Lee vs. Vera

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

Spicoli and Gorilla are so off on this. Bad stoppage. If this ref was working Pavlik/Taylor 1, he would it would have been TKO 2 for Taylor. Lee was hurt, but he was still fighting back. He had staggered Vera in the previous round. Maybe Vera KO's him later that round, but Vera should have been given the opportunity to end it properly and Lee should have been given the opportunity to come back. I'm no huge Andy Lee fan, but if you think this was a good stoppage, you are just too wrapped up in the moment supporting an underdog. I love an upset as much as anybody, but I want to see it called correct. Had Vera won legit, I would be giving him all props, but the stoppage was crap, and if Vera gets back in the ring with Lee, he's going to get his ass handed to him.

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Sorry Rozzy but this is the best thing that can happen to Lee right now.....The best of fighters have lost early on and looked to rebound well.Stoppage can be seen by some as Iffy and It will be noted by fans but Hypotheticals are a dime a dozen with comparisons. Lee was getting opened up on by a grade b-c guy in Vera with shots cleanly ,and Lee's body language was tired & Tattered.He was not ultimatley fazing Vera with shots and had no secondary game plan after cut and vera started backing him up.

I am not writing him off and Lee has the physical gifts to build on.I Liked his occasional sneaky inside shots and range but He was out worked and out punched down the stretch.We'll see Lee again and hopefully he can rebuild but he has some work to do.

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This may be a good thing for Lee in the long run, but I disagree the Lee wasn't phasing Vera. It was a very close fight, in fact, Lee was up on the cards. It's not like Vera was dominating every round. He was just dominating THAT round. I could see the stoppage if Vera had been dominating on the cards and Lee didn't have a chance to come back and win. This isn't the amatuers. That might have been a good stoppage in a Golden Gloves match, but for pro main event, it was garbage. Lee was still throwing back, for gods sake!!

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Agree that Vera was not fully dominating Lee but it sure looked like he gave lee a shalacking in the 4th as well

If you could see a stoppage depending on the wideness of the score......I have to ask Is it the refs Job to keep track of the Scores or should he be more focused on a fighter absorbing graduale damage??Lee was foggy and getting wrecked,Vera was teeing off with much more impact then Lee at that point in the fight.Dont get me wrong....I think they seek a rematch and i believe Lee can re-tool and exploit Veras somewhat wreckless style for an educational win.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Sorry Rozzy but this is the best thing that can happen to Lee right now.....The best of fighters have lost early on and looked to rebound well.Stoppage can be seen by some as Iffy and It will be noted by fans but Hypotheticals are a dime a dozen with comparisons. Lee was getting opened up on by a grade b-c guy in Vera with shots cleanly ,and Lee's body language was tired & Tattered.He was not ultimatley fazing Vera with shots and had no secondary game plan after cut and vera started backing him up.

I am not writing him off and Lee has the physical gifts to build on.I Liked his occasional sneaky inside shots and range but He was out worked and out punched down the stretch.We'll see Lee again and hopefully he can rebuild but he has some work to do.

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This may be a good thing for Lee in the long run, but I disagree the Lee wasn't phasing Vera. It was a very close fight, in fact, Lee was up on the cards. It's not like Vera was dominating every round. He was just dominating THAT round. I could see the stoppage if Vera had been dominating on the cards and Lee didn't have a chance to come back and win. This isn't the amatuers. That might have been a good stoppage in a Golden Gloves match, but for pro main event, it was garbage. Lee was still throwing back, for gods sake!!

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Agree that Vera was not fully dominating Lee but it sure looked like he gave lee a shalacking in the 4th as well

If you could see a stoppage depending on the wideness of the score......I have to ask Is it the refs Job to keep track of the Scores or should he be more focused on a fighter absorbing graduale damage??Lee was foggy and getting wrecked,Vera was teeing off with much more impact then Lee at that point in the fight.Dont get me wrong....I think they seek a rematch and i believe Lee can re-tool and exploit Veras somewhat wreckless style for an educational win.

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Exactly. A ref doesn't need to know the scores, it's completely irrelevant as far as him doing his job. Instead he needs to monitor how much punishment each fighter has taken over the fight, their willingness and ability to fight on, their condition. I think he made a gutsy call in ending the fight there, no reason for a young kid to take obscene punishment on the off chance he could manage to survive past the journeyman pummeling him. The tide was clearly turning completely in Vera's favour as well, even in the rounds Lee won, he reacted much worse to shots he was being hit with than Vera did.

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Originally Posted by The Fightfan

Anyone with the upset tonight?
Nope not me Lee in 3

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Well to tell ya the truth I've never seen Andy Lee fight.I just went on E-man saying how Andy Lee is the best middleweight I've trained in a long time even when Taylor was with him.Well that's the last time I take someone's advice on a fighter.

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Originally Posted by Hulk

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Hulk

Give it a rest man. Lee lost, the underdog won. Everyone is happy but you and a few other Lee fans. He fought a stupid fight and lost.

