Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
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Originally Posted by Julius Rain
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Originally Posted by miles
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Originally Posted by Julius Rain
guys mab can actually still beat everybody else in the division, guzman soto valero etc. he really does not need to retire, his not washed up, past it yea maybe but washed up is not mab.
Irrelevant now. Barrera is retired.
Maybe Pac can try fighting them. Its his turn to lead the way!
yea now that both eric and mab is out the way pac can move on and fight these other guys that haven't yet made it as big but still jmm remains.
pac jmm 2 is the one I would really love to see, for now
my gut say pac but my heart sa jmm but I'll have to see how jmm looks in his next fight to really choose.
:o :o :o So you can be impartial??>!? I take back what I said earlier bro and I agree,it'll be a close fight. JMM's next fight v Juarez will tell us alot.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
MORALES in my opinion. In thier 3 fights I thought Morales won the first 2 and lost the last one by a point. He beat Pac in what turned out to be his last win, but when it came to the rematch and especially the last fight with Pac, Morales gave it his all and wasn't in there just to survive like MAB.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
For overall career, I count them even in the heads up matchups, no matter what the actual outcomes.
Looking to their other fighters, MAB's biggest non-Morales win is Hamed. Morales biggest non-MAB win in Pacman. Pretty damn close, if you ask me. Some would argue that Naz was a step past it when MAB beat him, and most would agree that the Pacman Morales beat was a year or two before his peak. Either way, both guys have one crowning achievement on their resume, aside from their own trilogy.
Other than wins over Hamed and Morales, MAB's biggest wins are ???????? - some good fighters - Kevin Kelly, an older Tapia, Maurin, Ayala, Peden.
Besides wins over Barrera and Pac, Morales beat Carlos Hernandez, Kelly, Junior Jones (who beat MAB twice), Jesus Chavez, In-Jin Chi, and Ayala (like MAB).
I gotta give the edge to Morales, on secondary-level wins.
Unfortunately, Morales lost 4 of his last 5. Let's look at that. Two he lost to Pac, who Barrera could never beat, one was a VERY close fight to Barrera, and the other two were in at 135, where we have never seen Barrera fight.
I love MAB, and my first instinct was that he had the better overall career, but as I broke it down, I have to give the overall career advantage to Morales. In the twighlight of their careers, MAB was the superior fighter. There are any number of reasons why that is. Morales weight issues couldn't have helped him much in that regard, but If I were making an all-time P4P, I would have to put Morales a notch or two ahead.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
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Originally Posted by SeanE
For overall career, I count them even in the heads up matchups, no matter what the actual outcomes.
Looking to their other fighters, MAB's biggest non-Morales win is Hamed. Morales biggest non-MAB win in Pacman. Pretty damn close, if you ask me. Some would argue that Naz was a step past it when MAB beat him, and most would agree that the Pacman Morales beat was a year or two before his peak. Either way, both guys have one crowning achievement on their resume, aside from their own trilogy.
Other than wins over Hamed and Morales, MAB's biggest wins are ???????? - some good fighters - Kevin Kelly, an older Tapia, Maurin, Ayala, Peden.
Besides wins over Barrera and Pac, Morales beat Carlos Hernandez, Kelly, Junior Jones (who beat MAB twice), Jesus Chavez, In-Jin Chi, and Ayala (like MAB).
I gotta give the edge to Morales, on secondary-level wins.
Unfortunately, Morales lost 4 of his last 5. Let's look at that. Two he lost to Pac, who Barrera could never beat, one was a VERY close fight to Barrera, and the other two were in at 135, where we have never seen Barrera fight.
I love MAB, and my first instinct was that he had the better overall career, but as I broke it down, I have to give the overall career advantage to Morales. In the twighlight of their careers, MAB was the superior fighter. There are any number of reasons why that is. Morales weight issues couldn't have helped him much in that regard, but If I were making an all-time P4P, I would have to put Morales a notch or two ahead.
Sean, good breakdown. But...on MAB's resume why don't you mention Juarez. Juarez was one of the biggest punchers and up coming stars when Barrera fought him. Marco was no youngster when he warred out a win in the first fight and schooled him in the second. Many people don't give him enough credit for those fights. Not to mention Barrera had the cajones to fight Marquez towards the end of his career...a fight that was extremely close. Morales, as well as many others, ducked Marquez for years. As far as the MAB vs. Morales trilogy...i had it 2 wins to 1 for Marco. Both of them are great fighters...but Marco's intelligence and longevity make him the better of the two.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
And for the record....Barrera was preparing to fight Chavez at 135 before Chavez got hurt and had to pull out.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
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Originally Posted by zhubin
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Originally Posted by SeanE
For overall career, I count them even in the heads up matchups, no matter what the actual outcomes.
