Hmmmm, K2, the Klitschko brothers' promotion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onetime
The Nazis and Soviet Union fought AGAINST each other in WWII.
The Klitschkos were born into the Soviet Union; Nazis are from Germany.
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Hmmmm, K2, the Klitschko brothers' promotion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onetime
The Nazis and Soviet Union fought AGAINST each other in WWII.
The Klitschkos were born into the Soviet Union; Nazis are from Germany.
Tyson supports republicans?!
He can go f*<k himself then...
http://i25.tinypic.com/r7oi83.jpg
This threads probably been damaged beyond repair but if anyone wants to get it back on track feel free.
Yet again, a load of rubbish imhoQuote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180
All this talk on floyd avoiding and will never be an all time great..what are you talking about?!
He already is!
Oscar used to dictate the same stuff!
"The guys in the 80s, the guys in the 80s etc..Get over it!!
Its 2013 and the best fighters fight twice a year!
I hate the fact floyd, ward, froch fight twice a year and i wish they could fight 4-5 times a year but it seems to take that long in this day and age to build a fight like that and more money is involved.
If floyd fought 4 times a year knowing the way he trains and performs in the ring who in this era will beat him at 147?
If floyd, marquez or even manny were fighting in the 80s they would be fighying 15 rounds and fighting more often but whos to say if that would have a positive/negative effect on them.
Please bradlee, tell us all who in this era is perfect in your honest opinion and has fought every single fighter in their prime whilst taking a paycut and not having a day in where the fight is, the gloves, the weight, everything!
Who exactly is this person that measures up to all these qualities that you have stated.?
Just beware, whatever boxer you say, someone will pick holes because guess what..no one is perfect but with undefeated record that sometimes helps towards assessing the criteria.
You haven't?Quote:
Originally Posted by OnetimeYou are one pathetic Nazi have you ever done the Nazi salute during a K2 fight? You win Floyd sucks there you happy?Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou're one dumb bastardQuote:
Originally Posted by OnetimeYes it is because you blow K2 while doing it, like I said you are a hypocrite now I don't know the reason for your hypocrisy but I've seen your political views which are right wing so I can guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou've yet to produce 1 single quote of mine to back up your claims. I've called Floyd a great like 80 times in this one thread alone. All I've said in this thread is that Floyd hasn't fought and won't fight someone like Duran.....reason being is that the ONLY fighter close to Duran in Floyd's era has been Floyd and he can't very well fight himself can he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Onetime
That "racist" enough for you? :vd:
Yeah, to me it's all "golden age"-biased nonsense. It drives me nuts when guys come on here and accuse Floyd of ducking and dodging everyone. According to these people, Floyd never fought a real fighter in his life. Everyone was either overrated, passed their prime, too small, too big, too slow, ect ect. "If only they never got fucked by the ref", "If only he had thrown more punches", yadda yadda. There's always some excuse.
If you think Floyd has ducked and dodged opponents, name them and tell us when they should have fought? Are there people out there who SERIOUSLY believe Floyd should have fought Margarito instead of De La Hoya? And do you SERIOUSLY believe that any other champion, past or present, wouldn't have done the same?
Leave it now and stick to the script like memphis/andre said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseYou haven't?Quote:
Originally Posted by OnetimeYou are one pathetic Nazi have you ever done the Nazi salute during a K2 fight? You win Floyd sucks there you happy?Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou're one dumb bastardQuote:
Originally Posted by OnetimeYes it is because you blow K2 while doing it, like I said you are a hypocrite now I don't know the reason for your hypocrisy but I've seen your political views which are right wing so I can guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou've yet to produce 1 single quote of mine to back up your claims. I've called Floyd a great like 80 times in this one thread alone. All I've said in this thread is that Floyd hasn't fought and won't fight someone like Duran.....reason being is that the ONLY fighter close to Duran in Floyd's era has been Floyd and he can't very well fight himself can he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Onetime
That "racist" enough for you? :vd:
So, if one gave a Nazi salute to a Russian, he would be "one pathetic Nazi."Quote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180Hmmmm, K2, the Klitschko brothers' promotion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onetime
The Nazis and Soviet Union fought AGAINST each other in WWII.