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I wouldn't consider myself a big Lee fan, and I'm happy for Vera. I was cheering for Vera from the 12th row when he beat Max Alexander's ass in Boston. Vera is a better fighter than most people give him credit for being. His only loss came to a guy who has only lost to Allen Greene and Sakio Bika, and Coddrington gave Bika a heck of a fight. I'm having a legit debate over whether or not it was good stoppage, and there are other people who agree with me.

So if you want to make a point, make a point other than calling me a fan-boy and not contributing anything to the discussion.

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It was a legit stoppage, Lee had been wobbled several times in that round and was batterd and did not have his legs under him, you fan boy.

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Whatever, douchebag.

Well I was going to start my own thread about all this but this looks like a fine place to post.


So Andy Lee is supposed to be the next big thing in the middleweight division...well I still believe it and I'm sticking by my boy.


Vera was a solid super middleweight and usually when bringing a fighter a long you find fights vs smaller fighters and build up their confidence. Vera is still a limited fighter but he's tough and stubborn and if you mess up in your strategy this is what happens.

Andy Lee tatooed Vera with power punches....they knocked him down once but never really buster his face up or cut him or bothered him other than a few times.

This fight is where EXPERIENCE would have paid off rather than sheer determination and guts....this is why Wladimir Klitschko is a Champion and (sorry to offend anyone) this is how we really know Andy Lee is Irish.

Andy gave us an exciting fight, trading power punches with someone obviously less talented than himself, both fighters paying little to no attention to defense or skill.....that is how journeymen win, that is how upsets happen and this is a VALUEABLE LEARNING EXPERIENCE. Sure Andy Lee is no longer undefeated but it's one less thing he has to worry about. What Andy has to do now is to regroup, fight on, box a little more, develop his defense and in-fighting(perhaps an uppercut would suit him) and his confidence will come back and he's going to obviously aim for a rematch if he's a smart fella (so it'll answer any questions as he builds his legacy) ....well hell he's Irish I'm sure he'll curse Vera until he has the opportunity to fight him again.

Andy Lee is going to be ok, he's got to pick his spots and learn what Wlad and Lennox and Tommy Hearns have had to learn. Andy answered questions about his chin and his heart and his guts but he has to be a SMART fighter and he can do it, I have no doubts about it...he's going to regroup and this loss will be good for him now as opposed to happening under different circumstances...he didn't get sparked out either which is also good news.

As for the stoppage, it was coming but I think the timing was God awful....Lee just answered back and seemed to be coming out of it....now before that then yeah I could see it coming. That ref wasn't the best in the world.

This loss is a MINOR setback given the circumstances and the opponent

I'm not gonna debate that boxing fans make too much out of one loss, its obvious that we do. Still not sure that he's really the future though Lyle. If his power isn't enough in a fight I'm not sure he's got the defense or the chin (although that's debatable, sometimes its hard to read a guy's chin) to beat the top level guys. Something I've noticed in a few of his fights is the guy is way too open to right hands. Maybe he can work on that, who knows but Steward needs to calm down and work on his fundamentals and STFU about Pavlik (open to right hands is pretty clearly not a good thing against Pavlik). At least for the time being.

Those things you mentioned are all relatively easy fixes.


Chin - it's really not an issue seeing how he was never down but only stunned and also Brian Vera has fought at super middleweight and given Andy Lee's inexperience in the deeper rounds I would argue that the main reason that Lee got hurt was not only his defense but his stamina.

Defense - This is something Manny can fix, he fixed Tommy Hearns, he fixed Lennox Lewis, and he's fixed Wladimir Klitschko. Lee needs better footwork, he needs better head movement, he needs to keep his hands up, and he needs to have something on the inside either a defense or a punch to keep guys from getting in close to him or both.

Sure he's open to the right cross, what southpaw isn't? The main point is that all the things he lacked on Friday night can be fixed in training, sparring, and more fights.

I think Manny can have Andy ready for a rematch vs Vera in 2-4 fights and Andy will win this time. Hell he could have won Friday had he kept his distance, saved his stamina, and occasionally went to the body. Andy has great handspeed he needed to throw more combinations.

I understand your doubts but hell this is why some people stay away from boxing, those who look like they are unbeatable one day can look silly the next time they fight and not many people can take that and learn from it...with Andy Lee's background in the amateurs and his skill level I am sure this is only a minor setback....hell Jonathan Banks got floored and damn near stopped when he fought Eliseo Castillo on ESPN but he came back and KO'd him in 4 or so...ESPN is a big platform and some fighters don't react well their first time out on the big stage even if they have done big things in the amateurs or in the Olympics.

Good stuff Lyle.....I think some of these trainers and supporters in general need to just calm down and remember that it is a building PROCESS and not an Immediate entitlement.....no pun intended.Experienced trainers are used to the beginnings,middle and finales of fighters careers,They are mentors and leaders and there words have volume to the fighters. These young up-starts sometimes get in and believe it a gospel certainty and learn the hard way of consequences.The hype machine and early rush to get to the big show blinds some to the fact that they have to learn to walk before they can run.We get WAY too caught up in record inflation and "so and so is the next second coming"??

