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The same goes for me... on offending you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
But if one race was making my race feel inferior and telling us, me, what to do, how to do it, when to do it.... I'd be hard pressed to obey them if they wanted me to fight their war.
I understand that but Ali wasn't about making positive changes he was about everything Louis Farrakhan stands for now and I don't consider Farrakhan worthy of life....I feel differently about Ali as the times were different but he and the whole Nation of Islam were so frustrated with things in the US that they took to extremist views which I don't agree with but I can understand.
Hey if you're waiting for me to fall on my knees and praise Ali for his stand against America you're wasting your time. Ali did what he thought was right for him and people like him, but that doesn't mean it's right in my view and it doesn't mean it was right OR wrong all together....so we're just going to have to disagree and move on
That's cool, I'm ok with that. ccQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Why is he suddenly a hero for dodging a draft? Look at the heros of our history. They saw something wrong in the world, an injustice, and they fought selflessly against it for the good of others. Thats FAR from what Ali did. He took the intelligence test and failed (more than likely on purpose, as Ali was a far smarter man than most of us), and that got him out of the war. At that point, when he didn't think he would have to fight in the war, he didn't give a fuck. The fact that people were getting drafted and being forced to fight against their religious beliefs didn't mean shit to him, because he didn't have to fight. Suddenly they change the classification and he gets drafted. Now that its HIS ass on the line, suddenly he cares. Now he wants to stand up for this grave injustice.
I always have to laugh at how people romanticize Ali's actions. "Oh he refused to kill another human being so he selflessly sacraficed the prime of his career." Bullshit. He just didn't want to run through a jungle getting shot at by Viet Cong. He was trying to save his own ass. People romanticize it as "Ali's stand against the injustice of the cruel American Government", but in reality he was just another guy dodging the war, the only difference was he had a lot more status and popularity than the average draft dodger.
Let me use this as an example...
A couple weeks ago there was a thread here made about a Muslim boxer who REFUSED to provide a drug test on religious grounds. Was this a big stand against an unruly Athletic Commishion? None of you seemed to think so. The majority of you thought he was just covering up for the fact that he was on roids (or something else), and added that he shouldn't be in boxing if he is unwilling to follow the same rules as everyone else. At the same token, if you live in a country and enjoy the many benefits of living there (as Ali did), shouldn't you also be expected to follow all the same rules and regulations as everyone else? If Ali was so opposed to the war, he should have left the country. A true hero would have left and said "I'm leaving because this is an injustice, people are being forced to fight an injust war, ect ect". Instead, Ali only stood up when he had to (when his ass was on the line). Instead of taking a stand, he tried to manipulate his way out of it.
So why aren't you people hailing this Muslim boxer who refused to provide a urine sample as a hero??
No the average draft dodger moved to another country or found other "acceptable" ways to be inelgible for the draft (atleast he confronted the issue instead of running to canada or w/e else people did to dodge the draft like cowards). Ali is one of the few who just straight up said no (and don't try calling him a coward because of it because he had the courage to fight in the ring for many years.). I'm not saying he's a hero because i know the man was only motivated to better himself. People often confuse the post boxing ali as the same guy that said no to the draft. After boxing, he was a great selfless human being but during he was arrogant, selfish, and only looking out for his best interest. Ali was only 25 in '67 give the man a break.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
I just wanna know how great you have to be for people to bring up things to try and bring your status as a boxing legend down when its been over 20 years since you retired (floyd, this is something you'll have to deal with too). ;D
Ummm its kinda hard to run and hide in Canada like the average, faceless Joe when you are HW champ of the world and a national celebrity. By standing up and going to jail, he would be giving away a few years of his career. By fleeing to Canada, he would have been pretty much throwing his career and image away and he wouldn't have been able to "fall through the cracks" like the average nameless, faceless draft dodger. Ali knew this, because like I said he was smarter than most of us here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
I'm not saying he is a coward. I have no problem with what he did. If you don't agree with a law and you break it, you pay the consequences which is what he did. I just have an issue with people romanticizing it and calling him a hero because of it, because what he did was nothing special, nor was it anything to warrant a "hero" label.
He might a muslim boxer, but he's just a boxer. Sports see no religion and it is in the rules of the sport he was competing in that he failed to follow. There's no political stance on that. A urine test is way different than the draft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Now back to ali:
Why didn't he go to a different country like everybody else then? Why didn't he fight out of a different country? He may not have been a savior, but he wasn't afraid to voice his opinion. I got a question for you, what about all these people against the war in iraq? They can voice their opinion all they want to because there is no draft. It's easy to say something when you don't have to pay for it. If the draft was re-instated, all these anti-war people (famous and not) would move to canada or go to college (solely to avoid the draft) because they are cowards. Would anyone today who's against one war or another have to balls to say "I'm not going"? I doubt it. If they did tho, they would go to jail all the same.
I agree if you break the law should face the consequences as well. The thing is people have a hard time separating what ali did in the ring during his carrer from what he did after boxing as a peaceful person, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Not many famos people of any era would be willing to give up all there money and the things that made them famous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Ali was offered a non combat roll in the army and turned it down on princeable that your avrage black man in America would not have this offer.
In an age when almost all sports stars are rulled by money Ali was and is a hero in the ring and an even bigger hero out of it.
Gyroki, I'm giving you a cc back
Punisher so Ali was 25, in World War 2 and Vietnam the majority of the soldiers were younger than that....could you imagine being 18 and landing at Omaha Beach? I know I couldn't and I've been to Normandy, it really blows your mind seeing those graves knowing that those people were only kids....I suppose the same thing goes for the Vietnam Memorial in DC.
The average WHITE MAN wasn't offered noncombat roles either porkypara.
OOOOhhh OOOHHH (rasies hand)....I got a question, how in the Fuck do any of yall know what Ali's motives were?? YOU DON'T AND YOU ARE JUST ASS...UMING... the only person that knows Ali's motives were Ali, and him alone.
Another thing, i don't see Ali as a racist. Why, do any of yall know of the racial tension back then?? black people getting beat by police, treated unfairly, a white person could murder a black person then and get a pat on his back!!! Shit i wouldn't want to live with them either!!! (i'm not racist by the way, it just makes damn sense to me).
So you fight racism with MORE racism, wise move....you learn this from Farrakahn or something?
Yes there was racism and yes it was horrible but calling members of your own race GORRILLAS and UNCLE TOMS doesn't give you much room to say you're a HERO to your community when ignorant whites did virtually the same thing.
Whites got a pat on the back then and Ali gets one now....what he did was wrong he he knows it, not in regards to the draft dodging but the way he treated members of his own race and whites along with that....I am no white devil.
Ali was a great fighter but I don't see him as a great person, but that's just my opinion so you can take it or leave it my mind will not be changed either way