The Klitschkos were born into the Soviet Union; Nazis are from Germany.
You have to think these things through.
Ok baby modQuote:
Originally Posted by impLeave it now and stick to the script like memphis/andre said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseYou haven't?Quote:
Originally Posted by OnetimeYou are one pathetic Nazi have you ever done the Nazi salute during a K2 fight? You win Floyd sucks there you happy?Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou're one dumb bastardQuote:
Originally Posted by OnetimeYes it is because you blow K2 while doing it, like I said you are a hypocrite now I don't know the reason for your hypocrisy but I've seen your political views which are right wing so I can guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou've yet to produce 1 single quote of mine to back up your claims. I've called Floyd a great like 80 times in this one thread alone. All I've said in this thread is that Floyd hasn't fought and won't fight someone like Duran.....reason being is that the ONLY fighter close to Duran in Floyd's era has been Floyd and he can't very well fight himself can he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Onetime
That "racist" enough for you? :vd:
There is no need to make up lies. It wasn't De La Hoya he fought in place of Margarito. It was Carlos Baldomir. Big difference in threat level there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
So true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Floyd has flaws. Of course he does.
Floyd doesnt throw as much combinations as i would like to see like he did in the "good old days" or when he fought ortiz.
Floyd has a tendancy to play it so safe in some of the late rounds (when he knows hes winning) he possibly could engage more but doesnt and does keep his distance for longer than is necessary.
But you know what, hes the boxer and hes the one winning whether he wants to engage or not, that isnt his style.
Floyd probably gets away with using his elbow alot more than he should but that seems to part of his defence and the refs do warn him but i suppose not enough in some peoples minds.
I just want to know who is this ideal boxer today that ticks all the boxes that floydhasnt done.
Im sure the fact that he had a belt, was offered a few million more and wasnt with top rank had nothing to do with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseOk baby modQuote:
Originally Posted by impLeave it now and stick to the script like memphis/andre said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseYou haven't?Quote:
Originally Posted by OnetimeYou are one pathetic Nazi have you ever done the Nazi salute during a K2 fight? You win Floyd sucks there you happy?Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou're one dumb bastardQuote:
Originally Posted by OnetimeYes it is because you blow K2 while doing it, like I said you are a hypocrite now I don't know the reason for your hypocrisy but I've seen your political views which are right wing so I can guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou've yet to produce 1 single quote of mine to back up your claims. I've called Floyd a great like 80 times in this one thread alone. All I've said in this thread is that Floyd hasn't fought and won't fight someone like Duran.....reason being is that the ONLY fighter close to Duran in Floyd's era has been Floyd and he can't very well fight himself can he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Onetime
That "racist" enough for you? :vd:
There is no need to make up lies. It wasn't De La Hoya he fought in place of Margarito. It was Carlos Baldomir. Big difference in threat level there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
So your putting margarito up there now are we?
Margarito beats martinez earlier on in his career, beats cotto and he gets exposed for one of the worst crimes in boxing and has altered other boxers lives with deceit and you choose him out of everyone?...pleaase.
What has margarito actually achieved after the plaster being found out in the mosley fight...im waiting..
Come on vd,
Enlighten us.
Or are you browsing around other websites for an answer?
.
Regardless of how you or anyone else feel about Baldomir as a fighter, he was the #1 of the WW division at the time after upsetting Zab. He was the champion. Margarito had the lightly-regarded WBO WW strap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Did anyone believe Baldomir was going to beat Floyd? I doubt it. But he was, at that time, the #1 in the division and presented Floyd with more reward than a fight with Margarito would have.
