Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
There are always questions that arise when considering greatness. Are we pitting greats vs greats or are we looking solely at records and what has been accomplished during their eras or are we doing a mix of the two. Also one HAS to consider the fact that there used to only be 1 belt and now there's a billion of them and it makes it difficult to compare and contrast title holders because you don't fight the exact same competition if you have the WBC belt or IBF belt or WBA belt. To his credit Wladimir did make the WBO a LEGITIMATE heavyweight title based on his performances as it's champion.
This is why Joe Louis is ALWAYS my A#1 Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time. He fought anyone and everyone, he fought quality AND quantity, and he had the longest run as Champion AND he had years of his prime taken away due to World War II (which nobody ever mentions the way they mention Ali's layoff).
Now looking at Wladimir, he's a flawed heavyweight. He has had losses, but everyone (bar Marciano) on the list of Greats has suffered losses. Some shocking like Lewis-Rahman I, some understandable Ali-Frazier I or Tyson-Holyfield, and some were just bad calls Lewis-Holyfield I & II. Wlad's defeats were shocking, but all the more shocking is his ability to reinvent himself as a fighter, paper over the cracks in his game and become the dominant champion AFTER such shocking defeats...I mean the only other guys to get smacked down like Wlad did and bounce back to become even more dominant are Joe Louis (Schmeling I) and Lennox Lewis (Oliver McCall I). Wlad has had a reign as champion longer than everyone but Joe Louis, he's now been in more title fights than Muhammad Ali, he's defended his titles 14 or so times, he has held the IBF, WBO and IBO Heavyweight Championships longer than any other fighter in history, and he has defended those titles more than any other fighter.
He is an all-time great based on his accomplishments during his era, to deny it is to deny history. He can only fight who is in his era, and he has been willing to fight them all. Is Wlad "The Greatest", no and I don't think anyone is making that case, but he IS an All-Time great, there's very little to argue about when considering that just given the stats he has. He fights all the time, he defends his titles, he's undefeated in rematches, he wins by KO/TKO more often than not, what more do you want? Maybe he could fight in a more exciting manner, but shit if you're winning why change something that is working? Nobody asks Hopkins or Mayweather Jr to change their styles.
I'd put Wlad in the top 10
Are you forgetting that Vitali is also fighting young undefeated boxers and dominating them?
What is your deffinition of dominating?
Mine in boxing is a fighter that fits everyone and beats everyone. Wlad hasnt fought everyone has he. Vitali is at least equally as good so how can Wlad be dominating? He isnt. Hes only one of 2 fighters that are hard to seperate apart from Vitali proving himself against Lewis and beating Sanders and not having to grab and lean which to me proves Vitali is the better fighter of the two.
Joe Calzaghe had a long u defeated run but he was only ever called dominant after he had taken out the other threats and proved he was the best in that division.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
There are always questions that arise when considering greatness. Are we pitting greats vs greats or are we looking solely at records and what has been accomplished during their eras or are we doing a mix of the two. Also one HAS to consider the fact that there used to only be 1 belt and now there's a billion of them and it makes it difficult to compare and contrast title holders because you don't fight the exact same competition if you have the WBC belt or IBF belt or WBA belt. To his credit Wladimir did make the WBO a LEGITIMATE heavyweight title based on his performances as it's champion.
This is why Joe Louis is ALWAYS my A#1 Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time. He fought anyone and everyone, he fought quality AND quantity, and he had the longest run as Champion AND he had years of his prime taken away due to World War II (which nobody ever mentions the way they mention Ali's layoff).
Now looking at Wladimir, he's a flawed heavyweight. He has had losses, but everyone (bar Marciano) on the list of Greats has suffered losses. Some shocking like Lewis-Rahman I, some understandable Ali-Frazier I or Tyson-Holyfield, and some were just bad calls Lewis-Holyfield I & II. Wlad's defeats were shocking, but all the more shocking is his ability to reinvent himself as a fighter, paper over the cracks in his game and become the dominant champion AFTER such shocking defeats...I mean the only other guys to get smacked down like Wlad did and bounce back to become even more dominant are Joe Louis (Schmeling I) and Lennox Lewis (Oliver McCall I). Wlad has had a reign as champion longer than everyone but Joe Louis, he's now been in more title fights than Muhammad Ali, he's defended his titles 14 or so times, he has held the IBF, WBO and IBO Heavyweight Championships longer than any other fighter in history, and he has defended those titles more than any other fighter.
He is an all-time great based on his accomplishments during his era, to deny it is to deny history. He can only fight who is in his era, and he has been willing to fight them all. Is Wlad "The Greatest", no and I don't think anyone is making that case, but he IS an All-Time great, there's very little to argue about when considering that just given the stats he has. He fights all the time, he defends his titles, he's undefeated in rematches, he wins by KO/TKO more often than not, what more do you want? Maybe he could fight in a more exciting manner, but shit if you're winning why change something that is working? Nobody asks Hopkins or Mayweather Jr to change their styles.
