gonna be like the Trinidad - Vargas fight. ( that was a hell of a fight) but I see Cotto edges him
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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CC, except I'd add that the old, injured Tszyu that Hatton beat wasn't of the prime Tszyu's caliber either. Hatton's never beaten a world class fighter in his prime, just like Cotto. But Cotto's beaten a lot more good, solid, young, up-and-comers than Hatton has. And after watching each of their last 6 fights or so, I don't see any way Hatton lasts more than 6 or 7 rounds with Cotto at 147. And I don't see him lasting 12 at 140 either. Cotto, unlike the Tszyu that Hatton fought, is at his prime. And he hits harder than even a prime Tszyu did--easily. He also--as someone else here pointed out--doesn't need the room to punch that Tszyu needed. And he's bigger and stronger than Hatton and couldn't be pushed around by him--even at 140.
Which 'solid up and comers' has he beaten exactly?
A 200 year old Sosa?
A Brazilian who is known only to his immediate family?
An Italian that for some inexplicable reason seems to loiter around the WBCs mandatory slot?
Or are we talking about the heavy handed Malinaggi?
Oh, and don't tell me the likes of Bailey and Torres were tough fighters...they were only tough in hindsight because they gave Miguel a fight. Even then it's relative; is it that they were better than expected or is it perhaps Miguels hype had exceeded his achievement..?
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I'd love to see it--if only because so many people here are irrationally picking Hatton to win AT 147 (??!!!). Of course we won't ever see it, because Hatton's more realistic than a lot of these posters about his abilities at 147
What's irrational is people starting millions of threads declaring Miguel the next big thing when he's only beat Quintana ::**
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
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CC, except I'd add that the old, injured Tszyu that Hatton beat wasn't of the prime Tszyu's caliber either. Hatton's never beaten a world class fighter in his prime, just like Cotto. But Cotto's beaten a lot more good, solid, young, up-and-comers than Hatton has. And after watching each of their last 6 fights or so, I don't see any way Hatton lasts more than 6 or 7 rounds with Cotto at 147. And I don't see him lasting 12 at 140 either. Cotto, unlike the Tszyu that Hatton fought, is at his prime. And he hits harder than even a prime Tszyu did--easily. He also--as someone else here pointed out--doesn't need the room to punch that Tszyu needed. And he's bigger and stronger than Hatton and couldn't be pushed around by him--even at 140.
Which 'solid up and comers' has he beaten exactly?
A 200 year old Sosa?
A Brazilian who is known only to his immediate family?
An Italian that for some inexplicable reason seems to loiter around the WBCs mandatory slot?
Or are we talking about the heavy handed Malinaggi?
Oh, and don't tell me the likes of Bailey and Torres were tough fighters...they were only tough in hindsight because they gave Miguel a fight. Even then it's relative; is it that they were better than expected or is it perhaps Miguels hype had exceeded his achievement..?
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I'd love to see it--if only because so many people here are irrationally picking Hatton to win AT 147 (??!!!). Of course we won't ever see it, because Hatton's more realistic than a lot of these posters about his abilities at 147
What's irrational is people starting millions of threads declaring Miguel the next big thing when he's only beat Quintana ::**
Again these threads are just saying he'd beat Hatton, stop changing the meanings
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
I'm not changing the meanings. The boards full of threads going overboard after Miguels win...
What I wanna know is where were all the Cotto fans when he's was scraping past the likes of Bailey and Torres?
Did somebody say bandwagon..?
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
I'm not changing the meanings. The boards full of threads going overboard after Miguels win...
What I wanna know is where were all the Cotto fans when he's was scraping past the likes of Bailey and Torres?
Did somebody say bandwagon..?
I don't see how this is any different than when any other fighter wins convincingly.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
I'm not changing the meanings. The boards full of threads going overboard after Miguels win...
What I wanna know is where were all the Cotto fans when he's was scraping past the likes of Bailey and Torres?
Did somebody say bandwagon..?
Nope not at all Against Torres he showed tremendous heart and worked through adversity and gutted it out...Whats wrong with that?? He wore Torres out and he took the 10 count
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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I don't see how this is any different than when any other fighter wins convincingly.
Indeed, he won convincingly against a guy who he was expected to win convincingly against. Big deal.
