Re: Lets get something straight!
I think the key point here is that while it will look like "it's just 2 pounds". It's the effect it has on rehydration or rather lack there of. This will decrease his speed, power, reactions and cut resistance all from 2 little pounds. This is a legitimate gripe, Roach knows exactly what he's doing and what it's buying him in terms of advantages. I am not holding this against Roach at all, he is doing what he can in the best interest of his fighter. What happens in the contracts between the fighters is fine EXCEPT for the titles themselves.
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
I think the key point here is that while it will look like "it's just 2 pounds". It's the effect it has on rehydration or rather lack there of. This will decrease his speed, power, reactions and cut resistance all from 2 little pounds. This is a legitimate gripe, Roach knows exactly what he's doing and what it's buying him in terms of advantages. I am not holding this against Roach at all, he is doing what he can in the best interest of his fighter. What happens in the contracts between the fighters is fine EXCEPT for the titles themselves.
That's a load of crap. Unless you think Cotto and his nutritionist are idiots? Maybe you do, I don't know?
He's not going to dehydrate those two extra pounds in his weight management plan during the days before the fight. He's going to do it more naturally in the gym and through diet to be safe. That argument is just an excuse for losing.
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
I think the key point here is that while it will look like "it's just 2 pounds". It's the effect it has on rehydration or rather lack there of. This will decrease his speed, power, reactions and cut resistance all from 2 little pounds. This is a legitimate gripe, Roach knows exactly what he's doing and what it's buying him in terms of advantages. I am not holding this against Roach at all, he is doing what he can in the best interest of his fighter. What happens in the contracts between the fighters is fine EXCEPT for the titles themselves.
That's a load of crap. Unless you think Cotto and his nutritionist are idiots? Maybe you do, I don't know?
He's not going to dehydrate those two extra pounds in his weight management plan during the days before the fight. He's going to do it more naturally in the gym and through diet to be safe. That argument is just an excuse for losing.
Certainly no fighter would ever put themselves into a position that is not optimally healthy to chase the dollars, is that what you are saying.
Mark my words if Cotto goes through with this you will see a lack of sweat on his body, and if that's the case everything I have said is true.
I'll put sigi bet on this if you'd like.
If it's not a big deal why doesn't PAC just make the fight at Welterweight?
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
I think the key point here is that while it will look like "it's just 2 pounds". It's the effect it has on rehydration or rather lack there of. This will decrease his speed, power, reactions and cut resistance all from 2 little pounds. This is a legitimate gripe, Roach knows exactly what he's doing and what it's buying him in terms of advantages. I am not holding this against Roach at all, he is doing what he can in the best interest of his fighter. What happens in the contracts between the fighters is fine EXCEPT for the titles themselves.
That's a load of crap. Unless you think Cotto and his nutritionist are idiots? Maybe you do, I don't know?
He's not going to dehydrate those two extra pounds in his weight management plan during the days before the fight. He's going to do it more naturally in the gym and through diet to be safe. That argument is just an excuse for losing.
No offense man, and I don't mean this as dickishly as it's going to sound, but you've demonstrated in the past that you have no idea how these sorts of things work.
Re: Lets get something straight!
I have no problem with the catchweight ordeal if they want to fight. But when you are asking the welterweight champion to a fight and for him to put his title on the line then you need to abide by the welterweight range, 141-147. If you don't care about the title...then lets get it on.
Re: Lets get something straight!
The 2 pounds may not be a problem in this case. But it can be a problem. Roach isn't doing it for kicks. Anyone who cuts weight knows that the last 2 or 3 pounds you cut wreak havoc on your body. Let alone another 2 pounds. Come on fellow boxers and wrestlers speak up. I'm not just speaking opinion here. This is factually well known. But it doesn't mean that will be the case here. Either way, skip the shenanigans and I hope this leads to the tournament of tournments. Cotto/Pac then Mosley/PBF and the winners face each other.
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
I think the key point here is that while it will look like "it's just 2 pounds". It's the effect it has on rehydration or rather lack there of. This will decrease his speed, power, reactions and cut resistance all from 2 little pounds. This is a legitimate gripe, Roach knows exactly what he's doing and what it's buying him in terms of advantages. I am not holding this against Roach at all, he is doing what he can in the best interest of his fighter. What happens in the contracts between the fighters is fine EXCEPT for the titles themselves.
That's a load of crap. Unless you think Cotto and his nutritionist are idiots? Maybe you do, I don't know?
He's not going to dehydrate those two extra pounds in his weight management plan during the days before the fight. He's going to do it more naturally in the gym and through diet to be safe. That argument is just an excuse for losing.
Certainly no fighter would ever put themselves into a position that is not optimally healthy to chase the dollars, is that what you are saying.
