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If Lewis wanted to make a statement then he would have done it quicker, do not make excuses for his over cautiuouness.
Tyson peak was shorter and when he was younger but that does not mean he would not beat Lewis. All I am saying is that Lennox would not have been complacent as he was with his two defeats, he would have protected himself to loose a UD against a peak Tyson, if he opened up he would have got caught, hurt and stopped. Tyson could fight fully for 12 or 15 rounds at his best.
Well considering he never fought 15 rounds you can't be certain on that 15 rounds is a big difference it would be hard for Tyson to go 15 rounds with the amount of energy he uses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
And i don't know why you think Lewis would just go into defensive shell and throw no punches Lewis has never been scared of anyone he would jab jab jab move and if Tyson come bobbing and weaving in he would launch that uppercut that Tyson was open for Lewis at his best always rised to the occasion.
Tyson was due to go 15 with Tyrell Biggs but he annihilated him in 7.
If Lewis opened up with an uppercut he would have got caught with a right hand similar to the ones landed by McCall and Rachman. Thus he would be on his backfoot throughout the fight looking for openings but too cautious to use them.
Yes but what has that got to do with Tyson being able to do 15 rounds easy ?? Biggs was a punch bag after first round for some unknown reason he stopped moving and using his jab after he had won first round using the same tactics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
So Lewis would have just tried to survive against Tyson and not throw anything ?? whatever.
If Douglas could outbox a prime mike tyson then a prime Lewis should not have any problems
The Tyson that fought Douglas had no head movement, did not throw combinations and was not the same fighter that had fought in his other previous defences. It was plain to see. His outside life did begin to affect his boxing.
Lewis is cautious by nature and I see the his fight with Tyson going the same way(ish) as the Tucker fight when he fought Tyson. A UD for Tyson.
You think that was prime Tyson in that ring with Douglas??Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
After 65 votes - Tyson is winning this debate 57% to 43%
Tyson will always be the man and it doesnt matter that Lennox beat an over the hill Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Tyson did his work in his early and wonderfully explosive years.
What happened after is a shame but should not allow for revisionism Khruschev style...
Fancy seeing you here ;D
Ahem. Just browsing :-\ ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
yes lewis said that but he also said he wanted to punish him for what he said about his kids and he bit him jeez i would wana punish him aswell and it doesnt matter how long it took lewis to stop past it tyson it wasnt close so who cares ?? prime for prime like i said its pick em its either tyson early or lewis lateQuote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
[/quote]
But Lennox was unmarried and had no children at the time, so I don't think he was punishing him for that.
For me Lennox would have emulated the performance we saw against any version of Tyson. Sure the younger tyson improvised more movement, more defence and more emphasis on setting up his power punches, but he's still a much shorter fighter that would walk into Lewis' jab and right uppercut. Lennox was an incredibly strong man, he was very precise and against the younger Tyson i feel all he would of had to do would be to draw mike into the deeper rounds. Mike expended, in fact wasted a lot of energy when he threw so many punches early, missed a good percentage and his sheer aggression also burned fuel at the source. He would have tired himself out, get cut again and would not have survived the twelve, thats my opinion.
Tyson naturally slowed his onslaught after a number of rounds but he caused a lot of damage during those early rounds and I disagree with you when you state he wasted his punches. The opponents were too bloodied and battered to capitalise and his work rate did not drop off drastically in any event. He did tend to get into clinches more and throw less combinations but he could do 12 and even 15 rounds if anyone was able to take him there. Very few were able to do that. It was not who he fought that made him a potential great it was the way he fought and the manner of his victories that demonstare that he was greater than Lennox Lewis.
How do you know he could do it for 15 rounds ?? well if thats the case then Tyson would of been in alot of trouble in fight with Bonecrusher would of been 15 rounds because he was in quite alot of trouble at the end of the 12th round 15 rounds and 12 rounds are totally different you can't say for sure that Tyson would be able to do 15 rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
The opponents were too bloodied and battered to capitalise and his work rate did not drop off drastically in any event
No they didn't capitalise because they didn't fight simple as most of Tyson's opponents went into defensive shell except for a few like Tillis who gave Tyson very tough arguement and Tucker but he stopped fighting after 4 rounds and went into defensive shell aswell.
it was the way he fought and the manner of his victories that demonstare that he was greater than Lennox Lewis.
And what victories were these you mean Berbick ?? who was koed in 1 round before Tyson done it ?? or Spinks who shouldn't of even had the title getting 2 gift decisions off a faded old Holmes.
Or maybe Holmes who was 2 years ring rusty and had short time to prepare for the fight only a couple of weeks ?? what about Thomas who had just got rehab or Tubbs who had 2 weeks to prepare and looked like a blown up ballon ??