And of course Margarito was dethrowned by Paul Williams shortly after, making a Marg/Floyd showdown irrelelvant
Stop trying to change the subject. Cuz those incidents played no part during that time period. The bottom line is a simple one. Margarito is/was and always had been a better fighter than Carlos Baldomir. Find me someone who truly believes otherwise and you found yourself a true moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by impIm sure the fact that he had a belt, was offered a few million more and wasnt with top rank had nothing to do with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseOk baby modQuote:
Originally Posted by impLeave it now and stick to the script like memphis/andre said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseYou haven't?Quote:
Originally Posted by OnetimeYou are one pathetic Nazi have you ever done the Nazi salute during a K2 fight? You win Floyd sucks there you happy?Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou're one dumb bastardQuote:
Originally Posted by OnetimeYes it is because you blow K2 while doing it, like I said you are a hypocrite now I don't know the reason for your hypocrisy but I've seen your political views which are right wing so I can guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou've yet to produce 1 single quote of mine to back up your claims. I've called Floyd a great like 80 times in this one thread alone. All I've said in this thread is that Floyd hasn't fought and won't fight someone like Duran.....reason being is that the ONLY fighter close to Duran in Floyd's era has been Floyd and he can't very well fight himself can he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Onetime
That "racist" enough for you? :vd:
There is no need to make up lies. It wasn't De La Hoya he fought in place of Margarito. It was Carlos Baldomir. Big difference in threat level there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
So your putting margarito up there now are we?
Margarito beats martinez earlier on in his career, beats cotto and he gets exposed for one of the worst crimes in boxing and has altered other boxers lives with deceit and you choose him out of everyone?...pleaase.
What has margarito actually achieved after the plaster being found out in the mosley fight...im waiting..
With or without the plaster.
Margarito had been looking for him since 2006. The fight was there to be made. Him and Arum were still on speaking terms. He fights Zab Judah instead. The same Zab Judah who had just lost to Carlos Baldomir. How the fuck can anybody defend that selection?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerRegardless of how you or anyone else feel about Baldomir as a fighter, he was the #1 of the WW division at the time after upsetting Zab. He was the champion. Margarito had the lightly-regarded WBO WW strap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Did anyone believe Baldomir was going to beat Floyd? I doubt it. But he was, at that time, the #1 in the division and presented Floyd with more reward than a fight with Margarito would have.
And of course Margarito was dethrowned by Paul Williams shortly after, making a Marg/Floyd showdown irrelelvant
The key here is to not use revisionist history, before the Mosley fight nobody knew or even thought to ask if Margarito had loaded his gloves. He had just beaten Miguel Cotto who was undefeated and looking for a shot at Floyd just as much as anyone else at 147 in that time period.
Floyd IS a great fighter, but there are questions about why he chose to fight who he did when he did and at the weight class he did. And those questions are there for ANY fighter but more especially one that considerers themselves great.
Ricky Hatton after his debacle of a performance vs Collazo at 147 showed he couldn't handle the weight
JMM after extremely tough fights with Juan Diaz and Joel Casamayor at 135 and Floyd still decided to fight him at 142
Those make me question him...prudent moves, but they allow for "what if's" to be asked. What if he fights Hatton at 140? JMM at 142 is erroneous because Floyd couldn't make 135 again and if he did he'd either keel over and die from the weight loss or just massacre JMM.
Yet somehow you think fighting twice a year produces a better, more skillful fighter than someone who fights 5 fights per year. A fighter gets good by fighting a lot, son...Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
I agree. Floyd is a great fighter. Never said otherwise. I actually like Floyd. Well I did before I found out he loves fags. But anyway him being great doesn't change the fact that he hasn't challenged himself the way he should of. It's not hating on him. It's simple criticism. Valid criticism. But some people are taking that to mean that he fucking sucks. Muthafukas are just to damn sensitive hereQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
It never stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
So why not tell us who fits this imaginary criteria then?
Violent demise seems to think margarito fits this bill so who else is not guilty of all the things and "what ifs" floyd has done?
Floyd seems to have just plodded along through the amateurs, and got lucky through the pros to get to this point through careful cherry picking and faced no challenges and cant carry durans jockstrap.
Floyd has flaws. We know this.
And we know you respect his skills. We all do.
But
What boxer is clear of any criticism?
Read my whole post twinkle,Quote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180Yet somehow you think fighting twice a year produces a better, more skillful fighter than someone who fights 5 fights per year. A fighter gets good by fighting a lot, son...Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
Dont cherry pick
You going to answer my question yet?
