Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
So since this is a debate just how would Tyson do against the champs of the past and their competition?
Starting around 1906: Left out the likes of Corbett, Fitzy, Jeffries and Sullivan.
Call it catharsis. Been seeing these threads since the internet was invented.
Tommy Burns. Tyson destroys him and anybody he beat legitimately.
Jack Johnson. With the exception of Jeanette, Langford and Mcvea who would pose problems for Mike I think he waxes everyone on Johnson’s ledger and beats Jack himself.
Dempsey and Willard. Tyson beats the piss out of both of them and anyone on both of their charts.
Tunney. He never defended once he won it but head to head I just don’t see him keeping Mike off him and with or without the neutral corner rule I think he leaves the ring on his back.
Schmeling. Tyson beats him anyone he did with the exception of Louis and if people are honest with themselves there is a chance he gets to Louis also.
Sharkey. Tyson slaughters him beats all he did.
Carnera. Ditto
Baer. Tyson v Max would have been fun to watch. Tyson beats everybody he ever fought.
Braddock. Tyson again.
Louis. I would tend to lean with Louis and I think a prime Walcott would be tough on Tyson. I think a prime Ezzard could beat Tyson. Tyson beats up everyone else on Joe’s hit list.
Charles. See above and I think guys like Johnson and Satterfield would have been good scraps with Mike. Can’t discount some of those Murderers Row guys with anyone really although they all may have been too small in their prime.
Jersey Joe. Essentially covered.
Marciano. The Rock deserves his respect but he would not last long with Tyson nor would anyone he fought when he fought them. He never fought any of the guys already mentioned in their prime or even close to it.
Floyd Patterson. He gets blasted out by Tyson and in Liston like fashion. Speaking of Sonny that is a hell of a fight. They could easily split a couple. Laugh if you will but I think Chuvalo’s durability troubles Mike but Tyson beats everyone else Floyd did.
Johansson. Tyson rubs him out along with everyone he fought.
Liston. Hell of a fight between the two but once again nobody he beat bothers Mike. Williams gives him a go but that’s about it
Terrell. Tyson beats him and anyone he beat except one that he lost to.
Ali. Here is where Tyson runs into some trouble. I’ll leave out those already mentioned.
Frazier was my favourite hev but I don’t think he hangs with Tyson. Mike was faster, had better feet and head movement and concussive power from both sides. Hell of a fight but I think Mike prevails. Norton's crab style may have given issues to the likes of Ali and Holmes but it simply does not work with Tyson. It’s a 50/50 fight
Foreman. Frazier's fight simply does not reflect how a Tyson fight pans out. Nobody really got to Foreman prior to Ron Lyle. Tyson gets to him and once he decks Foreman his finishing kick would finish the job. Speaking of Lyle imo he has a much better chance at Tyson then Foreman despite being beaten by him. That’s another 50/50 fight. I think Jimmy Young has the goods to beat Tyson. Not much hope for Earnie I’m afraid and Leon might lose his life. I think Mike at his best beats any version of Holmes. I believe a prime Ali beats Mike but it’s not a walk in the park.
Holmes. Anyone Holmes beat Mike beats with perhaps a few exceptions. I think a more experienced Witherspoon gives Tyson some issues and a prime Mercer. We all know that Holyfield beat Mike but I don’t think he beats the late eighties version or its certainly not clear that he would.
The 80’s and 90’s are pretty self explanatory since he was in them and the only two up to say 1999 that beat a prime Tyson are most likely Lennox and Vitali. It’s hard to know what happened for sure to Mike on that fateful night in Tokyo but to his credit Douglas fought a perfect fight and probably could not have done it twice given how he looked against Holyfield. Bowe probably would have given him a good scrap. Moorer would be in a coma.
From 2000 on I again do not see anyone other then Lewis or Vitali that beat a prime Mike including all the belt holders and anyone they fought. If Sanders was serious he may have had a chance but Mike cruises through.
Wlad. The Wlad of today might have a shot but nobody on his list does.