Lennox has a great legacy and is there for the greater boxer but a prime tyson is a tall order for anyone.
Well Master, there are two points contained within ur post that i wholeheartedly agree with.
1)The opponents were too bloodied and battered to capitalise
2)It was not who he fought that made him a potential great it was the way he fought and the manner of his victories .
I think those were spot on analogys there.
However, i have to disagree. Now i don't want to be mistaken as a Lewis fan. I hated him at the time in which he was active, i was a huge tyson fan. (Now in his retirement i respect the hell outta Lewis and look up his fights a lot.)
But i do feel in hindsight he was better than Mike. Mike was a great fighter, a force inside the ring, but for ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Lennox was the antithisis of everything Mike was.
Mike was aggresive, Lennox passive and calculating.
Mike loved to fight, Lennox loved to box.
Tyson wanted things over quickly, Lennox was patient.
Mike often abandoned strategy, Lewis' strategy was religion and was never abandoned merely altered.
Lewis could endure what Tyson had to give, he coyuld employ tactics which would be designed to fatigue tyson. This would frustrate Mike, he would have to continue on his quest to KO lewis, as he would be unable to box lewis effectively. It is my firm belief that tyson would simply tire and be [picked apart by a surgically efficient Lewis.
Sorry fellars...I missed this thread by a long shot...but honestly, I'll stick with Lewis for the win.Quote:
Originally Posted by TYSONBRUNO
A prime Lewis had two things that fetted Tyson into a corner & on the back foot.
#1: That jab that Lewis put into everyone's mutts.
#2: Confidence, focus, & ability.
You stand up to Mike & he's done.
I'd pick Lewis's abilities over Mike's any day. Yes Mike was fast & furious but that don't equate to shit when you've got a big skilled boxer in front of you that can think when properly focused.
As long as we are talking about a proper Lewis...I say Lennox wins.
Agreed Wacko.
I respect hitmandonny's and Wacko's opinions but the arguments by ICB do not stand merit.
If a fighter survived as Tillis and Tucker did against Tyson does not mean that Lennox would win, in fact I believe the same result would have happened Lewis would have lost on points. He had to protect his chin.
Bonecrusher landed a blow in the last seconds of the fight, and did no major damage. You could count on one hand the time Tyson was caught cleanly during his prime, he was very elusive and came at angles, his skills were brilliant.
You point weaknesses in his opponents but all he can do was beat what was in front of him and he did that with dramatic affect, he was not going to go easy on his opponents just because they had issues and nor would you expect him too.
Yep - The only fault people can pick with Tyson's prime was that so-and-so won 3 or 4 rounds or so-and-so caught with a good shot - woopydoo - it's heavyweight boxing, he couldn't win every minute of every round.
CC you although you do not need it, you got loads.
CC back FellaQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
I find myself CC'ing u again Master as u raise a point that a lot of people miss. People often speak of prime Tyson's speed, raw power, aggresion and combinations. But few recognise his incredibly well honed defence he improvised at the time. Its a pity that when he needed it most (after the releases from prison,) he seemed to abandon it.
.....the same people that say Marciano was too small to beat Tyson are the same people that say Tyson could beat a Prime Lennox Lewis....and they totally forget Lennox was 6'5 250 and Tyson was 5'10 220 ......6 inches, a whole bunch of reach and 30 pounds says Lennox would flatten Tyson no matter when their fight happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
And Butterbean would beat Muhammad Ali ;)
but the arguments by ICB do not stand merit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Neither does yours.
If a fighter survived as Tillis and Tucker did against Tyson does not mean that Lennox would win, in fact I believe the same result would have happened Lewis would have lost on points. He had to protect his chin.
Tillis won rounds and gave Tyson trouble infact Tillis was a bit unlucky because he was winning the 4th round big but then Tyson scored flash knockdown at the end of the round and that effected the scoring considering 2 judges had it 6 rounds to 4 for Tyson i believe even Tyson said the knockdown saved him so Tillis wern't just surviving he was winning rounds and fought a good fight plus Tillis was only a journeyman with an even weaker chin than Lewis's so if Tillis could go the distance with Tyson with his suspect chin and win rounds and fight a good fight why can't Lewis do an even better job ??
And all Wacko did was agree with me so i don't understand what your saying so you respect Wacko's comments for saying Lewis's would win but not mine i don't get that at all.
Id like to interrupt and say that i feel Lewis' chin may worry people more than is actually demanded. When Lewis did get stopped, it was as a result of MONSTER shots by Rahman and McCall. In Rahmans case the punch was the definition of a one hit wonder and legitimate excuses can be made.
