James Toney is back! Toney/Lebedev live!

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Actually it completely does add up, the weight he lost was clearly as much muscle as fat(if he managed to shed any). The fact that he may have been that size or smaller at one point is moot considering he has spent the last 8 or 9 years well above this weight.
He looked absolutely useless from the very opening moments of the fight , and has shown steady decline for many years now. It was very clear he wasn't going to be generating any power at all and even his punch resistance looked to have seriously waned. He could still slip punches on muscle memory and due to Lebedevs being fairly average, thats about it. Just because there has been a slew of guys operating on a high level into their forties lately doesn't take away what it means for most people, especially those who have never taken care of their body in the first place and have serious medical issues as a result of concussions etc.
There was also no real precident of a guy dropping that much weight at his age and not being a complete shell.

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Valid points and I agree, but you saw him in those early rounds shaking his knee like a boxer doesn't do. It was like Tyson/Williams. And yet in this instance, Toney worked his way through. My mind is changing completely. If Toney was really injured, then he did alright.

We have no idea what the damage is and Toney is a true warrior unlike Hopkins. He has no quit in him. I was rude in condemning Toney earlier, but it was understandable. I will stall in those judgements though until I know of the true extent of Toney's injury.

I think the injury explains everything though. He was never supposed to be this bad

Miles,

Toney is 43. Toney NEVER took care of his body. Toney did drop around 150 pounds way too fast. Do I have to draw you a sketch? I said it a while ago when we were talking about this fight, Toney would eat a beating. The first boxers lose are reflexes, now if you never take care of business before being a senior boxer (ie over 35-36) this dramatically hurts. Look ar RJJ, even by taking a proud care of his body, the man now is the shell of the one he once was, sometimes with a few flashes from the past but that's about. Now what do you imagine about a fatty who did burn 150 pounds in a year? That's a fuck** load to lose for a guy who,s 43 and therefore should be retired a while ago. There is no surprises here, no excuses to find. It's just the normal course of history.

I think cognitive dissonance explains everything personally. DE NILE aint just a river in Egypt you know;D

I imagine there will be a anti-Lebedev backlash because he has now punished two American former stars. Lebedev isn't shite. That's ridiculous. He isn't great but he's not shite. Seriously, I consider Marco Huck to be a legitimate fighter and Lebedev gave him a run for his money. Go watch that fight before juding him. No one said Danny Green was shite and Danny Green has done less than Lebedev. My theory is people hate Lebedev because he probably has the ugliest face in boxing.

So nobody saw James Toney hurt his leg early on and shake it about a number of times? Nobody heard him mention it after the fight and then walk off?

I admit that he lost and lost horribly. My comments are there in this thread. I was dismayed.

But I have also questioned why he looked so bad and in truth Toney has never looked even remotely that shot ever before.

You can have a scrap with your younger brother and you don't miss him by a meter. Toney was doing that all night and falling over anytime he was pushed back.

There was clearly something wrong with him. It wasn't just age.

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Originally Posted by miles

The leg slip was obvious, we all saw it. Toney hurt himself, I commented on it. Now if he couldn't pivot properly then that takes away half of your gameplan. That has to have been a factor in Toney's performance.

I just cannot buy that he was simply THAT shot. This is James Toney! Since when does Toney not land ANY meangingful punches?

It doesn't add up. Sure he can lose, but he can land a few on the way to losing a decision. It just doesn't add up.

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I love Toney as a boxer and a character outside the ring. But he's shot. I didn't even watch the fight knowing that this would likely be the outcome.

I think I might look up an old Toney fight circa early 90s to remember him as the dominant fighter he once was.

Toney could have had 6 bloody legs it still would count for nothing , Jesus the guy is shot , great fighter in his day ,but his day is long gone , turn the lights out on your career please James.

Miles, I'm sorry to say but it's time to face it: Toney is shot with or without the injury. Whether its "that" shot or not is missing the point. He's done as a competitive boxer.

:'( :-[ :grouphug: :flowers: :bawling:

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Miles, I'm sorry to say but it's time to face it: Toney is shot with or without the injury. Whether its "that" shot or not is missing the point. He's done as a competitive boxer.