My conclusion: This is just my opinion based on the whole picture. I never even liked Tyson and kept going out of my way to see his fights hoping he would lose. As much as Leonard stopping Hearns in the 14th was one of my worst nights, seeing Tyson on all fours reaching for his mouth piece was a highlight. My personal feelings are simply not relevant.
Tyson is an ATG and 1st ballot hall of famer.
Tyson is a Top 10 ATG heavyweight.
Tyson is arguably a Top 5 ATG heavyweight.
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Gene Tunney defended his heavyweight title 2 times, the rematch vs Dempsey and a fight vs Tom Heeney.
Max Baer fought Joe Louis, and no way no how does Tyson beat Louis. Joe was too powerful and too precise with his punches.
But that was a very long list so good on you for posting that
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Max Baer fought Joe Louis, and no way no how does Tyson beat Louis. Joe was too powerful and too precise with his punches.
I say Tyson kills Louis. Inside of 3 rounds.
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Mike Tyson destroys anyone from 1960 downward. Not necessarily because he was a better fighter than some of these guys, but he had the benefit of more modern sport science and "nutrition" (take that to mean what you want). Athletically, we've come a long way since Joe Louis' day.
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Mike Tyson destroys anyone from 1960 downward. Not necessarily because he was a better fighter than some of these guys, but he had the benefit of more modern sport science and "nutrition" (take that to mean what you want). Athletically, we've come a long way since Joe Louis' day.
We all have our opinions
Now answer about Riddick Bowe somebody!!! In detail 1. Prime vs Prime, 2. Circa 1993 after Bowe beat Holyfield provided that Tyson didn't go to jail and 3. in 1996 after beating Holyfield in the rubber match but before the Golota fights and Tyson would have just gotten done beating Bruce Seldon
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
We all have our opinions
Only the first sentence was opinion.
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Only the first sentence was opinion.
Of course.....and so Riddick Bowe???
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Gene Tunney defended his heavyweight title 2 times, the rematch vs Dempsey and a fight vs Tom Heeney.
Max Baer fought Joe Louis, and no way no how does Tyson beat Louis. Joe was too powerful and too precise with his punches.
But that was a very long list so good on you for posting that
Yeah I know he did but he never really went on a run. I also know that Baer fought Louis. I was going at first in the order that fighters became belt holders or recognized as such so I mixed in two angles or I would have went over the character limit. I don't think its far fetched to suggest that Tyson beats Louis. Joe had a shaky chin and Mike would not have to look for him. Its not like Louis would be using the shoot and run tactic. The point was to show that Tyson love him or hate him deserves to be in the conversation when talking about the greatest heavyweights of all time.
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Gene Tunney defended his heavyweight title 2 times, the rematch vs Dempsey and a fight vs Tom Heeney.
Max Baer fought Joe Louis, and no way no how does Tyson beat Louis. Joe was too powerful and too precise with his punches.
But that was a very long list so good on you for posting that
Yeah I know he did but he never really went on a run. I also know that Baer fought Louis. I was going at first in the order that fighters became belt holders or recognized as such so I mixed in two angles or I would have went over the character limit. I don't think its far fetched to suggest that Tyson beats Louis. Joe had a shaky chin and Mike would not have to look for him. Its not like Louis would be using the shoot and run tactic. The point was to show that Tyson love him or hate him deserves to be in the conversation when talking about the greatest heavyweights of all time.
I don't think Joe's chin was shaky so much as he could get knocked off balance every so often...I mean 72 total fights and only 2 stoppage losses, one coming when he was really long in the tooth vs one of the greatest pound for pound punchers in the history of the game....come on now.
Mike Tyson IS great, I never denied it...I just have a tough time fitting him securely in the top 10, but he's certainly in the neighborhood.
So yes....about Tyson vs Bowe?
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Gene Tunney defended his heavyweight title 2 times, the rematch vs Dempsey and a fight vs Tom Heeney.
Max Baer fought Joe Louis, and no way no how does Tyson beat Louis. Joe was too powerful and too precise with his punches.