I'd put Wlad in the top 10
Wlad is a champion in an era that his brother helped to dilute. He hasn't fought the best challengers, he's fought SOME of them. Vitali has fought the others.
Wlad enjoys a luxury virtually nobody else in history has, not only was he able to avoid the "next best guy," that guy has also helped wipe out top competition.
Alphabet defenses are irrelevant. Chris John has defended the "world" featherweight title a thousand times, will he go into history as an all-time great? No.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freedom
Based on what he's done so far, where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
There are 2 ways of looking at 'what he has done so far'
1./ He has dominated the division for the best part of 10 years
2./ He has dominated the worst 10 years of HW in history, his best win is against Sam Peter, would is probably not top 100 all time HW and he has never beaten anybody that at least the top 40 HW of all time would not also have almost certainly beaten.
:-\
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Wlad is a champion in an era that his brother helped to dilute. He hasn't fought the best challengers, he's fought SOME of them. Vitali has fought the others.
Wlad enjoys a luxury virtually nobody else in history has, not only was he able to avoid the "next best guy," that guy has also helped wipe out top competition.
Alphabet defenses are irrelevant. Chris John has defended the "world" featherweight title a thousand times, will he go into history as an all-time great? No.
What luxury is there? Who has Vitali fought that Wlad would lose to? Sure we could bring Sanders up again, but #1 That was a long time ago and #2 Sanders is sadly dead so there's no hope for a rematch and redemption.
JC Gomez, Kevin Johnson, Cris Arreola, Derreck Chisora, Tomaz Adamek, Odlanier Solis, Albert Sosnowski, Shannon Briggs, Manuel Charr
Who in that group beats Wlad if you're so confident of your point?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freedom
Based on what he's done so far, where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
There are 2 ways of looking at 'what he has done so far'
1./ He has dominated the division for the best part of 10 years
2./ He has dominated
the worst 10 years of HW in history, his best win is against Sam Peter, would is probably not top 100 all time HW and he has never beaten anybody that at least the top 40 HW of all time would not also have almost certainly beaten.
:-\
I wouldn't call it that at all. Wlad has fought some very good opponents who will sadly never get the credit they deserve because boxing "fans" won't give them their due because they are spiteful and want to play up how great past champions were and never appreciate the present. Same shit happened with Lennox Lewis if you'll recall
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Wlad is a champion in an era that his brother helped to dilute. He hasn't fought the best challengers, he's fought SOME of them. Vitali has fought the others.
Wlad enjoys a luxury virtually nobody else in history has, not only was he able to avoid the "next best guy," that guy has also helped wipe out top competition.
Alphabet defenses are irrelevant. Chris John has defended the "world" featherweight title a thousand times, will he go into history as an all-time great? No.
What luxury is there? Who has Vitali fought that Wlad would lose to? Sure we could bring Sanders up again, but #1 That was a long time ago and #2 Sanders is sadly dead so there's no hope for a rematch and redemption.
JC Gomez, Kevin Johnson, Cris Arreola, Derreck Chisora, Tomaz Adamek, Odlanier Solis, Albert Sosnowski, Shannon Briggs, Manuel Charr
Who in that group beats Wlad if you're so confident of your point?
Some of those guys have been ranked much higher, and considered much better, than some of Wlad's opponents over the past 5/6 years. That is a fact. Therefore, Wlad would have been expected to face some of them if Vitali wasn't around to do the job for him.
Whether or not you believe Wlad would have beat those guys is irrelevant. If Wlad had never faced Corrie Sanders and I now claimed Sanders would smash him to bits inside two rounds you'd call me a moron.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Were the last ten years really the worst heavyweight era ever in the heavyweight division? I'm not sure that is true. Certainly, I agree that it isn't a good one. I don't think we'll ever see another good one either.
Will David Haye make the Hall of Fame? Is he Wladimir's best opponent?
I have Wladimir in the top 15 and his career isn't over.
The difference with Chris John is that during this era there have been many great featherweights that John hasn't faced. Gamboa, Garcia, Salido, JuanMa, the list goes on. Point is that there have been many other featherweights that many people considered The Man. In Wladimir's era of heavyweights, other than Haye, only his brother is someone that people considered The Man. And in Wladimir's defense, he completely outclassed Haye.
Are Gamboa, Garcia, Salido and JuanMa in a p4p sense equivalent to Povetkin, Chagaev, Ibramigov etc.?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
I actually think we'll get to see Wladimir face Arreola and Chisora at some point. The rest of the guys don't pose any threat, at least subjectively.
For the people who rank Wladimir and Vitali outside the top 25 heavyweights, can you put up a list of 25 heavyweights that you would rank higher?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freedom
Based on what he's done so far, where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
There are 2 ways of looking at 'what he has done so far'
1./ H
e has dominated the division for the best part of 10 years
2./ He has dominated the worst 10 years of HW in history, his best win is against Sam Peter, would is probably not top 100 all time HW and he has never beaten anybody that at least the top 40 HW of all time would not also have almost certainly beaten.
:-\
No! No he hasnt!
