Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Michalczewski was the lineal champ, the true champ, so Roy should have travelled to him. Why should the champ risk getting robbed in America?
Was Mariusz ranked higher than RJJ? The fighter makes the belt, not the other way around.
Roy was the undisputed #1 p4p. Roy was the big name of the two(figuratively, not literally obviously). As such, people should be coming for you, not the other way around.
I'm a Tiger fan for sure, but he would have gotten obliterated by Roy Jones of the late 90s/early 2000s.
Michalczewski was THE champ. You can't get higher ranked than that. Yes fighters make the belt, and once you've established yourself as the legit no.1 belts are utterly meaningless.
I agree Roy was the better fighter, I agree Roy would have won, and I agree Roy was the mythical P4P best in the world.
However, he wasn't the true lightheavy champ. You can't just ignore an already established champion, becuase you're not willing to travel, and then claim to be the king because you pick up a couple of his leftover belts.
As the challenger the onus really was on Roy to make the fight not Michalczewski.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
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Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
Did Oscar lose anything losing to Pacquiao? In my opinion he did not.
Personally I think that was one of the most embarrassing big-fight losses I've ever seen. De La Hoya, a 154lber, got absolutey smashed by a guy who was fighting at 130 two fights before that.
The only saving grace for DLH was the excuses that he was washed up and probably weight drained.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
I agree with both of you. There is a certain point a fighter can reach that makes them untouchable no matter what occurs in the late stages of a career, in terms of hall of fame consideration. At the highest peaks (say top 100 of a century) one almost gets nit-picky over the differences between them.
On the other point, I think Roy would have out-slicked Dariusz, but Jones didn't. It wasn't a promotional issue, as the traveling Roy Jones show went on for years without a competitive fight. Part of this has to be attributed to his Michael Jordan-esque athletic ability. The other, he hid from his senior challenge for years at light-heavy, until even his most ardent fans began to see him waving his belts around as disingenuous.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Though Roy Jones won a title at Heavyweight, he never won the championship. Lennox would have remembered.
Dariusz may never have been p4p champ, but he was good enough for Roy to forfeit the legitimacy of the position by way of fear factor.
Roy did get the raw end of the deal in the gold medal match in Korea, but hopefully the Val Barker cup was a suitable substitute as best of the best. In either case it does not excuse him from performing his duty as a professional. The location is a consideration, but probably not the senior one, as Jones was terrified of Dariusz. A slow moving Ruiz would not have beaten Roy had he weighed 300 pounds.
By the way, do any of you remember way back to the 84 Olympics, when the Korean's felt slighted by what they viewed as hometown decisions against their athletes. They said, after a fashion, the next time is on our turf. Wait until we get you over there.
They did it, too, didn't they?
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Michalczewski was THE champ. You can't get higher ranked than that. Yes fighters make the belt, and once you've established yourself as the legit no.1 belts are utterly meaningless.
I agree Roy was the better fighter, I agree Roy would have won, and I agree Roy was the mythical P4P best in the world.
However, he wasn't the true lightheavy champ. You can't just ignore an already established champion, becuase you're not willing to travel, and then claim to be the king because you pick up a couple of his leftover belts.
As the challenger the onus really was on Roy to make the fight not Michalczewski.
I can appreciate the fact that he was the linear champ, but what do belts really mean in boxing compared to public perception? Belts are treated like the tin they are for the most part; fighters willingly relinquish them, fighters are stripped for rediculous reasons, fighters have to fight illegitimate mandatories, ect ect. Favourable public perception isn't as easily attained.
It's all well and good that Dariusz had the linear title, but what good is a title if no one recognized him for it? Everyone looked at Roy Jones as the #1 LHW in the world for all those years. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. And who really needed that fight more? Roy Jones will go down as an all-time great. A belt holder in multiple weight divisions. Dariusz is a guy who, outside of Germany and Poland, only big boxing nuts really know or care about.
My point is that even though Mariusz had the title, he standed to gain a lot more with a win over Roy Jones than vice versa. And for that reason, he should have sucked it up and came over for his shot at greatness. Roy Jones didn't need him on his resume.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?
Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.
Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.
And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!
Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.
P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.
And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
christianshreve
location is a consideration, but probably not the senior one, as Jones was terrified of Dariusz.
I don't know why you'd jump to that conclusion. I don't see how it's ducking, as Roy was completely willing to fight the guy. It'd be different if he wasn't acknowledging Dariusz existed, or if he used the old "he needs to fight (so and so) before he deserves a shot at me", ect ect.