All the pre fight stuff bigging up Quintana was rubbish. We all knew it. If you bought it, then more fool you. Arums not gonna risk Miguel after this long building him up. The timings all wrong.
Y'know, I don't mind watching fighters learning thier trade. I can understand that. I just don't like having the wool pulled over my eyes. After years of Frank Warrens stewardship, I think Hatton fans are more experienced than most at spotting 'fillers'.
Quintana was nothing more than a tentative step into 147. Lets not dress it as anything more.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
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I don't see how this is any different than when any other fighter wins convincingly.
Indeed, he won convincingly against a guy who he was expected to win convincingly against. Big deal.
All the pre fight stuff bigging up Quintana was rubbish. We all knew it. If you bought it, then more fool you. Arums not gonna risk Miguel after this long building him up. The timings all wrong.
Y'know, I don't mind watching fighters learning thier trade. I can understand that. I just don't like having the wool pulled over my eyes. After years of Frank Warrens stewardship, I think Hatton fans are more experienced than most at spotting 'fillers'.
Quintana was nothing more than a tentative step into 147. Lets not dress it as anything more.
OK then who would he have fought, that would not have been a filler?
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
Well, Harris for one...but Cotto gave up his mandatory slot for a shot a Kelson Pinto and the lightly regarded (on that side of the pond anyway) WBO belt...
Here's what I also said yesterday:
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Well if your argument is going to be 'who else was there?' - he didn't have to 'make do' at 140. He could of stepped up to 147 a lot sooner. It's no secret he's struggled with the weight for some time.
So he could've also moved up. Plenty of talent at 147...and 12 months ago that also meant a lot of the 140lb old guard. The weight differential would've still been in Miguels favour.
AND...If he's such a monster at 147 why've they waited this long to step him up?
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
Well, Harris for one...but Cotto gave up his mandatory slot for a shot a Kelson Pinto and the lightly regarded (on that side of the pond anyway) WBO belt...
Vivian Harris? The one that got KOed by Carlos Maussa?
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
Harris was and still is dangerous opposition. You know why Maussa beat him ;)
So why didn't he step up to 147 sooner?
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
Harris was and still is dangerous opposition. You know why Maussa beat him ;)
So why didn't he step up to 147 sooner?
I agree he should have stepped up earlier, I'll give you that.
So now you have to explain to me how Vivian Harris is better competition that Carlos Quintana. Especially at 147.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
Harris was and still is dangerous opposition. You know why Maussa beat him ;)
So why didn't he step up to 147 sooner?
Maussa sucks but Harris sucks even more. That's why Maussa beat him. Vivian Harris? Talk about reaching.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
I'm not changing the meanings. The boards full of threads going overboard after Miguels win...
What I wanna know is where were all the Cotto fans when he's was scraping past the likes of Bailey and Torres?
Did somebody say bandwagon..?
Well for one I've been here all this time, since the begining as soon as I have a chance I'll dig up ALL my Cotto posts. I started following his career since he fought Arturo Rodriguez.... Haven't missed a SINGLE fight since....
I'm telling YES! you are right Hatton does have a bigger name in his resume (Tszyu) thats about it ALL other names in both resumes are about the same....
Fact of the matter here is that 'We will never know cause, they are NEVER fighting eachother..... :)
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Danny_G
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Originally Posted by Steelie
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I think you need to look up Cotto's resume....you either are a HUGE Hatton nut hugger and refuse to acknowledge Cotto's achievements or just plain out don't know much about Cotto's opponents,nearly all of whom have been good.
I think
you need to be honest about Cottos resume ;)
Care to pick any particular opponent that stands out?
Until Hatton can prove he is even remotely a force at 147 there is no need to go into resumes but since you want to go there,
Carlos Quintana knocked out Edwin Cassiani.
Edwin Cassiani TKO'ed Luis Collazo.
Miguel Cotto destroyed Carlos Quintana.
Hi, this is my first post, but can I just say that you're a fool.