And from your eyes, Floyd was a man among boys in the amateurs. Whatever losses he had he was robbed in. Could of challenged for a title in his pro debut if he wanted to. Became champion at 130 and cleaned out the division. Cleaned out 135 and 140 too. Took on the top dogs at 147 and beat them all. Went to 154 and cleaned it out too. Would of clean out 160 if he wanted too. But he considers Sergio Martinez a friend. And being the swell guy he is he would never fight his friend. Should be in the HOF as an active fighter. He's that great. Him saying he is better than Sugar Ray is true. Cuz he really is. He beat him. I know he did. The haters don't realize that with all the money Floyd has, he has 2 time machines. He probably even got 3. He's gone back in time and beat all the past greats. And he's done it more than once too. That's the type of shit Floyd does in his spare time. And he still gets hated on. He could win every title on his way to heavyweight if he wanted to. He doesn't do it cuz he doesn't wanna hog up every title. He wants other fighters to be champion too. That's the type of great guy Floyd is. If he wanted to be he could be heavyweight champion. Everybody knows Floyd vs Wlad is a 50-50 fight. Yet everybody still hates on him. Never lost a round in his life. Never ducked anyone. Did time For something he didn't do. Gives out sandwiches to the homeless. And it's still not enough. Everybody always wants to hate on this saint of a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by impIt never stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
So why not tell us who fits this imaginary criteria then?
Violent demise seems to think margarito fits this bill so who else is not guilty of all the things and "what ifs" floyd has done?
Floyd seems to have just plodded along through the amateurs, and got lucky through the pros to get to this point through careful cherry picking and faced no challenges and cant carry durans jockstrap.
What boxer is clear of any criticism?
No no no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseAnd from your eyes, Floyd was a man among boys in the amateurs. Whatever losses he had he was robbed in. Could of challenged for a title in his pro debut if he wanted to. Became champion at 130 and cleaned out the division. Cleaned out 135 and 140 too. Took on the top dogs at 147 and beat them all. Went to 154 and cleaned it out too. Would of clean out 160 if he wanted too. But he considers Sergio Martinez a friend. And being the swell guy he is he would never fight his friend. Should be in the HOF as an active fighter. He's that great. Him saying he is better than Sugar Ray is true. Cuz he really is. He beat him. I know he did. The haters don't realize that with all the money Floyd has, he has 2 time machines. He probably even got 3. He's gone back in time and beat all the past greats. And he's done it more than once too. That's the type of shit Floyd does in his spare time. And he still gets hated on. He could win every title on his way to heavyweight if he wanted to. He doesn't do it cuz he doesn't wanna hog up every title. He wants other fighters to be champion too. That's the type of great guy Floyd is. If he wanted to be he could be heavyweight champion. Everybody knows Floyd vs Wlad is a 50-50 fight. Yet everybody still hates on him. Never lost a round in his life. Never ducked anyone. Did time For something he didn't do. Gives out sandwiches to the homeless. And it's still not enough. Everybody always wants to hate on this saint of a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by impIt never stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
So why not tell us who fits this imaginary criteria then?
Violent demise seems to think margarito fits this bill so who else is not guilty of all the things and "what ifs" floyd has done?
Floyd seems to have just plodded along through the amateurs, and got lucky through the pros to get to this point through careful cherry picking and faced no challenges and cant carry durans jockstrap.
What boxer is clear of any criticism?
Your not reading my posts through and your just avoiding my question like bradlee is.
Ive already said floyd has flaws and etc and listened to all the opinions.
Im asking who you think in todays era has not done all the things floyd is criticised for?
Simple
What imaginary criteria? Listen, for the billionth time nobody is saying Floyd isn't great read that, if you take offense to anything I've posted re-read that line again and remind yourself of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
JMM also a great fighter, however 135 was very tough for him. He did win 2 fights there, but he had a lot of trouble, Baby Bull was giving JMM hell....BABY BULL!!! So of course giving JMM a fight where he had to go up in weight even more when he hadn't settled at 135 yet is just ridiculous. And we're supposed to give Floyd credit for beating THE JMM??? The real top class, P4P status having JMM....no, that was a ridiculous fight to have. That said they are 2 great fighters and it is always good to see 2 great fighters willing to fight each other
Ricky Hatton was THE MAN at 140, everyone agrees with that. Now I don't complain about the ref like a lot of people do :rolleyes: nor the ring size not anything but the weight the fight was signed at. Ricky Hatton had attempted to fight at 147 before fighting Floyd...Luis Collazo worked him over and some people thought he deserved to win that fight! And then Ricky goes back to 140, he's shaky there and after that Floyd says "Hey let's fight at 147"
Again, that being said timing is tough in the world of boxing, everyone (repeat) EVERYONE is hounded by the "what-ifs", "yeah buts", and so on (more so if they want to be considered a great, sorry THERE ARE STANDARDS). But Floyd being as big of a star as he is, he could have landed damn near any fight he wanted. This kind of thing hasn't only happened 1 time or 2 times, it's been a career long thing, but hey more power to Floyd he's an All-Time Great and all he does is win.
