Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by Chris N.
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
hehe the pen is mightier than the sword indeed! :coolclick: returned.
I just don't understant your original statememt at all thought. You discredit Johnson saying he needed to be taught the fundamentals of boxing as if that means he's nothing special but every fighter in history had to learn their craft from somewhere. Nobody ever got good at anything without learning from others and putting in years of practise and hard work.
As for some people saying Johnson was too small he was no such such thing. People have continued to increase in size over the past generations in response to improvements in diet and health.
If Johnson would have been born in 1950 he would likey have been a couple inches taller than he was, just as if Lennox Lewis was born in 1870 he would be quite bit a smaller than his current form.
I've never understood how when comparing great fighters people try and transplant them from their past era and stick them in a ring with a modern fighter without giving them any of the modern advantages.
If Johnson lived today he'd fight at around 230-235 lbs, certainly not too small. They called him the Galvestan Giant because he was big for his day. If he was born in the 1950's or 1970's he would have been bigger.
Anyways I guess it's no point trying to convince each other, part of the fun of mythological match ups is that we have no way of knowing who is right.
Indeed it is, but in our case it's a keyboard. :D
I guess I can see how it came out like that. I didn't mean that he needed to be be taught boxing from square 1, but I guess he just needed to schooled on some of the finer points at the time. Now did Choynski have all the answers? I don't think he did, but I think that he was able to pass some of his bag of tricks to Johnson, maybe even perhaps planting some of the ideas that inspired Johnson to emphasise so much on defense. Besides I can tell you that no fighter learns all there is to know about boxing from one person, and obviously they can't learn everything they need to know in one night. All I'm saying is that he had to start somewhere, the same goes for any great boxer.
Anyways Jack Johnson was a big guy, usually the bigger against his opponents maybe with the exception of Willard. Except in his bout against Willard this wasn't the same Jack Johnson that fought Jim Jefferies; however he did give Willard a such schooling that if it was fought 35 years later in a 15 rounder, Jack would have won the fight unanimously by a large margin. ;D
Personally I like Gene Tunney more than I do Jack Johnson, but common sense tells me that the bigger man with his skill and big bag of tricks would have won hands down.
'Won hands down' maybe this phase came from Jack Johnson himself. :D
"They just knock themselves out."
:coolclick:, for a number of interesting and well made arguements
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
I think tunney would get ud against johnson nd also losing one fight against one of the best fighters of all time (greb) which he avenged on more than one occasion is nothing to be ashamed of.
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
What ?? he would have to completey change his style because i've seen his fights and style he had you actually think he would get away with that in modern boxing ?? he would get beaten to a pulp and now your saying he would be 3 inches taller ?? no lets say he was born with same parents in same era as modern greats with his old style which is dated yes very dated just say he was taught different way how can you know for sure that he would be more affective im not saying im completey right either but what im saying how can you know for sure ??
I'll say it again, if Gallieleo had been born in 1940 he wouldn't need to put away his 16 th century telescope he would never have had a 16 th century telescope! He would have spent his entire career dealing with modern telescopes!
Your comparing this to boxing ?? thats completey different and you know it.
Ice,Im pointing it out for the third time now
Johnson was between 6'1" and 6'3"
In comparison Marciano was 5'10",and Tyson was 5'11",and Holmes was 6'3"
So how would Johnson have been too small?
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by Chris N.
Poor Bilbo. It can be a pain in the a** to get your point across when there going on besides the point. By the way I bet that you could keep dishing out more analogies as long as you want to. :)
And Ice, no offense bro, but it's just the principle that he's explaining through the analogy. ;) A great man in his own time would most likely be a great man if not a greater man in our own time.
Given the means that today's fighter have, coupled with his athletisism, and good use of technical boxing knowledge he would have brought a lot too the ring. I think given the means he could do well in any era, as well as today.
Like other great fighters before him he built upon the foundations of expertise that preceded him. If he was to make full use of today's resources I believe with all my understanding that he'd excell in today's day and age, even if he was the other era's of Dempsey, Marciano, Liston, Ali, and so forth he would be able draw from all the knowledge of that day.
It's just common sense really. ;)
Thanks bro have a :coolclick:.
Sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall trying to explain things to these young'uns but at least one person understood what I was saying.
It's interesting that Nat Fleischer the founder of Ring magazine and who had a chance to see not only Jack Johnson fight live but also all the greats upto and including Ali rated Jack Johnson as the greatest of them all ;)
To be honest with you I don't even like Jack Johnson as much as you do, but I still recognise the great fighter that he'll always be. :)
By the way have you gotten to reading any of Nat Fleischer's books. I've been meaning to but I haven't until now. I've ordered his book called 'Black Dynamite' which goes over black fighters from the 1700's all the way up to 1938.
Now if there was a Jack Johnson v.s Gene Tunney (not dead of course) fight on the horizon I'd spend my life savings to watch it right at ringside. I'm a bigger fan of Gene Tunney but if I was a betting man my money would be on Jack Johnson, and I don't think either of them would disappoint me either.
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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
What ?? he would have to completey change his style because i've seen his fights and style he had you actually think he would get away with that in modern boxing ?? he would get beaten to a pulp and now your saying he would be 3 inches taller ?? no lets say he was born with same parents in same era as modern greats with his old style which is dated yes very dated just say he was taught different way how can you know for sure that he would be more affective im not saying im completey right either but what im saying how can you know for sure ??
I'll say it again, if Gallieleo had been born in 1940 he wouldn't need to put away his 16 th century telescope he would never have had a 16 th century telescope! He would have spent his entire career dealing with modern telescopes!
Your comparing this to boxing ?? thats completey different and you know it.
Ice,Im pointing it out for the third time now
Johnson was between 6'1" and 6'3"
In comparison Marciano was 5'10",and Tyson was 5'11",and Holmes was 6'3"
So how would Johnson have been too small?