X beat Y and Y beat Z therefore X is the best is a poor way of deciding who is better.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
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CC, except I'd add that the old, injured Tszyu that Hatton beat wasn't of the prime Tszyu's caliber either. Hatton's never beaten a world class fighter in his prime, just like Cotto. But Cotto's beaten a lot more good, solid, young, up-and-comers than Hatton has. And after watching each of their last 6 fights or so, I don't see any way Hatton lasts more than 6 or 7 rounds with Cotto at 147. And I don't see him lasting 12 at 140 either. Cotto, unlike the Tszyu that Hatton fought, is at his prime. And he hits harder than even a prime Tszyu did--easily. He also--as someone else here pointed out--doesn't need the room to punch that Tszyu needed. And he's bigger and stronger than Hatton and couldn't be pushed around by him--even at 140.
Which 'solid up and comers' has he beaten exactly?
Basically everyone in his last 6 fights minus Branco. Corley, Abdulaev, Torres, Malignaggi and Quintana had a combined record of 101-4-1. They're all better than most of the competition Hatton's faced too. If Corley's too seasoned to be included, take away 3 of those losses and the draw.
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Originally Posted by Steelie
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I'd love to see it--if only because so many people here are irrationally picking Hatton to win AT 147 (??!!!). Of course we won't ever see it, because Hatton's more realistic than a lot of these posters about his abilities at 147
What's irrational is people starting millions of threads declaring Miguel the next big thing when he's only beat Quintana ::**
Sure, but actually no one is starting a million threads declaring Miguel to be "the next big thing." Someone did start this thread about Miguel being able to beat Hatton at the weight that Collazo beat him at a couple months ago, preceding Hatton's high-tailing it back to 140.
Here's the situation:
Hatton comes to 147, fights a decent, slick, but completely feather-fisted (13 kos) fighter in Collazo. Looks considerably worse than at 140. Nearly gets stopped toward the end of the fight, gets a draw at best, but gets a small gift decision--then runs as fast as he can back to 140, shouting back over his shoulder that "140 is his real weight" and that "he's giving away too many advantages at 147."
Cotto comes to 147, fights a pretty good, undefeated, slick boxer with some KO power (18/23 kos), and destroys him in 5 rounds without getting scratched. Looks better than he did at 147.
And you're telling me that it's not irrational to nonetheless pick Hatton over Cotto at 147. You have a lot of explaining to do. And comparing Hatton's record fighting a past-his-prime Tszyu and a bunch of tomato cans in England at 140 pounds to Cotto's resume at 140 pounds doesn't even begin that conversation. Hatton is not like Floyd, who relies on speed and boxing ability so size doesn't matter all that much. Hatton relies on bullying opponents and running into them head-first, which doesn't work against bigger dudes.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
Hatton is tough so I think he will absorb the punishment and last to the later rounds or even perhaps the end. He will bleed heavily for his efforts.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
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Originally Posted by Steelie
I'm not changing the meanings. The boards full of threads going overboard after Miguels win...
What I wanna know is where were all the Cotto fans when he's was scraping past the likes of Bailey and Torres?
Did somebody say bandwagon..?
Well for one I've been here all this time, since the begining as soon as I have a chance I'll dig up ALL my Cotto posts. I started following his career since he fought Arturo Rodriguez.... Haven't missed a SINGLE fight since....
I'm telling YES! you are right Hatton does have a bigger name in his resume (Tszyu) thats about it ALL other names in both resumes are about the same....
Fact of the matter here is that 'We will never know cause, they are NEVER fighting eachother..... :)
I'm not even trying to compare records CMM. It's a moot excersise...like I said, I'm happy to conceed that the vast majority of Hattons are less than stellar. I'd like to see the same honesty from the Cotto fans. Nobody Miguel has faced is world class and I honestly can't see how anyone can say otherwise
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Basically everyone in his last 6 fights minus Branco. Corley, Abdulaev, Torres, Malignaggi and Quintana had a combined record of 101-4-1.
I could go to the effort of checking thier records on Boxrec but I'll hazard a guess that there's enough tomato cans in there to keep Heinz going for the forseeable...
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And you're telling me that it's not irrational to nonetheless pick Hatton over Cotto at 147. You have a lot of explaining to do. And comparing Hatton's record fighting a past-his-prime Tszyu and a bunch of tomato cans in England at 140 pounds to Cotto's resume at 140 pounds doesn't even begin that conversation. Hatton is not like Floyd, who relies on speed and boxing ability so size doesn't matter all that much. Hatton relies on bullying opponents and running into them head-first, which doesn't work against bigger dudes.