Looking to their other fighters, MAB's biggest non-Morales win is Hamed. Morales biggest non-MAB win in Pacman. Pretty damn close, if you ask me. Some would argue that Naz was a step past it when MAB beat him, and most would agree that the Pacman Morales beat was a year or two before his peak. Either way, both guys have one crowning achievement on their resume, aside from their own trilogy.
Other than wins over Hamed and Morales, MAB's biggest wins are ???????? - some good fighters - Kevin Kelly, an older Tapia, Maurin, Ayala, Peden.
Besides wins over Barrera and Pac, Morales beat Carlos Hernandez, Kelly, Junior Jones (who beat MAB twice), Jesus Chavez, In-Jin Chi, and Ayala (like MAB).
I gotta give the edge to Morales, on secondary-level wins.
Unfortunately, Morales lost 4 of his last 5. Let's look at that. Two he lost to Pac, who Barrera could never beat, one was a VERY close fight to Barrera, and the other two were in at 135, where we have never seen Barrera fight.
I love MAB, and my first instinct was that he had the better overall career, but as I broke it down, I have to give the overall career advantage to Morales. In the twighlight of their careers, MAB was the superior fighter. There are any number of reasons why that is. Morales weight issues couldn't have helped him much in that regard, but If I were making an all-time P4P, I would have to put Morales a notch or two ahead.
Sean, good breakdown. But...on MAB's resume why don't you mention Juarez. Juarez was one of the biggest punchers and up coming stars when Barrera fought him. Marco was no youngster when he warred out a win in the first fight and schooled him in the second. Many people don't give him enough credit for those fights. Not to mention Barrera had the cajones to fight Marquez towards the end of his career...a fight that was extremely close. Morales, as well as many others, ducked Marquez for years. As far as the MAB vs. Morales trilogy...i had it 2 wins to 1 for Marco. Both of them are great fighters...but Marco's intelligence and longevity make him the better of the two.
I guess if you give him credit for Juarez it matters some, but I don't really rate Juarez all that highly. That he needed to war out a win with Juarez in the first fight shows me great heart, but it doesn't show me much else. He should have schooled him in the first fight. As for fighting JMM late in his career, lets not forget that JMM is pretty damn late in his career, too, and although it was a close fight, I felt JMM won pretty clearly (not easily, but clearly).
I will forever love MAB for his professionalism, his ability to reinvent himself, and for kicking the ass of Naseem Hamed. I have rooted for MAB consistantly, even against Morales. I wish I could give the edge, but I have to give Morales credit for his greater number of wins against B+ and A- fighters, and for beating Pac, even just the once, which to me is an even greater win than Barrera beating Naz.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
CC to all for giving your nice opinions.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
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Originally Posted by SeanE
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Originally Posted by zhubin
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Originally Posted by SeanE
For overall career, I count them even in the heads up matchups, no matter what the actual outcomes.
Looking to their other fighters, MAB's biggest non-Morales win is Hamed. Morales biggest non-MAB win in Pacman. Pretty damn close, if you ask me. Some would argue that Naz was a step past it when MAB beat him, and most would agree that the Pacman Morales beat was a year or two before his peak. Either way, both guys have one crowning achievement on their resume, aside from their own trilogy.
Other than wins over Hamed and Morales, MAB's biggest wins are ???????? - some good fighters - Kevin Kelly, an older Tapia, Maurin, Ayala, Peden.
Besides wins over Barrera and Pac, Morales beat Carlos Hernandez, Kelly, Junior Jones (who beat MAB twice), Jesus Chavez, In-Jin Chi, and Ayala (like MAB).
I gotta give the edge to Morales, on secondary-level wins.
Unfortunately, Morales lost 4 of his last 5. Let's look at that. Two he lost to Pac, who Barrera could never beat, one was a VERY close fight to Barrera, and the other two were in at 135, where we have never seen Barrera fight.
I love MAB, and my first instinct was that he had the better overall career, but as I broke it down, I have to give the overall career advantage to Morales. In the twighlight of their careers, MAB was the superior fighter. There are any number of reasons why that is. Morales weight issues couldn't have helped him much in that regard, but If I were making an all-time P4P, I would have to put Morales a notch or two ahead.