Mark my words if Cotto goes through with this you will see a lack of sweat on his body, and if that's the case everything I have said is true.
I'll put sigi bet on this if you'd like.
If it's not a big deal why doesn't PAC just make the fight at Welterweight?
Sure that's a sucker bet.... your words are now marked!
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
I think the key point here is that while it will look like "it's just 2 pounds". It's the effect it has on rehydration or rather lack there of. This will decrease his speed, power, reactions and cut resistance all from 2 little pounds. This is a legitimate gripe, Roach knows exactly what he's doing and what it's buying him in terms of advantages. I am not holding this against Roach at all, he is doing what he can in the best interest of his fighter. What happens in the contracts between the fighters is fine EXCEPT for the titles themselves.
That's a load of crap. Unless you think Cotto and his nutritionist are idiots? Maybe you do, I don't know?
He's not going to dehydrate those two extra pounds in his weight management plan during the days before the fight. He's going to do it more naturally in the gym and through diet to be safe. That argument is just an excuse for losing.
No offense man, and I don't mean this as dickishly as it's going to sound, but you've demonstrated in the past that you have no idea how these sorts of things work.
You right, it does sound dickish. If your going to make an argument like that, you need to be specific. Otherwise no one knows what you are talking about! If you have an argument that has substance, lay it out. If I'm wrong and can see the error of my ways, I'm man enough to admit it!
Re: Lets get something straight!
Pac should just fight the 140 pounders and wipe them out, this catch weight thing for titles are upsetting fans of the sport. No one would say anything about Pac fighting at 140 because he has proven that to be his best weight.
He can meet Floyd later at a catchweight for the mythical p4p title, because let's be serious Floyd really isn't a natural welterweight but I don't know if he can make 140 at age 32.
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
That's a load of crap. Unless you think Cotto and his nutritionist are idiots? Maybe you do, I don't know?
He's not going to dehydrate those two extra pounds in his weight management plan during the days before the fight. He's going to do it more naturally in the gym and through diet to be safe. That argument is just an excuse for losing.
No offense man, and I don't mean this as dickishly as it's going to sound, but you've demonstrated in the past that you have no idea how these sorts of things work.
You right, it does sound dickish. If your going to make an argument like that, you need to be specific. Otherwise no one knows what you are talking about! If you have an argument that has substance, lay it out. If I'm wrong and can see the error of my ways, I'm man enough to admit it!
In discussions about this topic in the past, mainly between yourself and AdamGB (who knows a great deal about these types of issues), you had no refutation for the evidence he brought to support his argument that even two pounds can make a huge difference for a fighter. You have no arguments other than "it's only two pounds" and "Cotto/his trainers/whoever wouldn't take the fight if it was unhealthy for him or if he was unable to perform to his usual standards etc..." which is ridiculous. He, like almost anyone else, would do anything within reason to attain the money and potential glory that stems from a Pacquiao fight.
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Pac should just fight the 140 pounders and wipe them out, this catch weight thing for titles are upsetting fans of the sport. No one would say anything about Pac fighting at 140 because he has proven that to be his best weight.
He can meet Floyd later at a catchweight for the mythical p4p title, because let's be serious Floyd really isn't a natural welterweight but I don't know if he can make 140 at age 32.
I agree, Pac and Floyd should just do the catchweight thing. PBF is no real welterweight and they are naturally close in size so it'll be an easier size matchup. Trying to squeeze bigger fighters down and blow up little fighters so they can fight does bring too much controversy. One fight at 140 that I would like to see is Pac/Judah. It would be extreme fireworks as long as it last.
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
No offense man, and I don't mean this as dickishly as it's going to sound, but you've demonstrated in the past that you have no idea how these sorts of things work.
You right, it does sound dickish. If your going to make an argument like that, you need to be specific. Otherwise no one knows what you are talking about! If you have an argument that has substance, lay it out. If I'm wrong and can see the error of my ways, I'm man enough to admit it!
In discussions about this topic in the past, mainly between yourself and AdamGB (who knows a great deal about these types of issues), you had no refutation for the evidence he brought to support his argument that even two pounds can make a huge difference for a fighter. You have no arguments other than "it's only two pounds" and "Cotto/his trainers/whoever wouldn't take the fight if it was unhealthy for him or if he was unable to perform to his usual standards etc..." which is ridiculous. He, like almost anyone else, would do anything within reason to attain the money and potential glory that stems from a Pacquiao fight.
You are taking my arguments out of context. If you want a clarification on a statement, than ask for one.
What that demonistrates is a difference of opinion. I did rebut that claim, If you read back the thread not skimming and picking out parts, you might discover my more complete argument. AdamGB pushes the discussion in to a nuthuggers realm about Pacquaio and away from the debate about catch weight. I wasn't in the mood to go there.