I'm not comparing records. Hatton had his fair share of 'tune ups' so I'd be pretty hypocritical to level that at Miguel. I'm just trying to bring some clarity to Miguels actual standing. He's still learning and isn't a world beater based on the fact he's beat Quintana, albeit impressively.
Moving forward, As ardent Cotto fans you shouldn't be satisfied with the Malinaggis, Brancos and Quintanas of this world. If he's as good as you think he is then there's plenty of tests out there for him and I would kick off if any of these prospective fights fall through.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
violent demise it sounds that by your logic if mauser was shit, but harris was worse because he lost to mauser, then buster douglas was better than tyson! and zahir raheem was better than morales. harris is a much more dangerous fighter than Quintana, and in mauser it was a clasic case of a fighter losing a fight that he realy should have won had he prepared properly.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by jbirdy
violent demise it sounds that by your logic if mauser was shit, but harris was worse because he lost to mauser, then buster douglas was better than tyson! and zahir raheem was better than morales. harris is a much more dangerous fighter than Quintana, and in mauser it was a clasic case of a fighter losing a fight that he realy should have won had he prepared properly.
Here's what I don't understand: Harris came into this when I asked the question (still unanswered really)
who would Cotto have moved up to fight that wasn't filler? Harris if I recall correctly was a Light Welter that never fought at welter.
And how can you compare Harris to Tyson or Morales?
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
harris wasn't being compared to tyson or morales. his fight with mauser was being compared to tyson's with douglas and morales's with raheem. it was an example of fights when the guy who was the better fighter on the night won when that fighter was not necessarrily the best of the two fighters. in other words mate douglas beat tyson because of tyson's poor preperation and lack of training and just because douglas beat tyson does not by any means mean that he was a better fighter. the same example aplies to morales vs raheem and harris vs mauser and hundred of other fights before and since mate. just because mauser beat harris does not make him a better fighter and harris was a very under rated champ and is still an under rated fighter. as if i even had to explain myself for that post. un fuckin beleivable.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by jbirdy
violent demise it sounds that by your logic if mauser was shit, but harris was worse because he lost to mauser, then buster douglas was better than tyson! and zahir raheem was better than morales. harris is a much more dangerous fighter than Quintana, and in mauser it was a clasic case of a fighter losing a fight that he realy should have won had he prepared properly.
Here's what I don't understand: Harris came into this when I asked the question (still unanswered really)
who would Cotto have moved up to fight that wasn't filler? Harris if I recall correctly was a Light Welter that never fought at welter.
Harris was an example of who else Miguel could of fought at lightwelter, let alone at 147.
If were talking about 147 and remember were talking about a certain point in history, then he could've fought any of the guys that Mayweather went on to fight - Mitchell, Gatti, Judah...yet they chose to keep him at 147 and fight Randell Bailey ::**
So, we can only summise that despite Miguel struggling with the weight that they knew he wasn't ready for that step up both literally and metaphorically.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by jbirdy
harris wasn't being compared to tyson or morales. his fight with mauser was being compared to tyson's with douglas and morales's with raheem. it was an example of fights when the guy who was the better fighter on the night won when that fighter was not necessarrily the best of the two fighters. in other words mate douglas beat tyson because of tyson's poor preperation and lack of training and just because douglas beat tyson does not by any means mean that he was a better fighter. the same example aplies to morales vs raheem and harris vs mauser and hundred of other fights before and since mate. just because mauser beat harris does not make him a better fighter and harris was a very under rated champ and is still an under rated fighter. as if i even had to explain myself for that post. un fuckin beleivable.
But on those nights Buster and Zahir WERE the better fighters. Buster outboxed Tyson, en route to a victory, if tyson was ill-prepared, I can't give him any credit anyway, he had plenty of time to train. Part of being a good boxer is preparing for your fights, guess whose fault it is if you are unprepared. As for Zahir, he just plain beat Morales, and as such was the better fighter that night.
