Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Well i don't know if ruiz is one of the greatest..
but he has been IN with some of the greatest..
It's posts like that, that make me want to smack you in the face with a tack hammer
HUH? i was making a sarcastic reply to a sarcastic comment!
John Ruiz isn't my fave BUT!
Ruiz HAS been in with some great fighters!
Tua
Tucker
Holyfield
RJJ
Rahman
Golota
James Toney
and..the future greatest HW of all time Nicolai Valuev!
Even someone as thick as you can't even attempt to argue that!
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-hit Wonder
:coolclick: for landmine
Taking the time to compare the records statistically is pretty damn interesting if flawed.
Thanx.. hope you enjoyed and now realize Valuev's greatness...
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Isnt it amazing how the combination of the names Valuev and Marciano draws so much instantaneous and passionate interest! :)
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
HUH? i was making a sarcastic reply to a sarcastic comment!
John Ruiz isn't my fave BUT!
Ruiz HAS been in with some great fighters!
Tua
Tucker
Holyfield
RJJ
Rahman
Golota
James Toney
and..the future greatest HW of all time Nicolai Valuev!
Even someone as thick as you can't even attempt to argue that!
Oh I can argue about that ALL DAY LONG. It's just it won't matter because you'll still be stupid when I am done arguing.....maybe it's time you look into a brain transplant or something.
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
I don't think he ever argued whether Ruiz had been in with great fighters.... ::**
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Well i don't know if ruiz is one of the greatest..
but he has been IN with some of the greatest..
It's posts like that, that make me want to smack you in the face with a tack hammer
Sure he did..lyle isn't just a sh1t disturber....he's genuinly stupid!
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Could it be? ...Naw....ridiculous......or is it??
It's very hard to compare records of old time boxers to modern boxers
Things are very different today.
Old time fighters fought as a job. Except for a select few, Low pay per fight.
This meant that for a guy to be a professional he had to fight lots!
every month to put food on the table. On the average about
2- 3 times as much as a modern fighters.
Most guys had regular day jobs and fought on the side. Few professional trainers, no TV revenue etc.
Can any meaningful numbers crunching be done to create some kind of statistical comparison?
Part of the problem is that some of their opponents records are not available. Marciano's due to age and Valuev's due to the collapse and disorganisation in Russion sports at the start of his career.
Also.
The first fights in a fighters career are most often against easy fighters so that the fighter can develop skill and build confidence and as such are not a genuine "test" of his ability and really add nothing to his record as far as legitimacy goes.
Marciano has a couple and Valuev about 5 opponents who's records are unknown and appear as 0-0-0
Let's look at each fighters last say..25 fights..a time when they should be well into decent "real" fights
Marciano's last 25 opponents had a combined record of
1164 Wins 332 Losses 68 Draws
That gives a Win/fight ratio of 74.42%
Valuev's last 25 opponents have a combined record of
539 Wins 103 Losses and 19 Draws
For a Win/Fight ratio of 81.54%
Also as for which of the 2 groups would be/have been harder to beat and maintain a undefeated record against?
Marciano's last 25 guys had 332 losses or an average of 13.28 per fighter
Valuev's have 103 losses or an average of only 4.12 losses per fighter
For their last 10 fights?
Marciano 114 Losses 11.4 per fighter
Valuev 26 Losses 2.6 per fighter
Conclusion? The guys that Marciano built his record on DID WORSE
against the fighters of his day, than Valuev's opponents have done against modern day fighters
IE Valuev has fought a better caliber of fighers
81.5% win ratio vs 74.4% win ratio
Thoughts??
Please,...Do try and post intelligent and logical arguments and comments, not broad sweeping statements like "all fighters today suck" or other such nonsense
P.S. just for fun..
Here's a pic of Valuev vs John Ruiz who is 6'2 1/2" and weighs 240
Marciano was 5'10" and 190 and as you can see had thick legs.
You have a well thought out and intelligent argument. I don't have the time to go on google and argue your stats. I do like your post though. It is creative and fun to talk about. As for me personally I wouldn't even start to compare the two simply because Marciano fought everybody and beat everybody in his era. Regardless of the stats and records Marciano didn't duck anyone. And anytime Marciano had a contraversal or even a close competative fight (like with wolcott) he always gave a immediate rematch. When was the last time Valuev has done something like that? That answer is never. I would of loved to see him give John Ruiz and Larry Donald rematches. What do you think? Oh well I guess I'm kind of getting off the subject, since the whole arguement is who had the better record. Not who was the better fighter. By now I'm sure you know who I think was the better fighter and why. (I'm not going to say greater fighter) I'm sure you too agree that Marciano was the better of the two. But as far as the fighters records go, you do have a legit point. Great post!