If you think about it James Toney and Roy Jones for a while were inflated middleweights. James Toney standing at 5'10, and Roy Jones an inch taller. John Ruiz was 6'2 and Chris Byrd is 6'0. I don't think think Johnson would have any trouble at all fitting into the heavyweight division these days.
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
He was also taller then Quarry ,Ellis,Bonovena,and Frazier
When the guys bigger then 3 different modern era champions,and comparable height to two more,its hard to say hed be "too small" to fight in the division
Not to mention Johnson was seriously built even with the crude training techniques of the day
Now imagine him with access to plio's,protein shakes,and a modern gym
Yoiks
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
I think in his day he was about 6'2 give or take an inch, and was 220 solid. By comparison he's in better shape than that many of today's fighters. He wouldn't have to conform to today's boxing regimen, but I think a few good changes would help bring out the best of him.
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
To put it in to perspective,with very crude techniques to work with,he looked like this
http://www.koboxing.co.uk/images/user/johnson.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1...ackJohnson.jpg
Now imagine how hed look today
Yoiks again
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
If it was up to me I wouldn't change a thing. He's looks perfect the way he was. :)
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris N.
If it was up to me I wouldn't change a thing. He's looks perfect the way he was. :)
CC Chris
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
lol u reminded me of my mum with that comment
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
never really rated jack johnson really, ok i havnt see a massive amount of the guy fight...
tbh tho i think hes only really a 'legend' coz he was the first black champion... as a boxer i didn't think he was anythign special, sure boxing was in its early form then, and has developed alot... but i dunno, just don't see anyhting about johnson...
Now tunney, he was a great and would of out out thought and out boxed JJ... tunney was one of boxings first inteligent boxers.. a thinker, i don't think he gets the credit he deserves sometimes coz of his style...
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by Preme
never really rated jack johnson really, ok i havnt see a massive amount of the guy fight...
tbh tho i think hes only really a 'legend' coz he was the first black champion... as a boxer i didn't think he was anythign special, sure boxing was in its early form then, and has developed alot... but i dunno, just don't see anyhting about johnson...
Now tunney, he was a great and would of out out thought and out boxed JJ... tunney was one of boxings first inteligent boxers.. a thinker, i don't think he gets the credit he deserves sometimes coz of his style...
Actually alot of guys really studied what they were up to before Tunney,including Johnson,every one of those guys advanced the sport at their time
Johnsons footwork was light years ahead of what was happening at the time
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
never really rated jack johnson really, ok i havnt see a massive amount of the guy fight...
tbh tho i think hes only really a 'legend' coz he was the first black champion... as a boxer i didn't think he was anythign special, sure boxing was in its early form then, and has developed alot... but i dunno, just don't see anyhting about johnson...
Now tunney, he was a great and would of out out thought and out boxed JJ... tunney was one of boxings first inteligent boxers.. a thinker, i don't think he gets the credit he deserves sometimes coz of his style...
Actually alot of guys really studied what they were up to before Tunney,including Johnson,every one of those guys advanced the sport at their time
Johnsons footwork was light years ahead of what was happening at the time
tbh i could be way way off the mark coz i have seen very little of JJ, i would like to see more of him and some full fights to. Hate espn classic whe they showing old fights then skip rounds!
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
never really rated jack johnson really, ok i havnt see a massive amount of the guy fight...
tbh tho i think hes only really a 'legend' coz he was the first black champion... as a boxer i didn't think he was anythign special, sure boxing was in its early form then, and has developed alot... but i dunno, just don't see anyhting about johnson...
Now tunney, he was a great and would of out out thought and out boxed JJ... tunney was one of boxings first inteligent boxers.. a thinker, i don't think he gets the credit he deserves sometimes coz of his style...
Actually alot of guys really studied what they were up to before Tunney,including Johnson,every one of those guys advanced the sport at their time
Johnsons footwork was light years ahead of what was happening at the time
It was a must have been a big luxury to get to see any footage of your next opponent. I also heard stories by guys like Ray Arcel that had to go indisguise to see what the oppositions is up to.
I remember Kid Chocolate a famous cuban fighter saying that he'd spend hours studying guy's like Benny Leonard, and many other greats.
Nowadays it's easy enough to find footage on most fighters even on the amateur level. It sure makes this easier to know what you're up against.
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris N.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
never really rated jack johnson really, ok i havnt see a massive amount of the guy fight...
tbh tho i think hes only really a 'legend' coz he was the first black champion... as a boxer i didn't think he was anythign special, sure boxing was in its early form then, and has developed alot... but i dunno, just don't see anyhting about johnson...
Now tunney, he was a great and would of out out thought and out boxed JJ... tunney was one of boxings first inteligent boxers.. a thinker, i don't think he gets the credit he deserves sometimes coz of his style...
Actually alot of guys really studied what they were up to before Tunney,including Johnson,every one of those guys advanced the sport at their time
Johnsons footwork was light years ahead of what was happening at the time
It was a must have been a big luxury to get to see any footage of your next opponent. I also heard stories by guys like Ray Arcel that had to go indisguise to see what the oppositions is up to.
I remember Kid Chocolate a famous cuban fighter saying that he'd spend hours studying guy's like Benny Leonard, and many other greats.
Nowadays it's easy enough to find footage on most fighters even on the amateur level. It sure makes this easier to know what you're up against.
Oh hells yes,if we even get in to negotiations for a fight,Ive got the fighter researched to the point,I can tell you what they had for breakfast ,within 20 minutes;D
But I think you were going for those old timers being able to study their opposition,more what I was saying,is fighters like Johnson,and Gentelman Jim COrbett treated fighting like it was science,rather then just crude fisticuffs
