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My mother is 1/4 Cherokee, my ancestors were on the Trail of Tears and I have a BA in History but clearly I'm in denial and Miles the bigoted foreigner has the more clear perspective on the US. By his definition the black plague and any protracted military engagements between differing ethnicities are synanamous with holocaust.
Some times people rely so much on "book smarts" their common sense withers up and diesQuote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
I have a BA in History and Politics too, I don't see what that proves. I am sure plenty of learners learn more about history away from their ideologically accepted lecture halls. I certainly have. Having Indian blood is irrelevant to the argument unless you were actually partaking in events from 200 years ago. Otherwise, it is just a distraction.
What I do maintain is that invasion, slaughter, concentration camps and the subsequent murder by gun or illness inflected by purpose or accident count towards the genocide. The black plague was a plague alone. It wasn't also based around invasion, massive land theft and massacres of largely indigenous people. Quite different.
You fail to support your argument and resort to ad hominem but me pointing out that I have a much deeper connection to the Native American issues in my country's history and I'm the distraction? The millions that died from the black plague brought by rats in boats were as random as the millions that died in North America from disease brought by European explorers. Neither being genocide or comparable to the Holocaust.
I have no reason to support anything. A Google search will provide you with a list of different authors and their various estimates. I don't need to convince anyone of any of this. It's too obvious.
Also, the argument that the native indian issue is closer to you personally is a bit silly. Maybe for your ancestors who were living in difficult times and experiences hardship, but you here today? It's like me saying my grandfathers experiences in WW2 bring me closer to the experience of war. Of course it does not. My own personal reading does.
Masscres, concentration camps, ethnic cleansing, people dying from hunger and starvation. I struggle to see how this was not comparable to the holocaust. The issue you have is with timescale and disease, but most concentration camp members would die because of hunger and disease. Then of course you factor in those murdered and you have a horrendous catastrophe. It was genocide and in terms of scale you can easily compare it the holocaust.
The black plague is a strange argument to make because it really was just about disease. There was no invasion, no massacres, no slaughtering etc. Quite distinct. The North America genocide was far more similiar to the holocaust than the Black Plague. US history likes to downplay the crimes involved in creating America. It is understandable, but it is also untrue. We speak of Hitler and Nazi Germany in far more derogatory terms and yet the very invents that inspired Hitler originated in North America. What better way to deal with a group of people? The connection should be made because the parallels are quite obvious. The concentration camp is not a German concept.
You stated that the US has murdered millions of Native Americans. No historian supports this adding to your long list of ignorance on most things American.
I take great pride in my heritage and it is important to me to know my family's history. We have written accounts from our ancestors that took part in the Trail of Tears. As usual you have never lived on or visited this country, been to a reservation or probably even met a tribes member but feel that you are more informed on the topic. You read selected works on the US. I live it.
The most basic failure of your analogy is that most of the Native American deaths from disease had already happened before conquest was even a thought. The first explorers had no idea they were exposing the Natives to diseases they had no immune defenses to and being explorers or refugees in small groups surely weren't intending to use this as a setup for military conquests a hundred + years later. The crux of genocide is a systematic intent. The deaths from European disease in North America were as random as the ones from the Black Plague. Both lacked an intent to kill a group or a systematic methodology.
By the time the colonials and later Americans were engaging the Native Tribes in military action the native population had been ravaged by disease for 100 years. The deaths from these conquests are no where near the Holocaust numbers and more importantly are no different than any other deaths from any other wars of that time.
You are being a bit absurd here. Chomsky puts the estimated population of old America as between 12 and 15 million. Of those that remained once the entire land mass had been stolen were 250,000 and that is not a small decline. He readily calls it genocide as do many. Disease and hunger were factors, but likewise, those were factors in the holocaust. The other obvious factors were outright murder, massacres and concentration camps. The severity of which easily brings forth comparisons to Hitler's Germany. The history of America is a sordid and brutal one. It doesn't matter if I have been to a reservation or not. Historically they were forced on the population and conditions were deplorable. Many died from hunger and illness in such conditions and this is what happened in concentration camps in Germany. The model was taken from the North America approach to the indigenous problem. You might live in America, but that is not really an argument. You have never lived the life of a 19th century Indian.
The crux of genocide is 'systemic intent' is you suggest, but the Nazi's wanted people to use as labour. The death by processes such as disease or hunger was not necessarily intentional and thus explains the vast bulk of lives lost in the holocaust. The same thing happened to Native Indians in North American concentration camps. Settlers waged a war that took place over a handful of centuries and on the way wiped out most of the population. It is pretty unprecendented behaviour.