So that you might have a little more comprehention about my argument, I completely understand and don't disagree that two pounds related to dehydration is a big deal. I have never disputed that. Two pound related to weight lost without dehydration or unnatural means for fighting in a weight class is not a big deal and the proper way to do it. Unnatural means of losing weight is a form of cheating and the argument of safety is a basically a technique used to intentionally mislead so that fighters naturally above the weight class can utilize the 24 hour weigh-in period to dehydrate and qualify for the weightclass officially cheating.
Making a catch weight forces the fighter naturally above the weight class to comedown in weight naturally and fight at a more legitimate weight.
The question I have is Do you think really think Cotto is stupid and an idiot?
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
You right, it does sound dickish. If your going to make an argument like that, you need to be specific. Otherwise no one knows what you are talking about! If you have an argument that has substance, lay it out. If I'm wrong and can see the error of my ways, I'm man enough to admit it!
In discussions about this topic in the past, mainly between yourself and AdamGB (who knows a great deal about these types of issues), you had no refutation for the evidence he brought to support his argument that even two pounds can make a huge difference for a fighter. You have no arguments other than "it's only two pounds" and "Cotto/his trainers/whoever wouldn't take the fight if it was unhealthy for him or if he was unable to perform to his usual standards etc..." which is ridiculous. He, like almost anyone else, would do anything within reason to attain the money and potential glory that stems from a Pacquiao fight.
You are taking my arguments out of context. If you want a clarification on a statement, than ask for one.
What that demonistrates is a difference of opinion. I did rebut that claim, If you read back the thread not skimming and picking out parts, you might discover my more complete argument. AdamGB pushes the discussion in to a nuthuggers realm about Pacquaio and away from the debate about catch weight. I wasn't in the mood to go there.
So that you might have a little more comprehention about my argument, I completely understand and don't disagree that two pounds related to dehydration is a big deal. I have never disputed that. Two pound related to weight lost without dehydration or unnatural means for fighting in a weight class is not a big deal and the proper way to do it. Unnatural means of losing weight is a form of cheating and the argument of safety is a basically a technique used to intentionally mislead so that fighters naturally above the weight class can utilize the 24 hour weigh-in period to dehydrate and qualify for the weightclass officially cheating.
Making a catch weight forces the fighter naturally above the weight class to comedown in weight naturally and fight at a more legitimate weight.
The question I have is Do you think really think Cotto is stupid and an idiot?
How did we get from point A to point B? You really have moved the target here. Cotto is making weight at the upper end of Welter and has for over 3 years now. Weighing in at 145 WILL effect him. If you ever talked about anything besides PAC (or the fighters he's going against) there may be some merit to someone not taking your statements as fanboyism. This is to help you know where Adam is coming from. And if you don't think Cotto would dehydrate himself to make a fight happen, what do you think happened in Cotto-Malignaggi fight. Did he win sure, but he sure looked sluggish and exhausted coming down the stretch, even Paulie's punchs seemed to be getting to him. Now granted this was at 140, but like I said it has been 3 years now that he has been weighing in at higher than 145, his body has become accustomed to this weight.
So to answer your question, I don't think Cotto is stupid, but I do think he would go in a situation that is not optimal for a good payday.
The better question is, why if the two pounds won't be a factor can't Cotto come in at the Welterweight limit?
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
In discussions about this topic in the past, mainly between yourself and AdamGB (who knows a great deal about these types of issues), you had no refutation for the evidence he brought to support his argument that even two pounds can make a huge difference for a fighter. You have no arguments other than "it's only two pounds" and "Cotto/his trainers/whoever wouldn't take the fight if it was unhealthy for him or if he was unable to perform to his usual standards etc..." which is ridiculous. He, like almost anyone else, would do anything within reason to attain the money and potential glory that stems from a Pacquiao fight.
You are taking my arguments out of context. If you want a clarification on a statement, than ask for one.
What that demonistrates is a difference of opinion. I did rebut that claim, If you read back the thread not skimming and picking out parts, you might discover my more complete argument. AdamGB pushes the discussion in to a nuthuggers realm about Pacquaio and away from the debate about catch weight. I wasn't in the mood to go there.
So that you might have a little more comprehention about my argument, I completely understand and don't disagree that two pounds related to dehydration is a big deal. I have never disputed that. Two pound related to weight lost without dehydration or unnatural means for fighting in a weight class is not a big deal and the proper way to do it. Unnatural means of losing weight is a form of cheating and the argument of safety is a basically a technique used to intentionally mislead so that fighters naturally above the weight class can utilize the 24 hour weigh-in period to dehydrate and qualify for the weightclass officially cheating.