I am still waiting for someone to explain why Harris is better than Quintana.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
To determine who is better they would have to fight. Harris clearly has the better record though.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by jbirdy
violent demise it sounds that by your logic if mauser was shit, but harris was worse because he lost to mauser, then buster douglas was better than tyson! and zahir raheem was better than morales. harris is a much more dangerous fighter than Quintana, and in mauser it was a clasic case of a fighter losing a fight that he realy should have won had he prepared properly.
Here's what I don't understand: Harris came into this when I asked the question (still unanswered really)
who would Cotto have moved up to fight that wasn't filler? Harris if I recall correctly was a Light Welter that never fought at welter.
Harris was an example of who else Miguel could of fought at lightwelter, let alone at 147.
If were talking about 147 and remember were talking about a certain point in history, then he could've fought any of the guys that Mayweather went on to fight - Mitchell, Gatti, Judah...yet they chose to keep him at 147 and fight Randell Bailey ::**
So, we can only summise that despite Miguel struggling with the weight that they knew he wasn't ready for that step up both literally and metaphorically.
We are still talking about the last fight though right?
So maybe I am mistaken here, but you're saying that at this point in time, he would have done better to fight
Mitchell - Lost 3 of his last 5, and is now 36 years old.
Gatti - Lost 2 of his last 3, and is now 34 years old.
Judah - Lost his last 2, is currently on suspension.
Bottom line is this, Cotto took the best fight available to him at 147.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
No I'm saying at that for the past 2 years he's struggled with the weight and could've moved up to fight any of the aforementioned (prior to the losses you mention and whilst they still carried a lot of thier lustre) yet he didn't he stayed at 140 and fought tenuous fringe contenders...
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
No I'm saying at that for the past 2 years he's struggled with the weight and could've moved up to fight any of the aforementioned (prior to the losses you mention and whilst they still carried a lot of thier lustre) yet he didn't he stayed at 140 and fought tenuous fringe contenders...
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by Steelie
So why didn't he step up to 147 sooner?
I agree he should have stepped up earlier, I'll give you that.
But he didn't, spilled milk and what not, don't see the relevance of that to the topic of the thread though
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
The cold truth is that you can never, with 100% accuracy, predict the outcome of a fair fight. Comparing opponents and who did what when and who did what better is all truly moot come fight night.
If it weren't, then there would be no such thing as an upset! The outcome of matches could be determined without the fighters in question ever stepping into a ring, thus eliminating a great number of bouts.
Sure, a lot of times it's easy to predict who's gonna win, but the great thing is - you never know until you get in the ring and find out.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by Steelie
No I'm saying at that for the past 2 years he's struggled with the weight and could've moved up to fight any of the aforementioned (prior to the losses you mention and whilst they still carried a lot of thier lustre) yet he didn't he stayed at 140 and fought tenuous fringe contenders...
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by Steelie
So why didn't he step up to 147 sooner?
I agree he should have stepped up earlier, I'll give you that.
But he didn't, spilled milk and what not, don't see the relevance of that to the topic of the thread though
The relevance is that how can certain quarters predict a comprehensive Cotto win when he hasn't mixed it with anything like elite level competition yet. Yes he looked classy at 147...but it was Quintana in there not ODH.
I'm also asking the question that if they knew he was going to be such a monster at 147 then why didn't they step him up sooner?
Didn't he even weigh in over for one of his recent fights?
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
Ill tell you what if this fight was such a big issue then why didnt it happen straight after the tszyu fight? both were champs undeafted and hungry. Ill tell you this Hatton has made the wrong choice going back down to 140 imo! he should be looking for the bigger fights and keeping up with the fighters he should be fighting. Im not 100% sure about this one but have any of these 2 fighters called each other out? Imo cottos record wont stay undeafted if he goes for Margarito ;D
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Steelie
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by Steelie
No I'm saying at that for the past 2 years he's struggled with the weight and could've moved up to fight any of the aforementioned (prior to the losses you mention and whilst they still carried a lot of thier lustre) yet he didn't he stayed at 140 and fought tenuous fringe contenders...
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by Steelie
So why didn't he step up to 147 sooner?
I agree he should have stepped up earlier, I'll give you that.
But he didn't, spilled milk and what not, don't see the relevance of that to the topic of the thread though
The relevance is that how can certain quarters predict a comprehensive Cotto win when he hasn't mixed it with anything like elite level competition yet. Yes he looked classy at 147...but it was Quintana in there not ODH.