No boxer is immune to criticism and if anyone wants a criticism of Wlad or Vitali I'd give them as harsh a criticism as I do Floyd, but you have to understand, the heavyweight division is stagnant, people don't move up and down and there's not a never ending supply of top tier fighters from other divisions jumping in line to challenge the heavyweight champions, typically former heavyweights will unretire to fight for the title again and that's where some "fresh blood" comes in. Happens all the time. Floyd is gifted in being a welterweight because he can fight damn near anyone within about a 2 weight class range.
You won't get an answer haha. People want to villify Floyd so they act like he's the only one who did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
If anyone did any research they'd know that champs have been doing that since boxing's beginnings.
Read Jake Lamotta's autobiography: he mentions the fact that there were certain black fighters who were absolute killers that the champs and other upper-level guys wouldn't go near. Jake even goes on to say a lot of them would have chased champs like SRR out of the ring.
So take Sugar Ray Robinson, the consensus #1 of all time.
-Avoided fighters (this has been stated by peers like Jake Lamotta)
-Egomaniac with a large entourage (he even hired a midget to make him laugh/cheer him up)
-Beat the shit out of his wife and kids (a fact confirmed by his kids)
I don't see how he was all that different from Floyd, but people love to talk about the old guys like they were "real men", as opposed to the sissies who fight now adays.
I knew i wouldnt get an answer from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerYou won't get an answer haha. People want to villify Floyd so they act like he's the only one who did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
If anyone did any research they'd know that champs have been doing that since boxing's beginnings.
Read Jake Lamotta's autobiography: he mentions the fact that there were certain black fighters who were absolute killers that the champs and other upper-level guys wouldn't go near. Jake even goes on to say a lot of them would have chased champs like SRR out of the ring.
So take Sugar Ray Robinson, the consensus #1 of all time.
-Avoided fighters (this has been stated by peers like Jake Lamotta)
-Egomaniac with a large entourage (he even hired a midget to make him laugh/cheer him up)
-Beat the shit out of his wife and kids (a fact confirmed by his kids)
I don't see how he was all that different from Floyd, but people love to talk about the old guys like they were "real men", as opposed to the sissies who fight now adays.
Shame they cant answer the questions that matter instead of going round in circles all the time.
Heavyweight divison whether stagnant or not is the heavyweight divison.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongWhat imaginary criteria? Listen, for the billionth time nobody is saying Floyd isn't great read that, if you take offense to anything I've posted re-read that line again and remind yourself of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
JMM also a great fighter, however 135 was very tough for him. He did win 2 fights there, but he had a lot of trouble, Baby Bull was giving JMM hell....BABY BULL!!! So of course giving JMM a fight where he had to go up in weight even more when he hadn't settled at 135 yet is just ridiculous. And we're supposed to give Floyd credit for beating THE JMM??? The real top class, P4P status having JMM....no, that was a ridiculous fight to have. That said they are 2 great fighters and it is always good to see 2 great fighters willing to fight each other
Ricky Hatton was THE MAN at 140, everyone agrees with that. Now I don't complain about the ref like a lot of people do :rolleyes: nor the ring size not anything but the weight the fight was signed at. Ricky Hatton had attempted to fight at 147 before fighting Floyd...Luis Collazo worked him over and some people thought he deserved to win that fight! And then Ricky goes back to 140, he's shaky there and after that Floyd says "Hey let's fight at 147"
Again, that being said timing is tough in the world of boxing, everyone (repeat) EVERYONE is hounded by the "what-ifs", "yeah buts", and so on (more so if they want to be considered a great, sorry THERE ARE STANDARDS). But Floyd being as big of a star as he is, he could have landed damn near any fight he wanted. This kind of thing hasn't only happened 1 time or 2 times, it's been a career long thing, but hey more power to Floyd he's an All-Time Great and all he does is win.