But that was a very long list so good on you for posting that
Yeah I know he did but he never really went on a run. I also know that Baer fought Louis. I was going at first in the order that fighters became belt holders or recognized as such so I mixed in two angles or I would have went over the character limit. I don't think its far fetched to suggest that Tyson beats Louis. Joe had a shaky chin and Mike would not have to look for him. Its not like Louis would be using the shoot and run tactic. The point was to show that Tyson love him or hate him deserves to be in the conversation when talking about the greatest heavyweights of all time.
I don't think Joe's chin was shaky so much as he could get knocked off balance every so often...I mean 72 total fights and only 2 stoppage losses, one coming when he was really long in the tooth vs one of the greatest pound for pound punchers in the history of the game....come on now.
Mike Tyson IS great, I never denied it...I just have a tough time fitting him securely in the top 10, but he's certainly in the neighborhood.
So yes....about Tyson vs Bowe?
Bowe may have beaten him but the reverse is also the case. Shame they had a blood oath not to fight each other. I think Tua and Ike would have also been interesting fights with Mike.
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Holyfeild had one of the greatest resumes of any fighter i have ever seen no fighter has gone for 175 to heavyweight and been consider top ten but Holyfeild. No way Tyson can beat Holyfeild unless he has a heart attack in the ring which could happen. He was a better boxer then Tyson and had a better chin, he also would smother Tyson inside game and if he had to get dirty Holyfeild makes Hopkins blush. Tyson is great i give him top ten but unlike the others he is kinda like a what if, Holyfield, Lennox, and Ali showed that they could win vs guys that are in the top ten.
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Holyfeild had a one of the greatest resume of any fighter i have ever seen no fighter has gone for 175 to heavyweight and been consider top ten but Holyfeild. No way Tyson can beat Holyfeild unless he has a heart attack in the ring which could happen. He was a better boxer then Tyson and had a better chin, he also would smother Tyson inside game and if he had to get dirty Holyfeild make Hopkins blush. Tyson great i give him top ten but unlike the others he kinda like what if, Holyfield, Lennox, and Ali showed that they could win vs guys that are in the top ten.
To which everyone will mention Larry Holmes who Tyson beat the dog crap out of is a Top 10 All-Time Great Heavyweight.
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
There was a point where a Tyson fight and a Bowe fight were scheduled for the same weekend in Vegas- maybe Tyson vs Byrd, and a Bowe/Holyfield fight, and I think the Tyson fight was rescheduled- and my friend was in town that weekend. He watched Tyson work out and Bowe workout. He said that Tyson was a whole level above bowe in terms of speed and power. For what that is worth.
I think Louis beats Tyson just about every time. There is, of course, the chance that Tyson comes out and blitzes Louis. But I don't think that is likely because Louis didn't start slow so much as he took his time. Come out, make him fight, and he'd go right with you. I think he would time Tyson coming in with those punches he threw, and he is the most devastating puncher ever. And if louis started landing the jab, then Tyson is in for a one way beating for as long as he could take it.
But I think Tyson beats Ali, especially the young Ali. We'll get into that when the protests come.
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Even though Larry was coming off losses and a 2 year lay off i give Tyson the win but Holyfeild and Lennox had more and they kicked Tyson ass as for Ali well his resume speaks for its self.
Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
There have been two all time great heavyweights since the war, Joe Louis and Cassius Clay. Unfortunately Rocky Marciano does not deserve to join them because he was never tested against serious opposition (most of his opponents were over 40 years old), bit like Joe Calzaghe but that's for another thread.
The best that Mike Tyson can hope for, if we exclude the cheating and fouling in the ring, together with even worse behaviour outside, is that he is compared favourably to Joe Frazier, a fighter of similar style, an Olympic Champion but still not quite an all time great.
The worst that we can remember about Mike Tyson is that a generation of dangerous dogs were named after him by phsycopathic nutters who beleived the 80's hype (some even named their kids after him!).
So lets get it in perspective, Joe Frazier acheived far more in his career than Mike Tyson, who has been humiliated many times since Buster Douglas sussed him out.
