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Originally Posted by bilbo
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Originally Posted by The_One77
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Originally Posted by bilbo
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Originally Posted by The_One77
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Originally Posted by kyle0930
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Originally Posted by bilbo
I doubt many educated boxing fans would argue against Ali beating a prime Tyson.
There is no evidence that Mike would break down or "collapse physically"......it would do the complete opposite.
Ok so I guess, Douglas, Holyfield (twice), Lewis, Williams and McBride don't count as evidence then? ::**
Tyson was incredibly strong and ferocious but it has to be said that whenever he stepped up in class and faced an unquestionable great, he lost, and every time his breakdown was as much mental as physical.
Yes, excuses can be made for him, but it doesn't alter the fact that mentally, whenever the going got tough, Mike had a little lay down on the canvas and quit.
If you can show me a fight where there didn't happen I will be converted.
you missed the point, i said Tyson wasn't intimidated when someone trashed talked....It made him a better fighter, as with the point i said with Biggs and Holmes.
Find me evidence to back up your claim that Tyson would be disturbed by trash talking.....that's just making up bull to make Tyson look bad.
Besides when Tyson fought Lewis, Mcbride and Williams the guy was a shadow of himself..
I think it's you who are not getting the point ;)
Yes Tyson wasn't bothered by 2nd rate fighters talking trash, as he knew he could beat them. But Tyson always was very fragile mentally. I'm sure everybody on this board has seen the footage of Mike crying before a fight in his amatuer days, Teddy Atlas having to cuddle him and tell him it was all right and not to worry.
Tyson never, ever lost that mentality.
Watch his fights, he whooped every 2nd rate fighter around but against established champions, all time greats he just didn't have a winning mindset.
An old Larry Holmes, who had took the Tyson fight on only a few weeks notice, was possibly Mikes biggest victory, aside from light heavy Michael Spinks and immediately following Tyson said he was honoured to win, that he couldn't have beaten Holmes in his prime and was generally humble and self-depreciating.
It was genuine from Mike too, when Lewis beat him, again he was incredibly humble almost to the point of being childlike. I think Tyson always did think the true greats like Holmes, Lewis etc were beyond him as evidenced by his humility after those fights.
Going into a fight against Ali, the Greatest of all time, Tyson would have had his confidence shot to pieces.
Ali was no trash talker, in the sense of somebody like Mitch Green. Ali projected an awesome self confidence that simply told you he was the best. Tyson would have believed it and not been able to mentally cope with Ali. Arnold Scwarrzengger (F*** knows how to spell it) was a master of the same art, out psyching his opponents and making them accept 2nd place. Watch Pumping Iron to see how he destroyed Lou Ferrigno before their Mr Olympic battle.
For all of Mike's excitement and potential he never did demonstrate strong mental belief. As Llye said, he never avenged a loss, he never turned around a fight he was losing, he never beat a true great in their own era. We can argue that a 'prime' Mike Tyson could have done all of those things, but it is mere speculation.
Personally I would go with the proven Ali every time.
I think Bilbo hit "almost" everything on the head....
To me it all comes down to heart....
The fighters of the past had it, the fighters of today dont....
When it comes to Mike's mentality, you should look at it from Mike's side for one day....
First, this kid didnt stand a chance in his area where he grew up, he deffinately would have most likely been dead by the age of 20 or been in prison for the rest of his life...
When Cus got him, it was a job, but he made life, somewhat, stable for Mike...he still had some grooming. Cus taught Mike more about the game than what he could learn...Thats why Mike is still considered today as a good history buff of the sweet science...
Mike studied more about boxing than anyone else in his time...Mike was groomed to win, not by chance, but by skill and knowledge that Cus put into him....He was so afraid at times of losing that he would get hit emtionally...
Does it make him less of a Man?? Why hell no!!
From the time that Mike was noticed as a potential and serious fighter, he has had cameras thrown in his face....He went from being a silent and confined person to a person that was seen in the spotlight at all times...
I think this is alot of the reasons for Mike's demise...That and being taken in by a crook like Don King....
Cus passing when he did, didnt help Mike at all...It actually hurt him more in the long run....
I respect Mike Tyson, I got to meet him in Tunica when he fought Lennox Lewis...
He is an intelligent person and was very kind to the people staying at the hotel he was at...
I know for a fact that one day, he and one of his people from his Entourage snuck away from the Hotel/Casino to goto a local Rec. Center, where Mike spent the whole day and I mean the whole day with the kids there....No press, no cameras, just Mike being human for one day out of his life....The next day he had a scheduled press conference and workout session set up...The rows of seats normally set aside for the press, were now set aside for all the kids from the Rec. Center....Mike made it a point that when he was to start interviewing, that the kids got to ask all theur questions first....
The first kid stood up and asked Mike, "Mr. Tyson sir....", Mike replied, "Just Mike for you buddy!", the kid continued with, "Mike,,,,,,Why'd you bite that man's ear off??".
You could have heard a pin drop, with a few chuckles under the breathe from bystanders....
Mike replied, "I dont know, I was just mad I guess...".
And the croud laughed....The interaction I seen between Mike and these Kids was just incredible, he made a special day for these kids and thats alot more that what I have seen from alot of fighters, who have let the money get to their heads and feel they dont have to remember about who they really are and where they came from....
This was a very touching thing to see from Mike Tyson, the one we see as an animal, criminal and cold hearted person....But, when you truly get to see the "HUMAN" side of an individual, you then get to see the true colors....I have not said one cross thing about Mike Tyson since that point....
As for Mike fighting Ali, I think it just comes down to how we argue and twist the stats around about how it would end up...
Remember most of all, in the end, they are Human and they do have real lives to live...
For now, Ali is spending the rest of his life by practicing the religion he has been faithful to all these years and spending precious moments with his family and friends...
Mike, well, I see that he is doing exactly what he wanted to do...Live in peace and get his life straight...Spend time with his kids and be a father to love and not one for people to paint for his children.....
I still, with all I have said, think that a "Prime" Mike Tyson would actually put Ali out....
Good luck,
Coach....