No boxer is immune to criticism and if anyone wants a criticism of Wlad or Vitali I'd give them as harsh a criticism as I do Floyd, but you have to understand, the heavyweight division is stagnant, people don't move up and down and there's not a never ending supply of top tier fighters from other divisions jumping in line to challenge the heavyweight champions, typically former heavyweights will unretire to fight for the title again and that's where some "fresh blood" comes in. Happens all the time. Floyd is gifted in being a welterweight because he can fight damn near anyone within about a 2 weight class range.
Eveyone wants to be the heavyweight champion of the world its the limit in any contact sport.
In the lower divisons there is movement to challenge others from other neighbouring weight classes but at the end of the day Talent is Talent regardless of what divison you are in.
Just think if mayweather was a heavyweight, his bank balance would be insane.
Thanks to the mod who banned ('onetime' Match purist whoever it really is) for a week while Ive been asleep. When he comes back in a week, its my turn :cool:. Just for being rude.
They'd expect more KOs from him at heavyweight but I don't disagree with anything you said. He's a great boxer I never denied that.Quote:
Originally Posted by impHeavyweight divison whether stagnant or not is the heavyweight divison.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongWhat imaginary criteria? Listen, for the billionth time nobody is saying Floyd isn't great read that, if you take offense to anything I've posted re-read that line again and remind yourself of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
JMM also a great fighter, however 135 was very tough for him. He did win 2 fights there, but he had a lot of trouble, Baby Bull was giving JMM hell....BABY BULL!!! So of course giving JMM a fight where he had to go up in weight even more when he hadn't settled at 135 yet is just ridiculous. And we're supposed to give Floyd credit for beating THE JMM??? The real top class, P4P status having JMM....no, that was a ridiculous fight to have. That said they are 2 great fighters and it is always good to see 2 great fighters willing to fight each other
Ricky Hatton was THE MAN at 140, everyone agrees with that. Now I don't complain about the ref like a lot of people do :rolleyes: nor the ring size not anything but the weight the fight was signed at. Ricky Hatton had attempted to fight at 147 before fighting Floyd...Luis Collazo worked him over and some people thought he deserved to win that fight! And then Ricky goes back to 140, he's shaky there and after that Floyd says "Hey let's fight at 147"
Again, that being said timing is tough in the world of boxing, everyone (repeat) EVERYONE is hounded by the "what-ifs", "yeah buts", and so on (more so if they want to be considered a great, sorry THERE ARE STANDARDS). But Floyd being as big of a star as he is, he could have landed damn near any fight he wanted. This kind of thing hasn't only happened 1 time or 2 times, it's been a career long thing, but hey more power to Floyd he's an All-Time Great and all he does is win.
No boxer is immune to criticism and if anyone wants a criticism of Wlad or Vitali I'd give them as harsh a criticism as I do Floyd, but you have to understand, the heavyweight division is stagnant, people don't move up and down and there's not a never ending supply of top tier fighters from other divisions jumping in line to challenge the heavyweight champions, typically former heavyweights will unretire to fight for the title again and that's where some "fresh blood" comes in. Happens all the time. Floyd is gifted in being a welterweight because he can fight damn near anyone within about a 2 weight class range.
Eveyone wants to be the heavyweight champion of the world its the limit in any contact sport.
In the lower divisons there is movement to challenge others from other neighbouring weight classes but at the end of the day Talent is Talent regardless of what divison you are in.
Just think if mayweather was a heavyweight, his bank balance would be insane.
You fellas still at it?!
http://scheincommunications.com/wp-c...lish_thumb.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI
Roberto, you had your time at the top, let Floyd have his. Who gives a damn about your opinion?