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Well i don't know if ruiz is one of the greatest..
but he has been IN with some of the greatest..
It's posts like that, that make me want to smack you in the face with a tack hammer
HUH? i was making a sarcastic reply to a sarcastic comment!
John Ruiz isn't my fave
BUT!
Ruiz HAS been
in with some great fighters!
Tua
Tucker
Holyfield
RJJ
Rahman
Golota
James Toney
and..the
future greatest HW of all time
Nicolai Valuev!
Even someone as thick as you can't even
attempt to argue that!
Give me a break. Who has Valuev really fought besides Ruiz? And Ruiz mind you is the only HW champ ever to lose the title twice to former middleweights (jones and toney). McCline is the next biggest name on Valuev's resume next to Ruiz (who actually was robbed against Valuev; Ruiz should have got the decision IMO) and McCline pretty much beat himself in that fight by tearing his knee. So really who has Valuev beaten to be considered a future greatest of all time? Come on. Marciano fought Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott and Joe Louis just to name a few, all of which are infinitely better than any one of Valuev's opponents. This isnt entirely the big lug's fault as there really is no one great in the HW division right now anyway. The ones who stand out are Klitschko, Sam Peter, and (still) Evander Holyfield. All three I think would handle Valuev. Yes. Even the aging Real Deal could outbox Big Nic for 12 rounds. If this guy ever wants to be considered great, he should petition for a Super Heavyweight division to be made for those over 300 lbs. He would be a great Super Heavyweight Champion and reign for a long long time seeing as he would be the only one there. Valuev greater than Marciano? I didn't know they made crack that strong man, what the hell are you thinking?
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamming554
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Could it be? ...Naw....ridiculous......or is it??
It's very hard to compare records of old time boxers to modern boxers
Things are very different today.
Old time fighters fought as a job. Except for a select few, Low pay per fight.
This meant that for a guy to be a professional he had to fight lots!
every month to put food on the table. On the average about
2- 3 times as much as a modern fighters.
Most guys had regular day jobs and fought on the side. Few professional trainers, no TV revenue etc.
Can any meaningful numbers crunching be done to create some kind of statistical comparison?
Part of the problem is that some of their opponents records are not available. Marciano's due to age and Valuev's due to the collapse and disorganisation in Russion sports at the start of his career.
Also.
The first fights in a fighters career are most often against easy fighters so that the fighter can develop skill and build confidence and as such are not a genuine "test" of his ability and really add nothing to his record as far as legitimacy goes.
Marciano has a couple and Valuev about 5 opponents who's records are unknown and appear as 0-0-0
Let's look at each fighters last say..25 fights..a time when they should be well into decent "real" fights
Marciano's last 25 opponents had a combined record of
1164 Wins 332 Losses 68 Draws
That gives a Win/fight ratio of 74.42%
Valuev's last 25 opponents have a combined record of
539 Wins 103 Losses and 19 Draws
For a Win/Fight ratio of 81.54%
Also as for which of the 2 groups would be/have been harder to beat and maintain a undefeated record against?
Marciano's last 25 guys had 332 losses or an average of 13.28 per fighter
Valuev's have 103 losses or an average of only 4.12 losses per fighter
For their last 10 fights?
Marciano 114 Losses 11.4 per fighter
Valuev 26 Losses 2.6 per fighter
Conclusion? The guys that Marciano built his record on DID WORSE
against the fighters of his day, than Valuev's opponents have done against modern day fighters
IE Valuev has fought a better caliber of fighers
81.5% win ratio vs 74.4% win ratio
Thoughts??
Please,...Do try and post intelligent and logical arguments and comments, not broad sweeping statements like "all fighters today suck" or other such nonsense
P.S. just for fun..
Here's a pic of Valuev vs John Ruiz who is 6'2 1/2" and weighs 240
Marciano was 5'10" and 190 and as you can see had thick legs.