We're not talking about a guy who refused to fight Dariusz. They couldn't agree to terms, which in the end is Dariusz' loss.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Michalczewski was THE champ. You can't get higher ranked than that. Yes fighters make the belt, and once you've established yourself as the legit no.1 belts are utterly meaningless.
I agree Roy was the better fighter, I agree Roy would have won, and I agree Roy was the mythical P4P best in the world.
However, he wasn't the true lightheavy champ. You can't just ignore an already established champion, becuase you're not willing to travel, and then claim to be the king because you pick up a couple of his leftover belts.
As the challenger the onus really was on Roy to make the fight not Michalczewski.
I can appreciate the fact that he was the linear champ, but what do belts really mean in boxing compared to public perception? Belts are treated like the tin they are for the most part; fighters willingly relinquish them, fighters are stripped for rediculous reasons, fighters have to fight illegitimate mandatories, ect ect. Favourable public perception isn't as easily attained.
It's all well and good that Dariusz had the linear title, but what good is a title if no one recognized him for it? Everyone looked at Roy Jones as the #1 LHW in the world for all those years. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. And who really needed that fight more? Roy Jones will go down as an all-time great. A belt holder in multiple weight divisions. Dariusz is a guy who, outside of Germany and Poland, only big boxing nuts really know or care about.
My point is that even though Mariusz had the title, he standed to gain a lot more with a win over Roy Jones than vice versa. And for that reason, he should have sucked it up and came over for his shot at greatness. Roy Jones didn't need him on his resume.
I agree with you.
But this is a forum for boxing nerds (;D). Where else is this shit gonna get discussed
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Lineal titles honestly don't mean that much ... especially when the line of succession is usually interrupted.
Look at the linear heavyweight title and see how many breaks, holes and vacancies there are. Spinks vacated his linear title as LHW champ when he moved up to HW ... Virgil Hill never beat Spinks to become the lineal champion, he won a vacant title.
The linear title is the same as the WBA, WBC etc. its just more glorified for some kind of historical reason that really isn't even there.
Roy was the man at LHW and carried nearly every belt and title at that division except for the linear title.
I don't think that either Dariusz or Roy avoided each other ... neither seemed to want to fight away from their home countries hence the potential unification bout between them never materialized.
When Shannon Briggs was the lineal champion was he really the best heavyweight in the world? How about Michael Moorer?
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Guess I wandered off topic.
Jones is a comparison point for Mayweather, to an extent, as he hid from his chief challenge for years.
An old announcer used to say that certain fighters had "the style to give others all they could handle." When referring to a proposed bout between Whitaker and Chavez, the man said "Whitaker has the style, and the discipline within the style, to give Chavez's type of fighter all he could handle."
Mayweather matches up favorably to Manny in the way Pernell matched up with Chavez.
This is all a moot point. Floyd didn't think he could win, and wasn't willing to try. So went 4 years.
Floyd is an absolute master, and I would have given him the nod 7 times out of 10 over the Filipino phenom , but the will to win exceeds the skill to win, and Floyd didn't accept Manny's challenge.
It seems probable that he wouldn't have faced Chavez, had he been Whitaker.
It seems inevitable that he will hide at 154 from Trout and Canelo.
Pity that. But he was a legitimate p4p champ for years on end and has the Hall-of-fame in the bag twice over.
I just wish he realized that he could have lost to Pacquiao in 11 seconds of the first round and been better off than this stand has placed him. Even people who don't follow boxing, like comedian Daniel Tosh, spout off about what they consider humiliating cowardice by Floyd Mayweather jr. No one who gives their best in the ring deserves to be called a coward, but Mayweather's "no mas" cry is more blatant than Duran's was in his second Leonard fight, because at least Roberto was wiling to get in the ring and try for a few rounds.
Whatever comes out of his mouth now about not really being terrified of "Pacman" all these long years strikes a false chord and no longer resembles analytical commentary.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?
Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.
Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.
And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!
Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.
P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.
And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."
Fenster,
Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.
You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.
How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.
Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.
I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?
Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.
Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.
And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!
Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.
P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.
And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."
Fenster,
Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.
You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.
How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.
Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.
I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.
Roy had about 8 titles when Dariusz had the lineal title and the WBO strap
8>2
Virgil Hill never beat Spinks for the lineal title, hence the chain of succession was broken and restarted with Hill winning that title in an elimination bout. Dariusz beat Hill for the linear title by decision. Roy then beat Hill in a more convincing, spectacular fashion via KO.
Roy Jones Jr. was the man at LHW.