Sean, good breakdown. But...on MAB's resume why don't you mention Juarez. Juarez was one of the biggest punchers and up coming stars when Barrera fought him. Marco was no youngster when he warred out a win in the first fight and schooled him in the second. Many people don't give him enough credit for those fights. Not to mention Barrera had the cajones to fight Marquez towards the end of his career...a fight that was extremely close. Morales, as well as many others, ducked Marquez for years. As far as the MAB vs. Morales trilogy...i had it 2 wins to 1 for Marco. Both of them are great fighters...but Marco's intelligence and longevity make him the better of the two.
I guess if you give him credit for Juarez it matters some, but I don't really rate Juarez all that highly. That he needed to war out a win with Juarez in the first fight shows me great heart, but it doesn't show me much else. He should have schooled him in the first fight. As for fighting JMM late in his career, lets not forget that JMM is pretty damn late in his career, too, and although it was a close fight, I felt JMM won pretty clearly (not easily, but clearly).
I will forever love MAB for his professionalism, his ability to reinvent himself, and for kicking the a** of Naseem Hamed. I have rooted for MAB consistantly, even against Morales. I wish I could give the edge, but I have to give Morales credit for his greater number of wins against B+ and A- fighters, and for beating Pac, even just the once, which to me is an even greater win than Barrera beating Naz.
Well...a difference in opinion i guess. Say what you want about Juarez now...but he was a younger, stronger fighter than MAB when they fought. And don't forget, before the first Juarez fight Barrera was preparing to go up to 135 to fight Chavez. When that fight fell through...he all of a sudden had to adjust to fight another fighter...hence his sub par showing in the first fight (not to mention Juarez is a strong and skilled puncher). In the second fight...Marco showed his true self and out classed his younger foe. As for JMM...sure...he ain't a young buck....but he is still one of the pound 4 pound best fighters in the game...a fighter almost that almost all the big names (with the exception of Pac and Marco) have ducked. I personally thought that Barrera should have one that fight...but at the very least it was damn close.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
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Originally Posted by zhubin
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Originally Posted by SeanE
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Originally Posted by zhubin
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanE
For overall career, I count them even in the heads up matchups, no matter what the actual outcomes.
Looking to their other fighters, MAB's biggest non-Morales win is Hamed. Morales biggest non-MAB win in Pacman. Pretty damn close, if you ask me. Some would argue that Naz was a step past it when MAB beat him, and most would agree that the Pacman Morales beat was a year or two before his peak. Either way, both guys have one crowning achievement on their resume, aside from their own trilogy.
Other than wins over Hamed and Morales, MAB's biggest wins are ???????? - some good fighters - Kevin Kelly, an older Tapia, Maurin, Ayala, Peden.
Besides wins over Barrera and Pac, Morales beat Carlos Hernandez, Kelly, Junior Jones (who beat MAB twice), Jesus Chavez, In-Jin Chi, and Ayala (like MAB).
I gotta give the edge to Morales, on secondary-level wins.
Unfortunately, Morales lost 4 of his last 5. Let's look at that. Two he lost to Pac, who Barrera could never beat, one was a VERY close fight to Barrera, and the other two were in at 135, where we have never seen Barrera fight.
I love MAB, and my first instinct was that he had the better overall career, but as I broke it down, I have to give the overall career advantage to Morales. In the twighlight of their careers, MAB was the superior fighter. There are any number of reasons why that is. Morales weight issues couldn't have helped him much in that regard, but If I were making an all-time P4P, I would have to put Morales a notch or two ahead.
Sean, good breakdown. But...on MAB's resume why don't you mention Juarez. Juarez was one of the biggest punchers and up coming stars when Barrera fought him. Marco was no youngster when he warred out a win in the first fight and schooled him in the second. Many people don't give him enough credit for those fights. Not to mention Barrera had the cajones to fight Marquez towards the end of his career...a fight that was extremely close. Morales, as well as many others, ducked Marquez for years. As far as the MAB vs. Morales trilogy...i had it 2 wins to 1 for Marco. Both of them are great fighters...but Marco's intelligence and longevity make him the better of the two.
I guess if you give him credit for Juarez it matters some, but I don't really rate Juarez all that highly. That he needed to war out a win with Juarez in the first fight shows me great heart, but it doesn't show me much else. He should have schooled him in the first fight. As for fighting JMM late in his career, lets not forget that JMM is pretty damn late in his career, too, and although it was a close fight, I felt JMM won pretty clearly (not easily, but clearly).
I will forever love MAB for his professionalism, his ability to reinvent himself, and for kicking the a** of Naseem Hamed. I have rooted for MAB consistantly, even against Morales. I wish I could give the edge, but I have to give Morales credit for his greater number of wins against B+ and A- fighters, and for beating Pac, even just the once, which to me is an even greater win than Barrera beating Naz.