I'm also asking the question that if they knew he was going to be such a monster at 147 then why didn't they step him up sooner?
Didn't he even weigh in over for one of his recent fights?
Had to check boxrec to see if he came in over, there are no weights listed for his fight against Branco, so it's possible it was that one, but all of his other fights he was within the limit. As for why he didn't move up sooner, you are not going to find this answer here. You need to ask his peeps why he did that. Try the Miguel Cotto fan board.
After all of this on here, I will state the following:
Cotto destroys Hatton at 147, just my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.
Cotto beats Hatton at 140, if it's not in Manchester and provided Cotto could make weight.
Both guys destroy Vivian Harris at 140 or 147.
The reason I bring up the Manchester thing is this. Fighters there are allowed to get away with things, that aren't allowed in other countries. Hatton has had only experience fighting there (Collazo fight, the exception of course), his style is based on being able to make those exceptions. When those things are taken away, he doesn't have the advatages anymore. It makes it more difficult for him to apply pressure when he can't hold and hit as much.
This is not a knock on the Manchester boxing people, all places have hometown judges, all places let some things pass. So I guess since I can't answer your question about Cotto not stepping up to 147 earlier, I will simply pose a question to you. Why didn't Hatton leave the UK sooner?
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Tam Seddon
Ill tell you what if this fight was such a big issue then why didnt it happen straight after the tszyu fight? both were champs undeafted and hungry. Ill tell you this Hatton has made the wrong choice going back down to 140 imo! he should be looking for the bigger fights and keeping up with the fighters he should be fighting. Im not 100% sure about this one but have any of these 2 fighters called each other out? Imo cottos record wont stay undeafted if he goes for Margarito ;D
I disagree, Hatton should stay at 140, there are very tempting opportunities at 147 agreed, but I'm not so sure his body can handle being in fighting shape at 147 and still be effective. Hatton should fight where he is comfortable.
If he had an opportunity to properly train for 147 and grow into it, that fight may change my opinion, but the only thing
I have to go on at 147 is Collazo, and I agree that wasn't even close to being the same Ricky from 140.
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by Tam Seddon
Ill tell you what if this fight was such a big issue then why didnt it happen straight after the tszyu fight? both were champs undeafted and hungry. Ill tell you this Hatton has made the wrong choice going back down to 140 imo! he should be looking for the bigger fights and keeping up with the fighters he should be fighting. Im not 100% sure about this one but have any of these 2 fighters called each other out? Imo cottos record wont stay undeafted if he goes for Margarito ;D
I disagree, Hatton should stay at 140, there are very tempting opportunities at 147 agreed, but I'm not so sure his body can handle being in fighting shape at 147 and still be effective. Hatton should fight where he is comfortable.
If he had an opportunity to properly train for 147 and grow into it, that fight may change my opinion, but the only thing
I have to go on at 147 is Collazo, and I agree that wasn't even close to being the same Ricky from 140.
Thing is Greg he only had 6 weeks so it would be tough. If you did something first time you cant always say its not always going to be perfect. Hatton fought at 140 all his life so i change would be different and until hatton can cope with this change there is little point in him fighting.
Imo i would prefer hatton to fight (and maybe lose) at 147 against the big boys (cotto, mayweather etc) but atleast he is showing us he is trying and he can go out swinging. I would prefer to see this to him staying at 140 and in MOST! cases winning safely. A fight with cotto at 147 would secure him a fat wage! why doesnt he go for him? he has a chance of course he does. Hatton imo should haven taken his mandatory against whatever his name was orkal is it? and then seen how it had gone after that. Luiz was a tough fight, until we know more about him and see him in another big name fight we cant fully judge him. But hatton still won the fight against somebody who had been fighting at 147 a lot longer than himself. Hatton was the challenger as well and i think some of you forget this. At the end of the day hatton won the fight and what a dumb thing he has done going back to 140 :(
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Tam Seddon
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by Tam Seddon
Ill tell you what if this fight was such a big issue then why didnt it happen straight after the tszyu fight? both were champs undeafted and hungry. Ill tell you this Hatton has made the wrong choice going back down to 140 imo! he should be looking for the bigger fights and keeping up with the fighters he should be fighting. Im not 100% sure about this one but have any of these 2 fighters called each other out? Imo cottos record wont stay undeafted if he goes for Margarito ;D
I disagree, Hatton should stay at 140, there are very tempting opportunities at 147 agreed, but I'm not so sure his body can handle being in fighting shape at 147 and still be effective. Hatton should fight where he is comfortable.