:'( :-[ :grouphug: :flowers: :bawling:

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I said it earlier in the thread too. I said Toney was shot, but if injured then it clearly played a part. We have never seen him look like this. Toney can handle HW's and yet RJJ can win rounds against this guy and Toney can't? I don't buy it.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I imagine there will be a anti-Lebedev backlash because he has now punished two American former stars. Lebedev isn't shite. That's ridiculous. He isn't great but he's not shite. Seriously, I consider Marco Huck to be a legitimate fighter and Lebedev gave him a run for his money. Go watch that fight before juding him. No one said Danny Green was shite and Danny Green has done less than Lebedev. My theory is people hate Lebedev because he probably has the ugliest face in boxing.

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I don't "hate" Lebedev, but what's up with fighting washed up, old American fighters? And then after the fights, crying and/or acting like you just beat them in their primes, WTF?

I just don't get it, or why Russian boxing fans would have any interest at all in watching this boring shit.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Miles, I'm sorry to say but it's time to face it: Toney is shot with or without the injury. Whether its "that" shot or not is missing the point. He's done as a competitive boxer.

:'( :-[ :grouphug: :flowers: :bawling:

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I said it earlier in the thread too. I said Toney was shot, but if injured then it clearly played a part. We have never seen him look like this. Toney can handle HW's and yet RJJ can win rounds against this guy and Toney can't? I don't buy it.

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And I still don't buy it. Toney clearly fucked himself up and pride made him carry on.

Even with a good leg he would have lost. But he would have landed a few and made the fight more fun. The fight was dead early on.

The thing is even if he did hurt his leg legit , it was only because he threw a wild punch , when he was out of position , and his timing and coordination was diabolical,the guy just cant move no footwork , surely Miles even you as a huge Toney fan cant wish to see him in the ring again taking a beating:-\. Really really hopes he calls it a day , but i doubt he will:vd:.

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I imagine there will be a anti-Lebedev backlash because he has now punished two American former stars. Lebedev isn't shite. That's ridiculous. He isn't great but he's not shite. Seriously, I consider Marco Huck to be a legitimate fighter and Lebedev gave him a run for his money. Go watch that fight before juding him. No one said Danny Green was shite and Danny Green has done less than Lebedev. My theory is people hate Lebedev because he probably has the ugliest face in boxing.

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I don't "hate" Lebedev, but what's up with fighting washed up, old American fighters? And then after the fights, crying and/or acting like you just beat them in their primes, WTF?

I just don't get it, or why Russian boxing fans would have any interest at all in watching this boring shit.

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Lebedev is a decent fighter. Unfortunately guys line up to fight names like Toney and RJJ past their primes, particularly in a no name-no glamour division like cruisers. There are not a lot of dream match ups in that division at present. The last thing I want to do is defend fights like this one though, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Gocougars3

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I imagine there will be a anti-Lebedev backlash because he has now punished two American former stars. Lebedev isn't shite. That's ridiculous. He isn't great but he's not shite. Seriously, I consider Marco Huck to be a legitimate fighter and Lebedev gave him a run for his money. Go watch that fight before juding him. No one said Danny Green was shite and Danny Green has done less than Lebedev. My theory is people hate Lebedev because he probably has the ugliest face in boxing.

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I don't "hate" Lebedev, but what's up with fighting washed up, old American fighters? And then after the fights, crying and/or acting like you just beat them in their primes, WTF?

I just don't get it, or why Russian boxing fans would have any interest at all in watching this boring shit.

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Lebedev is a decent fighter. Unfortunately guys line up to fight names like Toney and RJJ past their primes, particularly in a no name-no glamour division like cruisers. There are not a lot of dream match ups in that division at present. The last thing I want to do is defend fights like this one though, that's for sure.

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There are a few good match-ups though that just haven't been made yet.

Huck v. Lebedev rematch
Huck v. Cunningham rematch
Winner of Wlod v. Green versus any of the above.
Tarver versus any of the above.

Well sad to hear he lost. Luckily for me I thought the fight was tomorrow and so didn't bet yet. Every cloud..

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Gocougars3

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I imagine there will be a anti-Lebedev backlash because he has now punished two American former stars. Lebedev isn't shite. That's ridiculous. He isn't great but he's not shite. Seriously, I consider Marco Huck to be a legitimate fighter and Lebedev gave him a run for his money. Go watch that fight before juding him. No one said Danny Green was shite and Danny Green has done less than Lebedev. My theory is people hate Lebedev because he probably has the ugliest face in boxing.