Well...a difference in opinion i guess. Say what you want about Juarez now...but he was a younger, stronger fighter than MAB when they fought. And don't forget, before the first Juarez fight Barrera was preparing to go up to 135 to fight Chavez. When that fight fell through...he all of a sudden had to adjust to fight another fighter...hence his sub par showing in the first fight (not to mention Juarez is a strong and skilled puncher). In the second fight...Marco showed his true self and out classed his younger foe. As for JMM...sure...he ain't a young buck....but he is still one of the pound 4 pound best fighters in the game...a fighter almost that almost all the big names (with the exception of Pac and Marco) have ducked. I personally thought that Barrera should have one that fight...but at the very least it was damn close.
Juarez was younger, stronger, less skilled, and one dimensional. You do give a pretty good reason why he struggled in the first fight, still, we have no basis to know how Barrera would have faired at 135. I suspect he would have done so well. We can agree to disagree on the JMM fight, but I give him props for taking the fight.
You make some good pro-MAB points, but you don't talk about Morales beating Hernandez and Junior Jones, who are far, far better fighters than say, Rocky Juarez, Peden, or Tapia in 2002. Wayne McCullough was still a damn good fighter in 1999, when Morales beat him.
Too bad Morales never fought Naz...that would have been fun. I think we can agree on that.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
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Originally Posted by SeanE
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Originally Posted by zhubin
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Originally Posted by SeanE
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanE
For overall career, I count them even in the heads up matchups, no matter what the actual outcomes.
Looking to their other fighters, MAB's biggest non-Morales win is Hamed. Morales biggest non-MAB win in Pacman. Pretty damn close, if you ask me. Some would argue that Naz was a step past it when MAB beat him, and most would agree that the Pacman Morales beat was a year or two before his peak. Either way, both guys have one crowning achievement on their resume, aside from their own trilogy.
Other than wins over Hamed and Morales, MAB's biggest wins are ???????? - some good fighters - Kevin Kelly, an older Tapia, Maurin, Ayala, Peden.
Besides wins over Barrera and Pac, Morales beat Carlos Hernandez, Kelly, Junior Jones (who beat MAB twice), Jesus Chavez, In-Jin Chi, and Ayala (like MAB).
I gotta give the edge to Morales, on secondary-level wins.
Unfortunately, Morales lost 4 of his last 5. Let's look at that. Two he lost to Pac, who Barrera could never beat, one was a VERY close fight to Barrera, and the other two were in at 135, where we have never seen Barrera fight.
I love MAB, and my first instinct was that he had the better overall career, but as I broke it down, I have to give the overall career advantage to Morales. In the twighlight of their careers, MAB was the superior fighter. There are any number of reasons why that is. Morales weight issues couldn't have helped him much in that regard, but If I were making an all-time P4P, I would have to put Morales a notch or two ahead.
Sean, good breakdown. But...on MAB's resume why don't you mention Juarez. Juarez was one of the biggest punchers and up coming stars when Barrera fought him. Marco was no youngster when he warred out a win in the first fight and schooled him in the second. Many people don't give him enough credit for those fights. Not to mention Barrera had the cajones to fight Marquez towards the end of his career...a fight that was extremely close. Morales, as well as many others, ducked Marquez for years. As far as the MAB vs. Morales trilogy...i had it 2 wins to 1 for Marco. Both of them are great fighters...but Marco's intelligence and longevity make him the better of the two.
I guess if you give him credit for Juarez it matters some, but I don't really rate Juarez all that highly. That he needed to war out a win with Juarez in the first fight shows me great heart, but it doesn't show me much else. He should have schooled him in the first fight. As for fighting JMM late in his career, lets not forget that JMM is pretty damn late in his career, too, and although it was a close fight, I felt JMM won pretty clearly (not easily, but clearly).
I will forever love MAB for his professionalism, his ability to reinvent himself, and for kicking the a** of Naseem Hamed. I have rooted for MAB consistantly, even against Morales. I wish I could give the edge, but I have to give Morales credit for his greater number of wins against B+ and A- fighters, and for beating Pac, even just the once, which to me is an even greater win than Barrera beating Naz.