The only reason that his lossses by stoppages are concentrated on is because Lewis didn lose on points...EVER. To beat Lewis you had to nail him to the Floor and even in the Titanic Heavyweight division only 2 could do that. (One by accident.)
So i do feel that Lennox's chin is less an issue than some might think.
Hitmandonny, he essentially abandoned it after his loss. His two one round victories against Tillman and Stewart did not show it but against Rudduck it was just hitting one another until someone fell. Whilst entertaining, his discipline and skills were not there to want to avoid the punches.
After prison he was a completely different person and systematically protected against decent fighters because he was a "cash cow" that got brutally exposed by Holyfield. But that first phase of Tyson was a potential great heavyweight and it has been said before his peak was shorter than Lewis but it created far more impact.
Tyson still had headmovement in first Ruddock fight infact thats one of Tyson's best performances except for the 6th round he punished Ruddock to the body it was a great performance from Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
He was slipping. In the second fight he had a shocking round midway where he was just taking punches for punches sake and was unlike him. Definitely the unmotivated and ill disciplined version.
I gave reasons for the Tillis performance, and everyone is allowed them, even Lewis such as against Bruno or Tucker. Not a big deal.
Agreed Lewis chin is not weak but he would be conscious of the punches after what has happened to him in the past.
I gave reasons for the Tillis performance, and everyone is allowed them, even Lewis such as against Bruno or Tucker. Not a big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
No you gave an excuse that i've never heard anyone say before not even Tyson and its pretty bad excuse at that.
Bruno is not comparable to Tyson neither is Tucker thats the difference style wise Tillis used movement and his jab and thats what near enough Lewis would do.
ICB you take my points way out of context.
For the Tillis fight the reason of the ear infection was given for his poor performance by Rooney I believe. I would believe it as he would have destroyed him if he was on top form.
I never compared Bruno and Tucker to Tyson, take time and read what I write. I said they are examples where Lewis has struggled but it did not mean he was a bad fighter. As Big H said, so he lost some rounds, so he got hit, no big deal it is boxing and it will happen.
CC,totally agree. That tells you how awesome he was in his prime,if someone survived with him,lasting 12 rounds,it was seen as a success.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Totally agree and you've made great points throughout,CC bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
For the Tillis fight the reason of the ear infection was given for his poor performance by Rooney I believe. I would believe it as he would have destroyed him if he was on top form.
I've never heard Tyson use that excuse actually Tyson said that the knockdown saved him in the Tillis fight i've never heard of that excuse by any Tyson fans or Tyson himself so i think its pretty bad excuse if you ask me.
I never compared Bruno and Tucker to Tyson, take time and read what I write. I said they are examples where Lewis has struggled but it did not mean he was a bad fighter. As Big H said, so he lost some rounds, so he got hit, no big deal it is boxing and it will happen.
Thats the thing though Tyson struggled with Tillis and Lewis would use similar tactics to Tillis with the jab and movement and his much longer reach and height advantage Tucker and Bruno are tall fighters and are nothing similar to Tyson so bringing up those fights are pretty pointless i know your not comparing Tucker and Bruno to Tyson but in these match ups you have to look at fights and see what type of style they struggled against Lewis struggled with tall fighters who had good jabs and Tyson also had trouble with taller fighters with good jabs aswell.
i dont no if this as been said and i may be wrong but did lewis destroy ruddock shortley after tyson beat him?
It was a year after Ruddock had two fights after the rematch with Tyson he fought Jackson and Page then fought Lewis.Quote:
Originally Posted by big gaz
The Bean was FATTER and he was also never in shape so......yeah Ali was faster and had the reach on pretty much everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Majesty....were talking PRIME Lennox Lewis the big guy who took shots from David Tua with no problem....the guy who took his time and used everything to his advantage.....1-2 if the guy wanted to fight on the outside and the BIG uppercut if the guy wanted to come on the inside.
People here still think a Tyson from 1986-1989 is unbeatable and they are just WRONG WRONG WRONG I could name a ton of fighters that would just whip his ass even when he was on top.
That being said Mike Tyson is a great fighter he was a great champion but you do have to realize his division was weaker than the division right now!!!! No one with power who could box....no one with power and defense....no one with power and a chin....and no one who could box without being scared.
I fully expect the hate to flow freely from all you Tyson fanatics.....it's great you're fans but be reasonable.
We can debate how good this current crop of heavyweights are to the ones Tyson fought, but Prime Tyson would beat these heavyweights no problem and no doubt.
Well one question what is the best win Tyson has a win over a 38 year old Larry Holmes or a Micheal Spinks who is a light heavy wieght champion in truth and the only thing he did is get a gift decisoin against a old Holmes