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I don't "hate" Lebedev, but what's up with fighting washed up, old American fighters? And then after the fights, crying and/or acting like you just beat them in their primes, WTF?

I just don't get it, or why Russian boxing fans would have any interest at all in watching this boring shit.

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Lebedev is a decent fighter. Unfortunately guys line up to fight names like Toney and RJJ past their primes, particularly in a no name-no glamour division like cruisers. There are not a lot of dream match ups in that division at present. The last thing I want to do is defend fights like this one though, that's for sure.

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There are a few good match-ups though that just haven't been made yet.

Huck v. Lebedev rematch
Huck v. Cunningham rematch
Winner of Wlod v. Green versus any of the above.
Tarver versus any of the above.

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No Kayode in there? I don't blame you, he hasn't been impressive.

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Originally Posted by miles

So nobody saw James Toney hurt his leg early on and shake it about a number of times? Nobody heard him mention it after the fight and then walk off?

I admit that he lost and lost horribly. My comments are there in this thread. I was dismayed.

But I have also questioned why he looked so bad and in truth Toney has never looked even remotely that shot ever before.

You can have a scrap with your younger brother and you don't miss him by a meter. Toney was doing that all night and falling over anytime he was pushed back.

There was clearly something wrong with him. It wasn't just age.

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I didn't think that Toney was really and seriously injured at the leg. I didn't see him limp beside the very end of the fight and the twist seemed to be only the result of a bad move. Toney was not only slow on feet but also on hands, his defense wasnt what once it was and the timing has never been there. He's just too old and weight drained and his reflexes are sadly gone too. That's all there is to say about it and I am pretty sure that ther won't be ay meical record to say that his leg was seriously injured.

Well it's a new day and what is done is done. Toney needs to retire. You can't look that bad and expect to carry on injury or no injury. Nobody gets better in their 40's and Toney is father christmas old.

It was almost a shut out against someone who in all honesty isn't particularly good.

The injury is clearly as real as Hopkins injury. Look at the post fight presser, Toney can barely walk. He wasn't just shot, he was injured! It was Tyson/Williams except that there is no quit in James Toney.

Toney looked like crap mainly because he couldn't do anything with a leg being buggered up. He is past his best and should probably retire, but this fight is not a proper indicator of just how gone James Toney is.

Shame for the injury though. I guess its karma for talking bad about Hopkins injury. But who knows how he'd have looked if it hadn't happened, his body probably isn't used to being so light and his joints are probably still adjusting to it all.

Give him rehab he'll have one more fight if he comes in at 199 again and wins he may have a shot at cruiserweight.

Sad cause he had an opponent he probably could have beaten without the injury but he'll get no rematch.


Then again he also had McGirt training him and that's a curse in itself these days.

best of luck to him though, sucks he finally dedicated himself and got hurt.

The injury is frustrating. Toney didn't look particularly hot in the first round prior to the two drunken stumbles in the second, but it's impossible to gauge whether what happened afterwards was down to injury or just being shot beyond all measure.

But I have never seen someone lose ALL of their skills in a single fight though. Toney was one dimensional and had only one rather lacklustre strategy which was to hold back and try to time the lead right.

Since when has James Toney ever become that limited? He was even ducking into Lebedev's punches towards the end.

But for sure, the skills haven't gone in a single fight. Toney/Peter 2 was the other big indicator and seemingly a leg injury was a contributing factor for that one.

Injury or no injury there is no escaping the fact that Toney is in his mid 40's.

Look at Toney here, barely able to walk at the post fight conference. Injured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2pn1O-mFUk

This should be exciting.

Good stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vgzWPQelCw&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vgzWPQelCw&feature=related

Bunce is full of shit! If he was sat next to you at a bar and started talking boxing like that, youd grab your glass turn away and walk to a table to sit and drink on your own rather than listen to the pissed twat at the bar!

I just watch the replay of the fight and I do thonk it would have been a whole different fight had Toney not got injured. He would have been rusty anyway and I reckon come the 4th or 5 th round he would have been getting in to his stride, much like the Jirov fight. Even the Holyfield fight, Toney was getting bullied in the first few rounds until he found a rythm. Its such a shame because it all sounds like bullshit and sour grapes but if he can keep himself in good shape now and get a warm up and then a contender I could see himself giving a far better acount of himself. It was a combination of being so inactive for so long and fighting a southpaw, having to reach round with the right.