Re: Joe Calzaghe: Andre Ward is good but beatable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LobowolfXXX
I'm not saying they have to be all-time greats, but most of the people Calzaghe defended the title against weren't top-ten in the weight class. In the last 2 1/2 years, he stepped up his level of competition dramatically, but in the first 7+ years, his defenses weren't remotely against the best 168-pounders. They just WEREN'T. Don't extrapolate anything from that other what it is, or what his legacy would have been if he fought X, Y, or Z. I'm just stating a plain, verifiable, almost indisputable fact. For over 7 years, the top SMWs were passed over as Calzaghe defended mostly against 2nd and 3rd tier guys. I'm not talking about P4P greats; I'm just talking about the top 168-pounders of that era.
You are totally wrong.
Brewer, Mitchell, Reid and Woodhall were all top 10 Ring ranked during this period (see links at bottom).
And for what it's worth - Tocker Pudwill replaced Thomas Tate (top 10 rated) who pulled out two weeks before the fight. And for what it's worth - Cazlaghe stopped Glenn Catley (top 10 rated) in the amateurs.
So as you can see - it's a plain, verifiable, almost indisputable fact that Calzaghe WAS NOT passing over all the top supermiddles.
The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: Super Middleweight--1990s - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia
The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: Super Middleweight--2000s - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia
Re: Joe Calzaghe: Andre Ward is good but beatable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LobowolfXXX
Hopkins, as 160-pound champion, has a better resume than Calzaghe as 168-pound champion.. The "far worse resume" bit is nonsense.
Until he started beating up the little guys, i.e his first 18 or so defences, who did he fight that was higher rated/revered than Kessler or Lacy as 2 examples? Go to Boxrec and look at that list of bums and tell me there any better than the people JC fought. B-Hop and RJJ will go down as ATGs, but their
records (there you go Eric you koont ;D ) during their prime yeaers are filled with fighters at a very similar level to those on JC's record. I would say that is pretty undisputable!
I do find it funny how Felix Trinidad is considered a little guy now since he lost the fight. Yet that wasn't the case going into the Hopkins fight. Hell he was actually favored to beat Hopkins. But I see the need to bad mouth Hopkins resume....record is so great he must be referred as a little guy
Trinidad was favourite, becuase Hopkins hadn't fought anybody!! Nobody knew what would happen when he foguht a truly world class fighter.
Credit to him, he was awesome and took Tito apart, but this ins't about how good he is/was, it's about the fact that his record at MW through his reign is littered with names comparable with those on Calzaghe's record. Even you can't try and make a case that Hopkins' opposition was anything other than average prior to Tito?
Re: Joe Calzaghe: Andre Ward is good but beatable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LobowolfXXX
I'm not saying they have to be all-time greats, but most of the people Calzaghe defended the title against weren't top-ten in the weight class. In the last 2 1/2 years, he stepped up his level of competition dramatically, but in the first 7+ years, his defenses weren't remotely against the best 168-pounders. They just WEREN'T. Don't extrapolate anything from that other what it is, or what his legacy would have been if he fought X, Y, or Z. I'm just stating a plain, verifiable, almost indisputable fact. For over 7 years, the top SMWs were passed over as Calzaghe defended mostly against 2nd and 3rd tier guys. I'm not talking about P4P greats; I'm just talking about the top 168-pounders of that era.
You are totally
wrong.
Brewer, Mitchell, Reid and Woodhall were all top 10 Ring ranked during this period (see links at bottom).
And for what it's worth - Tocker Pudwill replaced Thomas Tate (top 10 rated) who pulled out two weeks before the fight. And for what it's worth - Cazlaghe stopped Glenn Catley (top 10 rated) in the amateurs.
So as you can see - it's a plain, verifiable, almost indisputable fact that Calzaghe WAS NOT passing over all the top supermiddles.
The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: Super Middleweight--1990s - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia
The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: Super Middleweight--2000s - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia
It's a bit amusing that you'd say in caps that I'm WRONG when you make a nice post that proves my point. Let's break it down a bit...I'll go slow and highlight the operative words:
most of the people Calzaghe defended the title against weren't top-ten in the weight class.
Prior to the Lacy fight, Calzaghe had the title for about 8 1/2 years. In that time, he defended it SEVENTEEN times, and yes, you have correctly identified the FOUR challengers in the Ring Top-10 annual rankings.
Re: Joe Calzaghe: Andre Ward is good but beatable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LobowolfXXX
Hopkins, as 160-pound champion, has a better resume than Calzaghe as 168-pound champion.. The "far worse resume" bit is nonsense.
Until he started beating up the little guys, i.e his first 18 or so defences, who did he fight that was higher rated/revered than Kessler or Lacy as 2 examples? Go to Boxrec and look at that list of bums and tell me there any better than the people JC fought. B-Hop and RJJ will go down as ATGs, but their
records (there you go Eric you koont ;D ) during their prime yeaers are filled with fighters at a very similar level to those on JC's record. I would say that is pretty undisputable!
I do find it funny how Felix Trinidad is considered a little guy now since he lost the fight. Yet that wasn't the case going into the Hopkins fight. Hell he was actually favored to beat Hopkins. But I see the need to bad mouth Hopkins resume....record is so great he must be referred as a little guy
Trinidad was favourite, becuase Hopkins hadn't fought anybody!! Nobody knew what would happen when he foguht a truly world class fighter.
Credit to him, he was awesome and took Tito apart, but this ins't about how good he is/was, it's about the fact that his record at MW through his reign is littered with names comparable with those on Calzaghe's record. Even you can't try and make a case that Hopkins' opposition was anything other than average prior to Tito?
Hopkins's list of opponents may be "comparable," but it's clearly better. Most of Hopkins's defenses were against legitimate top-10 contenders. Most of Calzaghe's were not.
Re: Joe Calzaghe: Andre Ward is good but beatable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LobowolfXXX
Hopkins, as 160-pound champion, has a better resume than Calzaghe as 168-pound champion.. The "far worse resume" bit is nonsense.
Until he started beating up the little guys, i.e his first 18 or so defences, who did he fight that was higher rated/revered than Kessler or Lacy as 2 examples? Go to Boxrec and look at that list of bums and tell me there any better than the people JC fought. B-Hop and RJJ will go down as ATGs, but their
records (there you go Eric you koont ;D ) during their prime yeaers are filled with fighters at a very similar level to those on JC's record. I would say that is pretty undisputable!
I do find it funny how Felix Trinidad is considered a little guy now since he lost the fight. Yet that wasn't the case going into the Hopkins fight. Hell he was actually favored to beat Hopkins. But I see the need to bad mouth Hopkins resume....record is so great he must be referred as a little guy
Trinidad was favourite, becuase Hopkins hadn't fought anybody!! Nobody knew what would happen when he foguht a truly world class fighter.
Credit to him, he was awesome and took Tito apart, but this ins't about how good he is/was, it's about the fact that his record at MW through his reign is littered with names comparable with those on Calzaghe's record. Even you can't try and make a case that Hopkins' opposition was anything other than average prior to Tito?
After becoming IBF champion and before he faced Trinidad, I see only 3 names he shouldn't have faced. Steve Frank, Simon Brown and William James. Frank was garbage. Simon was ancient. And James was unworthy. Other than that his opposition isn't outstanding but it surely ain't terrible