If he had an opportunity to properly train for 147 and grow into it, that fight may change my opinion, but the only thing
I have to go on at 147 is Collazo, and I agree that wasn't even close to being the same Ricky from 140.
Thing is Greg he only had 6 weeks so it would be tough. If you did something first time you cant always say its not always going to be perfect. Hatton fought at 140 all his life so i change would be different and until hatton can cope with this change there is little point in him fighting.
Imo i would prefer hatton to fight (and maybe lose) at 147 against the big boys (cotto, mayweather etc) but atleast he is showing us he is trying and he can go out swinging. I would prefer to see this to him staying at 140 and in MOST! cases winning safely. A fight with cotto at 147 would secure him a fat wage! why doesnt he go for him? he has a chance of course he does. Hatton imo should haven taken his mandatory against whatever his name was orkal is it? and then seen how it had gone after that. Luiz was a tough fight, until we know more about him and see him in another big name fight we cant fully judge him. But hatton still won the fight against somebody who had been fighting at 147 a lot longer than himself. Hatton was the challenger as well and i think some of you forget this. At the end of the day hatton won the fight and what a dumb thing he has done going back to 140 :(
very well argued :appl: :coolclick:
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Had to check boxrec to see if he came in over, there are no weights listed for his fight against Branco, so it's possible it was that one, but all of his other fights he was within the limit. As for why he didn't move up sooner, you are not going to find this answer here. You need to ask his peeps why he did that. Try the Miguel Cotto fan board.
I've been a member there for ages...they won't know either. Maybe Rolando might, but the questions hypothetical anyway. I put it to you that he didn't move up because he simply wasn't ready to mix with the fighters that were hanging at 147 at the time. It's a lot easier to say 'there was no one left decent to fight at 140 so we made the best of it' than it is to say 'he's still learning and isn't ready for the big boys yet'...
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After all of this on here, I will state the following:
Cotto destroys Hatton at 147, just my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.
Cotto beats Hatton at 140, if it's not in Manchester and provided Cotto could make weight.
Both guys destroy Vivian Harris at 140 or 147.
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The reason I bring up the Manchester thing is this. Fighters there are allowed to get away with things, that aren't allowed in other countries. Hatton has had only experience fighting there (Collazo fight, the exception of course), his style is based on being able to make those exceptions. When those things are taken away, he doesn't have the advatages anymore. It makes it more difficult for him to apply pressure when he can't hold and hit as much.
Surely you're not that naive? ;D
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This is not a knock on the Manchester boxing people, all places have hometown judges, all places let some things pass. So I guess since I can't answer your question about Cotto not stepping up to 147 earlier, I will simply pose a question to you. Why didn't Hatton leave the UK sooner?
Simple...for the same reason Miguel fights wherever he can draw the biggest crowd - $$$$
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by miles
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Originally Posted by Tam Seddon
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by Tam Seddon
Ill tell you what if this fight was such a big issue then why didnt it happen straight after the tszyu fight? both were champs undeafted and hungry. Ill tell you this Hatton has made the wrong choice going back down to 140 imo! he should be looking for the bigger fights and keeping up with the fighters he should be fighting. Im not 100% sure about this one but have any of these 2 fighters called each other out? Imo cottos record wont stay undeafted if he goes for Margarito ;D
I disagree, Hatton should stay at 140, there are very tempting opportunities at 147 agreed, but I'm not so sure his body can handle being in fighting shape at 147 and still be effective. Hatton should fight where he is comfortable.
If he had an opportunity to properly train for 147 and grow into it, that fight may change my opinion, but the only thing
I have to go on at 147 is Collazo, and I agree that wasn't even close to being the same Ricky from 140.
Thing is Greg he only had 6 weeks so it would be tough. If you did something first time you cant always say its not always going to be perfect. Hatton fought at 140 all his life so i change would be different and until hatton can cope with this change there is little point in him fighting.