Everyone is forgetting that there is another heavyweight champion who Wlad refuses to fight and would also not beat.
How can you dominate if there is another fighter regarded as a genuine world champion and who most feel would beat you?
In fact, put it this way...
If Wlad and Vitali were not brothers but had both been world champions for the last 5 years, would you still think Wlad has dominated?
Would you be annoyed that they have avoided each other? Who would you think wins based on their previous fights like Vitali giving Lewis his hardest fight and beating the man that smashed Wlad and then how vulnerable Wlad looks against punchers.
Would you even be singing Wlads praises?
Do you think Sven Ottke dominated the super middle division?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
I went for 16-25. On achievement on paper, Wlad is much higher, but taking into consideration opponents and the nature of his defeats, I can't put him higher than that
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Do you think Sven Ottke dominated the super middle division?
Chris John and now Sven Ottke. You're comparing Wladimir to these boxers who ACTIVELY avoid testing themselves against the best just because Vitali is around? You're going to drop a fighter out of greatness because he won't fight his brother, but alright I'll play that game with you. George Foreman never fought Earnie Shavers, Mike Tyson never fought: Riddick Bowe, Tommy Morrison, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, or Ray Mercer. Evander Holyfield never fought Andrew Golota or Donovan Ruddock or Tommy Morrison, Lennox Lewis never fought: Wlad, John Ruiz, or Chris Byrd. Roy Jones Jr never fought: Eubank, Benn, McClellan, Collins, Ottke, Michalzswski. Shane Mosley never fought Trinidad. Joe Frazier never fought Norton or Lyle. Are those fighters any less great because there's a name or two that's not on their records?
Wlad and Vitali are brothers, they won't fight each other we never expected JMM and Rafael to fight each other or the Quarry brothers or anyone else. If Vitali wasn't Wlad's brother they WOULD fight of course, but this idea that brothers ruling a division makes it "easier" is bullshit. 1 of them is in the ring at a time, they both have won consistently and decisively.
I think with certain posters Wlad will never be accepted as great because they have a huge chip on their shoulder either about his fighting style or his brother being a great fighter too.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Do you think Sven Ottke dominated the super middle division?
Chris John and now Sven Ottke. You're comparing Wladimir to these boxers who ACTIVELY avoid testing themselves against the best just because Vitali is around? You're going to drop a fighter out of greatness because he won't fight his brother, but alright I'll play that game with you. George Foreman never fought Earnie Shavers, Mike Tyson never fought: Riddick Bowe, Tommy Morrison, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, or Ray Mercer. Evander Holyfield never fought Andrew Golota or Donovan Ruddock or Tommy Morrison, Lennox Lewis never fought: Wlad, John Ruiz, or Chris Byrd. Roy Jones Jr never fought: Eubank, Benn, McClellan, Collins, Ottke, Michalzswski. Shane Mosley never fought Trinidad. Joe Frazier never fought Norton or Lyle. Are those fighters any less great because there's a name or two that's not on their records?
Wlad and Vitali are brothers, they won't fight each other we never expected JMM and Rafael to fight each other or the Quarry brothers or anyone else. If Vitali wasn't Wlad's brother they WOULD fight of course, but this idea that brothers ruling a division makes it "easier" is bullshit. 1 of them is in the ring at a time, they both have won consistently and decisively.
I think with certain posters Wlad will never be accepted as great because they have a huge chip on their shoulder either about his fighting style or his brother being a great fighter too.
Wlad has an element of greatness, depending on how low your expectations are for a great fighter;D
My whole point is that at no point in Wladamirs career has he been dominant. You know that as well.
Like I said. What would your opinion on Wlads standing be if Vitali wasnt his brother but he was still a fellow title holder for the past 5 years and one that beat someone who had just smashed Wlad to bits.
It would be exactly the same as someone giving massive credit to Ottke. Calzaghe would have the same criticisms if he hadnt puncuated his super middle reign, unifying against Lacy and Kessler to become the undisputed champ and having beaten the other top fighters.
George Foreman was never dominant! He only made 2 defences!
Your amike Tyson point is an absolute joke because Mike epitomised dominance during his reign. Yes he got beat but before that he was the most dominant fighter on the planet, beating everyone that was anyone in the heavyweight division, winning and defending all 3 belts 7 times.
Holyfield or Lewis id never have said were ever dominating the division because iv said it before, they got beat or avoided fighters. People always call for another Tyson because he truly ruled the division and was THE one and only champ.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Your amike Tyson point is an absolute joke because Mike epitomised dominance during his reign.
Not just beaten by Buster Douglas, SCHOOLED for 10 rounds by Buster Douglas. It's 1 thing to get caught hard and KO'd it's quite another to just get absolutely dominated. And Buster never made 1 successful title defense....NOT....A......ONE.
But you just keep fighting the truth bud
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Lyle, come back to me when Wlad has made 6 successfull defences of all 3 belts and there is no other fighter active that anyone thinks would beat him.
Get real!
"Wlad is the greatest heavy out there right now"
What about Vitali?
"He doesnt count"
:p