This is very true and also very much glossed over. You're referring to the Murderers Row. No one wanted a part of them and yes the very own Sugar Ray Robinson avoided them too. Some people just won't admit the old timers weren't so special/different or really don't know their history and just go with the snowballing consensus opinion. With a set opinion it will only turn a debate into an argument with no chance of resolution. So I just leave the facts on the table and walk away.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerYou won't get an answer haha. People want to villify Floyd so they act like he's the only one who did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
If anyone did any research they'd know that champs have been doing that since boxing's beginnings.
Read Jake Lamotta's autobiography: he mentions the fact that there were certain black fighters who were absolute killers that the champs and other upper-level guys wouldn't go near. Jake even goes on to say a lot of them would have chased champs like SRR out of the ring.
So take Sugar Ray Robinson, the consensus #1 of all time.
-Avoided fighters (this has been stated by peers like Jake Lamotta)
-Egomaniac with a large entourage (he even hired a midget to make him laugh/cheer him up)
-Beat the shit out of his wife and kids (a fact confirmed by his kids)
I don't see how he was all that different from Floyd, but people love to talk about the old guys like they were "real men", as opposed to the sissies who fight now adays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jehoshaphat
Yeah, and to clarify to others I'm not saying SRR was afraid of anyone. SRR would have fought any of those guys people say he ducked, had they been the biggest money fights at the time IMO.
It's all about risk and reward. As a fighter, you want to take the fight that offers you the most reward. This is prize fighting, after all. Most of the time, the biggest reward fight is against the toughest guy. But every now and then you get it where the toughest guy is relatively unknown (most likely because he's the toughest and nobody of note wants to fight him), and it isn't the money fight.
I mean if anyone has an example where a champion turned down a big money fight to take on a notoriously tough but relative unknown for a fraction of the purse, feel free to post it. I can't think of one.
Perhaps I'm being naïve here but didn't organized crime have something to do with those fellas not getting any shots....but hey Organized Crime, Boxing Commissions, what's the difference?
For all his finesse and ability Floyd has not fought the one guy from this era who has some similarities to Duran. Hell, he even looks like him a little with his beard and all. Manny will be remembered as being anything but ordinary. Roberto is doing FMJ a disservice by calling him ordinary but Floyd has only himself to blame for history maybe not looking as kindly on his legacy as he would wish. Pacquiao fought Cotto 3 years before Floyd was willing to, he looked way more impressive against Hatton and Oscar, he fought Margarito, he was willing to fight people like Morales and Barrera earlier in his career, even though they were very dangerous and he had to rematch Morales twice to avenge his first defeat and prove it was no fluke. So yes there are boxers today who are not so obsessed with keeping their 0 that they take an obsessively safety first route their whole career.
Nobody is calling Floyd a bum, he is certainly an ATG but he is a long way from being as great as he thinks he is, and that is primarily his fault.
Good to see this thread ending on pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
After all the opinions it turns out that floyd never fought a duran of this era which is manny pac.
Manny will never be ordinary and he fought every single top tier fighter at the right time and never ducked anyone.
Manny and duran are flawless and are the true atg.
The fact that floyd/manny never fought must be only floyds fault and floyds whole career has be based on this one fighter.
Great stuff.
Ps:- Every single boxer on earth wants to keep there 0..wouldnt you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
I don't see how it's any more his fault than Pacquiaos, does anyone honestly not find it ridiculous that Manny was afraid of needles to this day? I don't care what may have happened in negotiations after that, Pacquiao stuck to that bullshit for quite a while and never gave himself a reasonable out there.
The only difference in Pacquiaos career path is that he was more evenly matched with his peers, if you ask me. Morales and Marquez etc were such hard fights because Pacquiao isn't actually any better than they were, not because he was taking on bigger tests than Floyd. You think Manny wouldn't have rather had Floyds prospects? Cmon;D
There will always be reasons for and against in the common opponents that floyd and manny have faced.
Pro Floyd reason:-
1. Beat oscar at his weight earlier than manny.
2. Beat a prime, UNDEFEATED ricky hatton.
3. Beat a young, prime victor ortiz
4. Beat moseley after margarito when no one wanted to fight him
5. Beat cotto at his weight.
Pro pacman reason:-
1. Beat oscar after stepping up to 147.
2. Beat hatton at his weight
3. Beat mosely.
4. Beat an avoided margarito.
5. Beat a tough cotto.
Conclusion:-
Both floyd and manny beat all the above at different weights at different times but they did beat them.