We are going round in circles on this one now. My take that the treatment is comparable to Nazi Germany is something you dispute, but what is far less contentious is the fact that genocide was commited. Killing all Indians was the aim of numerous politicians and militiamen and they almost succeeded in wiping them out once the land grab had been completed.
Miles your racist diatribe is becoming tiresome you are continuing to deny the holocaust with silly talk of it being the result of forced labour and not systematic murder. Your reputation for being somehow intellectually astute here on this forum is laughable. You are a joke. Everything you say is opinion not rational, considered or factual. You claim that history students learn more away from academic institutions and then dismiss Victor and his families real world experiences because you actually have no interest in Native Americans or their plight they are like the Palestinians a convenient stick with which to beat those you see as the enemy. The fact that you are despite marrying a South Korean still not a fluent speaker of the language and are still happy to take advantage of a countries hospitality, and teach students English says quite a lot about you.
I don't deny the holocaust, it occured. But holocaust is an old word and does not speak for the Hitler extermination process alone. It only became about the Jews from the 1960's onwards. In fact all you do here is jump into a thread and offer a bunch of insults. What is the point in that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
I have learned a lot more about history on my own than on a university course. It isn't an outlandish suggestion. One needn't have been to university to read books, newpapers and journals. As for suggesting what my interests might be, then you are just making presumptions. You do not know my motivations. Wrong is wrong and feel it fair to argue when I feel like doing so. It doesn't matter if VC is 1/8th Indian, he is from a more civilised age, and has never experienced the hardship that they did.
And excuse me? Your final points are disgraceful. You have no idea idea what Korean abilities I possess and am a permanent resident here. Hospitality doesn't come into it, this is my home and I am no guest. A language component is typically part of the process. What does that have to do with anything anyway? You are just a bored individual looking to fence with insults. I find that boring.
You are a feeble man to just jump into a thread casting insults despite having nothing to add. You make assumptions that really have no merit. Just nonsensical. We read history in books. Genetics are genetics. I have certainly never learned much about life from my own dead relatives of 100 years ago and likely neither have the vast majority of us. Most die in relative silence.
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You've soured my mood now. There are numerous books on the subject. Stannards book American Holocaust gives extremely harsh numbers and documents in depth the brutality and slaughter of an ethnic group. What do I have to gain by stating that an entire group was almost eradicated. Do I get satisfaction from that? No, it appalls me and it is my reaction to those distressing feelings that compels me. My logic and rationale comes from relatively straightforward moral truisms. You cannot say one action is not comparable to another action when both involved starvation, illness and slaughter. The comparisons are too obvious.
I have made my statements and they can be supported by the writings of others who have done the proper research. To find books and titles, Amazon and Google are good friends.
I cannot share what I read on my Kindle and am a bit lazy, but found here a suitable extract from Stannard that shows the brutality of what occured. It is just appalling and modern America was founded on one of the most brutal of holocausts/genocides. America is a country founded on notions of racial superiority and slavery. These are not controversial statements. Religion and intellectualism was and is a tool for enhancing power and control and if that means slaughtering people then that is what they do. It continues to happen apace today, though not in North America as the goal was largely achieved.
American Holocaust Sex, Race and Holy War
Arguments are going around in circles now and others are just jumping in to be cretins, so will quieten down. I don't claim that North America is special, but there are certainly a number of events in history that can be classed as holocausts themselves and the holocaust was not a Jewish phenomenon. It is not racist to say that Jews were only part of a wider program of labour and eventually annihilation.
Miles if you look on page ONE of the thread you will see how in posts 6 and 8 I refuted your silly, childish and offensive opinions. The holocaust is not some political football to idly kick around in an effort to score points. You did not have the decency to respond because you like Chomsky have an agenda. You are ranting with no forethought, your claims can not be given credence because you are not engaging in a discussion. You call a country your home and then claim you have not learned to speak its language fluently, that speaks volumes.
There is nothing silly or childish in discusing holocaust revisionism and there is certainly nothing wrong with saying that too much time is given to the holocaust rather than of equally important events including North America and beyond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
I don't have an agenda. As always I see abuse of power and want to get to the heart of things. To point out the blatant wrong in abuse. Unfortunately with these kinds of history we have all kinds of numbers bandied around by many.
I speak Korean to medium level of comprehension, hardly fluent in any meaningfull way, but better than many. Irrelevant really.
I don't even need to ask miles anymore about America, I already know he assumes the worst of the nation, the people, and the culture. Why that is the case is a bit curious, he seems to believe it's the sophisticated liberal intellectual elite view and that is true those people who preach their gospel of white guilt see America as the great evil in the world. It's not a matter of defeating Facism or Communism or anything, it's about rising to a level of power so high that we "must have cheated" in order to have obtained it and the cries of how "unfair" things are will continue until the end.