Imo i would prefer hatton to fight (and maybe lose) at 147 against the big boys (cotto, mayweather etc) but atleast he is showing us he is trying and he can go out swinging. I would prefer to see this to him staying at 140 and in MOST! cases winning safely. A fight with cotto at 147 would secure him a fat wage! why doesnt he go for him? he has a chance of course he does. Hatton imo should haven taken his mandatory against whatever his name was orkal is it? and then seen how it had gone after that. Luiz was a tough fight, until we know more about him and see him in another big name fight we cant fully judge him. But hatton still won the fight against somebody who had been fighting at 147 a lot longer than himself. Hatton was the challenger as well and i think some of you forget this. At the end of the day hatton won the fight and what a dumb thing he has done going back to 140 :(
very well argued :appl: :coolclick:
cc back miles nearly on 100 now! but hatton really does need to think before he could make the biggest mistake of his life...with legacy etc!
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by El Gamo
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Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Based on there last fights. Cotto has Hatton in a hospital by the 3rd round
LMAO,Hatton is a tough tough guy,surely you think he would last longer? He was able to take Tszyu's shots? (WTF am I semi defending Ricky?! ??? ;D) Hatton also maintains a relentless pace and has good bodyshots,my ONLY worry would be whether the pace would be too much for Cotto? That's the only Q I have left for my boy.
IMO at 147 Cotto would win the fight pretty easy and pretty quick, Collazo has no real power and wobbled Hatton badly, Cotto is IMO a bigger puncher than all, Tzyu, Collazo, and even Ricky Hatton, at 140 Hatton would last until the later rounds and probably get stopped but could possibly survive to loose by decision, but at 147 Cotto will break Hatton's body, mangle his face, and then leave with another win on his record
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Re: Hatton v Cotto@147-what do you think?
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Originally Posted by Tam Seddon
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Originally Posted by miles
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Originally Posted by Tam Seddon
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Originally Posted by killersheep
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Originally Posted by Tam Seddon
Ill tell you what if this fight was such a big issue then why didnt it happen straight after the tszyu fight? both were champs undeafted and hungry. Ill tell you this Hatton has made the wrong choice going back down to 140 imo! he should be looking for the bigger fights and keeping up with the fighters he should be fighting. Im not 100% sure about this one but have any of these 2 fighters called each other out? Imo cottos record wont stay undeafted if he goes for Margarito ;D
I disagree, Hatton should stay at 140, there are very tempting opportunities at 147 agreed, but I'm not so sure his body can handle being in fighting shape at 147 and still be effective. Hatton should fight where he is comfortable.
If he had an opportunity to properly train for 147 and grow into it, that fight may change my opinion, but the only thing
I have to go on at 147 is Collazo, and I agree that wasn't even close to being the same Ricky from 140.
Thing is Greg he only had 6 weeks so it would be tough. If you did something first time you cant always say its not always going to be perfect. Hatton fought at 140 all his life so i change would be different and until hatton can cope with this change there is little point in him fighting.
Imo i would prefer hatton to fight (and maybe lose) at 147 against the big boys (cotto, mayweather etc) but atleast he is showing us he is trying and he can go out swinging. I would prefer to see this to him staying at 140 and in MOST! cases winning safely. A fight with cotto at 147 would secure him a fat wage! why doesnt he go for him? he has a chance of course he does. Hatton imo should haven taken his mandatory against whatever his name was orkal is it? and then seen how it had gone after that. Luiz was a tough fight, until we know more about him and see him in another big name fight we cant fully judge him. But hatton still won the fight against somebody who had been fighting at 147 a lot longer than himself. Hatton was the challenger as well and i think some of you forget this. At the end of the day hatton won the fight and what a dumb thing he has done going back to 140 :(
very well argued :appl: :coolclick:
cc back miles nearly on 100 now! but hatton really does need to think before he could make the biggest mistake of his life...with legacy etc!
Doing good, mate!! ;)
I am a Hatton fan, but the whole going up to 147 and then having a tricky fight and going immediately back down again....well, it reeks of conservatism. As you say why not try out against the mandatory with more time to fill into the weight? But, no. Straight back down to 140 to fight....who exactly??? ;D