Making a catch weight forces the fighter naturally above the weight class to comedown in weight naturally and fight at a more legitimate weight.
The question I have is Do you think really think Cotto is stupid and an idiot?
How did we get from point A to point B? You really have moved the target here. Cotto is making weight at the upper end of Welter and has for over 3 years now. Weighing in at 145 WILL effect him. If you ever talked about anything besides PAC (or the fighters he's going against) there may be some merit to someone not taking your statements as fanboyism. This is to help you know where Adam is coming from. And if you don't think Cotto would dehydrate himself to make a fight happen, what do you think happened in Cotto-Malignaggi fight. Did he win sure, but he sure looked sluggish and exhausted coming down the stretch, even Paulie's punchs seemed to be getting to him. Now granted this was at 140, but like I said it has been 3 years now that he has been weighing in at higher than 145, his body has become accustomed to this weight.
So to answer your question, I don't think Cotto is stupid, but I do think he would go in a situation that is not optimal for a good payday.
The better question is, why if the two pounds won't be a factor can't Cotto come in at the Welterweight limit?
I don't understand your question getting from point A to point B.
It's a better question, but it doesn't have the sarcasm, I posed the question because proponents of not having a catch weight are arguing that Cotto / Mosley or whoever would take the extra weight off by dehydrating further than his norm, making an even further drain on their body. If that is in fact the case, then the fighter has no business fighting in the weightclass, since the weightclass is defined as 140-147 and not just at 147.
Now of course lowering the limit will affect him, that's the whole point of making a catch weight and I will accept the fact that Cotto's judgement could be impared by greed but he doesn't strike me as being an idiot either.
Some people say it is unfair to have a catch weight to the guy coming down in weight, I don't agree and have laid out my reasons why.
This subject may have originated from Pacquiao fighting at a catch weight, but my opinions about weightclass and catch weights have nothing to do with Pacquaio specifically and are generic to any fighter.
Re: Lets get something straight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
You are taking my arguments out of context. If you want a clarification on a statement, than ask for one.
What that demonistrates is a difference of opinion. I did rebut that claim, If you read back the thread not skimming and picking out parts, you might discover my more complete argument. AdamGB pushes the discussion in to a nuthuggers realm about Pacquaio and away from the debate about catch weight. I wasn't in the mood to go there.
So that you might have a little more comprehention about my argument, I completely understand and don't disagree that two pounds related to dehydration is a big deal. I have never disputed that. Two pound related to weight lost without dehydration or unnatural means for fighting in a weight class is not a big deal and the proper way to do it. Unnatural means of losing weight is a form of cheating and the argument of safety is a basically a technique used to intentionally mislead so that fighters naturally above the weight class can utilize the 24 hour weigh-in period to dehydrate and qualify for the weightclass officially cheating.
Making a catch weight forces the fighter naturally above the weight class to comedown in weight naturally and fight at a more legitimate weight.
The question I have is Do you think really think Cotto is stupid and an idiot?
How did we get from point A to point B? You really have moved the target here. Cotto is making weight at the upper end of Welter and has for over 3 years now. Weighing in at 145 WILL effect him. If you ever talked about anything besides PAC (or the fighters he's going against) there may be some merit to someone not taking your statements as fanboyism. This is to help you know where Adam is coming from. And if you don't think Cotto would dehydrate himself to make a fight happen, what do you think happened in Cotto-Malignaggi fight. Did he win sure, but he sure looked sluggish and exhausted coming down the stretch, even Paulie's punchs seemed to be getting to him. Now granted this was at 140, but like I said it has been 3 years now that he has been weighing in at higher than 145, his body has become accustomed to this weight.
So to answer your question, I don't think Cotto is stupid, but I do think he would go in a situation that is not optimal for a good payday.
The better question is, why if the two pounds won't be a factor can't Cotto come in at the Welterweight limit?
I don't understand your question getting from point A to point B.
It's a better question, but it doesn't have the sarcasm, I posed the question because proponents of not having a catch weight are arguing that Cotto / Mosley or whoever would take the extra weight off by dehydrating further than his norm, making an even further drain on their body. If that is in fact the case, then the fighter has no business fighting in the weightclass, since the weightclass is defined as 140-147 and not just at 147.
Now of course lowering the limit will affect him, that's the whole point of making a catch weight and I will accept the fact that Cotto's judgement could be impared by greed but he doesn't strike me as being an idiot either.
Some people say it is unfair to have a catch weight to the guy coming down in weight, I don't agree and have laid out my reasons why.
This subject may have originated from Pacquiao fighting at a catch weight, but my opinions about weightclass and catch weights have nothing to do with Pacquaio specifically and are generic to any fighter.
I'm glad you agree.