Apart from ortiz and margarito not being a common opponent between them the only guy i didnt mention was marquez.
If we were going to just talk about opponents and how they handled each one differently marquez is the one that stands out as the guy to draw with manny one, loose twice in fights that could have went either way, and in the last fight that old marquez was loosing KO manny in the worst way possible thus ending the chapter.
Then theres the floyd vs marquez fight...even marquez himself as a true mexican atg hall of famer has said numerous times theres no point in a rematch with floyd and that floyd beats manny everytime.
Surely that must sum it all up once and for all.
Both floyd and manny have to be respected for both their achievements..but i think we all know who edged it in every way.
Floyd doesnt duck fighters. He just doesnt like top rank..isnt that obvious?
Close your eyes for a minute and pretend that the guys floyd ducked were on golden boy and not on top rank...do you still think those fights wouldnt have happened?
Who are all these extraordinary fighters that this ordinary fighter Floyd ducked and post a little proof while you are at it? Simply saying names over and and over again ad nauseam is not in and of itself factual proof. Its an accusation and all of them especially Manny are starting to actually invoke the gag reflex.
I made a list a few years back, lemme see if I can find it....
---------------circa 2008------------------------
“The mayweather Avoidance List”
mayweather was very good at super-featherweight 130 lbs, but he left the division in 2001. Since 2001 at 130 lbs, for the past 6 years, mayweather has NOT fought the top guy in any of these weight classes he’s jumped to.
In 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, mayweather was champ at 130lbs.
IN ROUGHLY SAME TIME PERIOD 4 lbs less at 126 lbs was:
1. Prince Naseem Hamed
2. Marco Antonio Barrera
3. Erik Morales
4. Juan Manuel Marquez
5. Manny Pacquiao
In 2002, mayweather went up 5 lbs to lightweight 135 lbs and LOST to Castillo, but Castillo was robbed in the decision.
At 130 or 135:
6. Joel Casamayor
7. Juan Lazcano
8. Acelino Freitas
9. Paul Spadafora
At 140:
10. Kostya Tszyu
11. Ricky Hatton
12. Oktay Urkal
13. Vivian Harris
14. Miguel Cotto
At 147:
15. Paul Williams
16. Shane Mosely
17. Antonio Margarito
18. Joshua Clottey
19. Kermit Cintron
With 19 good fighters to pick from over the past 6 years, why has the self-proclaimed p4p greatest-of-all-time been fighting:
jesus chavez
carlos hernandez
sosa
n’dou
demarcus corley
bruseles
baldomir
a no-class, undisciplined judah
a washed-up Gatti
a washed-up Mitchell
a faded part-time fighter like De La Hoya
Why has mayweather avoided 19 top men in his climb through the divisions?
mayweather has 1 Hall-of-Famer on his entire resume: De la Hoya…and I think De La Hoya won that fight on effective aggression. Split-decision, my rosy red rectum.
mayweather has talent and was very good at 130 lbs. Since leaving 130 lbs, it’s just been a lot of garbage for the past 6 years, a lot of ducking the top opposition, all along proclaiming himself the best p4p of all time. Fantasy world.
I hate seeing a beautiful high-performance engine being put up on the blocks to rust, or being driven in an old granny style Sunday drive. Take that baby out and open her up, see what she can do.
Don’t you think if lil floyd had fought at least a few of these 19 outstanding men above instead of 2nd and 3rd tier opposition, it would add to his legacy just a bit. You have a deep knowledge and passion for the sport, Tam-Tam; let’s hear you tackle it. What’s the explanation?
Remember: “Boxing without Bull$#!t.” Hagler fought the best opposition available to him. Mike McCallum is the sole guy I can think of that Hagler didn’t fight.
Hagler certainly didn’t have a list of 19 elite fighters that he avoided, Hagler welcomed the challenge to prove himself against the very best.
The linear 147 lb champion has NOT fought a single top-tier welterweight yet.
C’mon, fight a legitimate top welterweight contender, at least one.
Make some believers out of us.
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