Well...a difference in opinion i guess. Say what you want about Juarez now...but he was a younger, stronger fighter than MAB when they fought. And don't forget, before the first Juarez fight Barrera was preparing to go up to 135 to fight Chavez. When that fight fell through...he all of a sudden had to adjust to fight another fighter...hence his sub par showing in the first fight (not to mention Juarez is a strong and skilled puncher). In the second fight...Marco showed his true self and out classed his younger foe. As for JMM...sure...he ain't a young buck....but he is still one of the pound 4 pound best fighters in the game...a fighter almost that almost all the big names (with the exception of Pac and Marco) have ducked. I personally thought that Barrera should have one that fight...but at the very least it was damn close.
Juarez was younger, stronger, less skilled, and one dimensional. You do give a pretty good reason why he struggled in the first fight, still, we have no basis to know how Barrera would have faired at 135. I suspect he would have done so well. We can agree to disagree on the JMM fight, but I give him props for taking the fight.
You make some good pro-MAB points, but you don't talk about Morales beating Hernandez and Junior Jones, who are far, far better fighters than say, Rocky Juarez, Peden, or Tapia in 2002. Wayne McCullough was still a damn good fighter in 1999, when Morales beat him.
Too bad Morales never fought Naz...that would have been fun. I think we can agree on that.
I by no means am trying to disparage Eric or his resume. He is one of my all time favorite fighters and his record speaks for itself. I just think if you look at his and Barrera's careers...from beginning to end...Marco comes out ahead. Plus, you have to take into account their trilogy. When they fought each other...they where both at the top or near the top of their game. Marco won 2 out of three times against Morales...a Morales who at that time was among the very best fighters in the sport. That also has to be taken into consideration when evaluating their respective careers. Marco, despite the recent Pac fight, finished his career on a stronger note. He hasn't been completely outclassed by anyone in recent years (except for Pac). Morales, because of the nature of his fighting style, has struggled mightily in recent years (and he is younger than MAB). The Morales of old would have cleaned the floor with a guy like Diaz. They are both legends in my eye. I just rate Barrera slightly ahead.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
regarding JJ - let's be honest he was long shot when Morales got to him.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
CC SeanE,excellent points all around. Morales fought and beat:
Chi,Jesus Chavez,Carlos Hernandez,Daniel Zaragoza,Wayne McCollough,MAB,Guty Espades,Paulie Ayala(before MAB), and the Pacman. That is sensational. MAB's resume does not compare: Naz,EM,Ayala,Juarez(who is a very poor fighter and should not have got his shot in the first place),Tapia,Peden? I know who's looks better.
And as for the head to head,all three fights were close and that would be basing them on their fights. JT beat B Hop twice in close fights,doesn't mean he had the greater legacy.Morales had by far the better resume,no question.
And the best win on either resume is the win over Manny,in my opinion. Sure,MAB was around longer,reinvented himself and whilst he is to be congratulated for that is a great achievement,he still did not beat as many good fighters as Morales. Morales also went a weight class higher and proved himself(shot and all) there against Diaz in a fight he should have got the W.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
Barrera's best wins Morales best wins
Rocky Juarez Daniel Zaragoza
Erik Morales Junior Jones
Kevin Kelley Wayne McCullough
Paulie Ayala Marco Antonio Barrera
Johnny Tapia Kevin Kelley
Naseem Hamed Guty Espadas Jr
Jesus Salud In-Jin Chi
Kennedy McKinney Paulie Ayala
Jesus Chavez
Held World Titles At. Carlos Hernandez
Manny Pacquiao
Super Bantamweight
Featherweight Held World Titles At.
Super Featherweight
Super Bantamweight
Featherweight
Superfeatherweight
Im Barrera fan but i have to admit Morales had the better resume.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
Damn! SeanE & Zhubin you guys are grindin this shat out properly!
My opinion is is swaying with each post ;D
CC to the both of ya
Id have to say that Morales was probably the better fighter earlier in their careers but as we got into the mid and later part of this decade MAB remiained the more consumate of the two and looked as if he would finish with the better legacy. Morales started to look horrible.
Howver when it comes to the crunch, its still very debatable.
The Pac win does a hell of a lot for Morales but lets not forget the whole Reyes/ Winning gloves issue (remember that?)
Also, I dont think Morales' ventures up at Lightweight do much as lets bee honest apart from Juan Diaz, Lightweight is kinda 2nd rate in comparrison.
Finally i think that had Morlales fought Juan Marquez, he would of lost miserabley. That counts as something.
Re: MAB vs Morales: who deserves more praise?
Oh and speaking of Manny Marquez. I think it is quite possible that by the time his carrer is done, he'll have an equally if not more succesfull career as these two legends.
A convincing win over a prime Pacquiao would be a good start (and i for one, think that wont be a problem) ;)