I said it prior and do believe that Lee will learn & build off of this.To spin a positive he got that reality shock at a mid-way up & coming level in a Questionable manner and it was not as if he was flattened buy the first stiff wind punch that came his way.I don't know how far he will go.........but I'll venture to say that when it's all said and done he will surpass Vera by far.Good size and range,heart and I liked his little inside sneaks,that being said his lack of defense and somewhat stiffness is concerning and possibly his conditioning...He looked spent & done at end Imo and Personnaly I agree with the stoppage.Not the end of the world and His next fight will tell us a lot hopefully.

I'll get you back with some rep after I spread it around

I think you're correct in your assesment of Andy Lee is correct however all those things can be fixed with training.

this is a bit off topic but did anybody notice that Teddy picked Katsidis to win?

Seriously, has he ever picked a fight right? I may stop making predictions until the Friday night before a big fight. Its uncanny.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

this is a bit off topic but did anybody notice that Teddy picked Katsidis to win?

Seriously, has he ever picked a fight right? I may stop making predictions until the Friday night before a big fight. Its uncanny.

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Teddy is clever sometimes and then other times he's a moron whether it's picking winners or choosing strategies

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Originally Posted by Mar

Lee easy.....i hope they show the aaron pryor's son, i'm kinda curious.

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I've seen him twice- once where the Pistons play and once somewhere downtown. Looks absolutely NOTHING like his father physically or style-wise. He is tall, gaunt and likes to throw HUGE shots to clear the other guy right out. So far, he's done just that.

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Originally Posted by liquid

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Originally Posted by Mar

Lee easy.....i hope they show the aaron pryor's son, i'm kinda curious.

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I've seen him twice- once where the Pistons play and once somewhere downtown. Looks absolutely NOTHING like his father physically or style-wise. He is tall, gaunt and likes to throw HUGE shots to clear the other guy right out. So far, he's done just that.

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Yeah he is a 6'4" Middleweight.

I can see his dad in his face.

http://www.hawktime.com/sitebuilderc...tures/3Web.gif

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Well I was going to start my own thread about all this but this looks like a fine place to post.


So Andy Lee is supposed to be the next big thing in the middleweight division...well I still believe it and I'm sticking by my boy.


Vera was a solid super middleweight and usually when bringing a fighter a long you find fights vs smaller fighters and build up their confidence. Vera is still a limited fighter but he's tough and stubborn and if you mess up in your strategy this is what happens.

Andy Lee tatooed Vera with power punches....they knocked him down once but never really buster his face up or cut him or bothered him other than a few times.

This fight is where EXPERIENCE would have paid off rather than sheer determination and guts....this is why Wladimir Klitschko is a Champion and (sorry to offend anyone) this is how we really know Andy Lee is Irish.

Andy gave us an exciting fight, trading power punches with someone obviously less talented than himself, both fighters paying little to no attention to defense or skill.....that is how journeymen win, that is how upsets happen and this is a VALUEABLE LEARNING EXPERIENCE. Sure Andy Lee is no longer undefeated but it's one less thing he has to worry about. What Andy has to do now is to regroup, fight on, box a little more, develop his defense and in-fighting(perhaps an uppercut would suit him) and his confidence will come back and he's going to obviously aim for a rematch if he's a smart fella (so it'll answer any questions as he builds his legacy) ....well hell he's Irish I'm sure he'll curse Vera until he has the opportunity to fight him again.

Andy Lee is going to be ok, he's got to pick his spots and learn what Wlad and Lennox and Tommy Hearns have had to learn. Andy answered questions about his chin and his heart and his guts but he has to be a SMART fighter and he can do it, I have no doubts about it...he's going to regroup and this loss will be good for him now as opposed to happening under different circumstances...he didn't get sparked out either which is also good news.

As for the stoppage, it was coming but I think the timing was God awful....Lee just answered back and seemed to be coming out of it....now before that then yeah I could see it coming. That ref wasn't the best in the world.

This loss is a MINOR setback given the circumstances and the opponent

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Do you think Lee has power? I mean he hit Vera with every straight left hand he could possibly throw and still Vera didn't budge.I think he has very good skills but no power and when he's pressured from what I've seen he's lost (meaning he doesn't know what to do, not literally lost).I like 'em but he will never be a champion.

For Aaron Pryor Jr., he's waaaaay too skinny and weak to be fighting at 160 he should put on muscle and be fighting at 175 or at least 168.



I think Andy Lee has good power, Vera can take a punch he just couldn't take Jaidon Codrington's and that was at 168 and without his regular training. I think Brian Vera is a very tough guy and was a little too big of a step up for Andy at this point in his career. Andy could use a few pounds and some more muscle.