You have a well thought out and intelligent argument. I don't have the time to go on google and argue your stats. I do like your post though. It is creative and fun to talk about. As for me personally I wouldn't even start to compare the two simply because Marciano fought everybody and beat everybody in his era. Regardless of the stats and records Marciano didn't duck anyone. And anytime Marciano had a contraversal or even a close competative fight (like with wolcott) he always gave a immediate rematch. When was the last time Valuev has done something like that? That answer is never. I would of loved to see him give John Ruiz and Larry Donald rematches. What do you think? Oh well I guess I'm kind of getting off the subject, since the whole arguement is who had the better record. Not who was the better fighter. By now I'm sure you know who I think was the better fighter and why. (I'm not going to say greater fighter) I'm sure you too agree that Marciano was the better of the two. But as far as the fighters records go, you do have a legit point. Great post!
Thank you very much! I appreciate it when some one at least notices the effort that goes into the post. Even one guy can make it worthwhile
I liek the thougtful comments as well even if tehy are TOTALLY opposite to mine....I have noticed that no one has really argued the statistical analysis of the boxers records, and that really was the basis of the post.
Take away the stats and the whole argument collapses. Maybe It can't be refuted?
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Well the best 3 guys Valuev beat as opposed to the best 3 that Rocky beat...it's concluded Rocky beat the all-time better opponents
Joe Louis 69-2: the 2 losses were to Max Schmelling and Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore 148-19-9: noteable losses to Ezzard Charles (3 of them), Charley Burley, Harold Johnson and Jimmy Bivins
Ezzard Charles 79-10-1 AND 79-11-1: losses to Harold Johnson, Joe Walcott, and Rex layne
Joe Walcott 51-16-2 AND 51-17-2: losses to Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, and Rex Layne
Rex Layne 34-1-2: loss to Dave Whitlock which he avenged
Roland LaStarza 37-0-0 AND 53-3: losses to Rocky Jones and Dan Bucceroni
The opponents Rocky's opponents lost to were a lot better than....oh let's say Zuri Lawrence....who Jameel McCline was beat by.
But if Valuev wants to cheat himself out of legitimate greatness then he can just keep on fighting bums
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Whats he gotta do? dig some old timers out of the grave and beat em?
Theres only 2 guys in the div who people seem to think are any good and they wouldn't give him any contest at all, and before long... everyone will realise that theyr'e crap too. what were their names oh ya Vitali and Wlad.
Here's a pic of a FEW of their humiliating defeats.
Feel free to post all the picks of Valuev's losses, & defeats after all lyle it's only fair.. Especially all the times he lost by a massive devastating KO's or was beaten to a bloody pulp......oh ya that's right..
THERE ARE NONE! he's 46 and OH!
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Boy you're a goddamn fool if.........no you're just a goddamn fool!
Wladimir has fought good fighters, he's challenged himself......Vitali has fought good fighters, he's challenged himself.
And neither is full of himself enough to compare himself to an all-time great much less make a statement like "I want to shatter this legend's record"
Valuev is a waste of space! Why worship a fighter who doesn't fight the best out there????
Now it is no secret that I am a fan of the Klitschko's BUT I am not delusional enough to say they are all-time greats yet.....and they are more accomplished fighters than Valuev and that's just the fucking truth
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
So since we are all on heavywieghts and Wlad AND Valuev are so good; how come we cannot get a bout between them or any of the title holders? Why isn't anyone trying to unify? Is it because they dont want to mess with the BS of more than one belt or is it politics?
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
.... I'll field this one Landmine...
DON KING
He doesn't own the Klitschko's and therefore they don't get the oppertunities to fight for other titles. But when and if Vitali gets a belt then K2 promotions will hold the majority of the titles.
King has Valuev
Kushner has Briggs
K2 is Wlad and Vitali
Duva is Sam Peter
Top Rank is Maskaev
King always runs his mouth about a unification tournament but it never works out....I wonder why???
And you must admit, the Klitschko's fight the tougher opposition. Exclude Ray Austin because Wlad really wanted Shannon Briggs or Nicolay Valuev or Oleg Maskaev
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
No, it's not Valuev's fault that he's won all his pro fights.
No, it's not Valuev's fault that the quality of his opposition has been "less than stellar."
And yes, Valuev deserves credit for working hard at getting better inside the ring.
But for MY money....... I'd rather not watch a guy who outweighs everyone he fights by 100 pounds and stands almost a foot taller. Just like I think it'd be unfair to throw Arturo Gatti in against Bernard Hopkins (nobody get a stroke..... I'm not comparing Valuev to Hopkins, people).
So I'll say it again. It's fighters like Valuev that confirm my opinion that the heavyweight division shouldn't be open-ended.
