A case in point, the UK used to build ships. A sunk industry. Others could do it cheaper and more efficiently and in decades from a world leader to a world bleeder. Unions cannot do a thing against globalisation.
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A case in point, the UK used to build ships. A sunk industry. Others could do it cheaper and more efficiently and in decades from a world leader to a world bleeder. Unions cannot do a thing against globalisation.
Unions were not the cause of the economy leading to a down turn and recession.
Strong Unions give workers better rights/pay/working conditions and I would rather that senior managers (fat cats) getting overpaid or even worse shareholders taking a slice of the profits.
Master there is a big difference between public and private unions in the US. Public unions are the fat cats and have run our states into huge deficits as they are basically feeding the Democratic Party. I’m not saying the Republican Party hasn’t joined in to an extent but I worked for my state for many years and I saw first hand how it operated and it’s just a bunch of fat cats keeping themselves in power. Unions certainly did do some positive things for workers during the industrial revolution, the monopolies, labor laws etc back in the day but seriously collective bargaining has run its course and turned into part of the political machine, especially at the public level. Modern labor laws protect workers just about as good as any union. You can actually do a search online for state and federal labor laws and workers protection and get an idea of what I’m talking about. Some day I’ll send you a link showing you my states deficit and how much of that is due to the state union. And this is coming from someone who worked for the state for many years. At the union meetings they would try to start anti republican chants which is actually breaking their own rules but it was the union president doing it. By the way, my state is in debt to the union for billions and billions of dollars. That means everyone we raise taxes to improve roads, we aren’t doing that, we are raising taxes to feed the unions who donate to the politicians who will support the unions. It’s a big scamQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
That sounds like an abuse of power by those particular Unions which is counterproductive as it is letting their members down. Unions do not want to bring down companies/economies because it hurts their own members.
Over here there has been an erosion of workers’ rights which has led to zero hour contracts and low pay. Yet the super-rich get even wealthier. I would rather the money be more equally and fairly distributed than it going to a few at the top.
Ya I get you. I’m not saying it’s perfect here. Plenty of companies take advantage of workers when they can but too many unions, especially public unions, are willing to kill a state to keep pockets full. I’m not saying unions are inherently bad unfunded pension liabilities are sinking companies and states. Shit I’d love to see everyone make 100 bucks an hour. None of us are dumb, we can see both sides of the issue and they both have merit but when the unions can’t be be separated from politics and everybody’s goal is to stay in power and not have an army of workers but an army of voters you can see how that becomes problematic. If private businesses saw what they were really paying for with these public unions I think we would have a mini revolution but we are probably about 20 years away from that right now. I live in one of the highest taxed states in the US we have a nasty deficit and it’s all due to the public union.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Working in the public sector has benefits of job security for relatively lower pay. The pension is better and so it should be for staff. I would not begrudge them having a decent income when they retire. They have stopped final salary pensions over here and introduced average payment schemes. This is a lot better than the private sector, which I have been taken over by and they will try and take these benefits away but for the unions.
Shoot in many cases here the public sector pay rate is 2-3 times that of the private. And that’s just straight pay not taking into account all the benefits. Shit I had a car for a few years. But perhaps we are comparing apples and oranges I don’t know how you guys do things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
We get no car in the public sector just 45p per mile using our own vehicle. Unions here are linked to the Labour party which influence policy but that is better than a millionaires donating to the Tory party to keep business taxes low for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by walrusShoot in many cases here the public sector pay rate is 2-3 times that of the private. And that’s just straight pay not taking into account all the benefits. Shit I had a car for a few years. But perhaps we are comparing apples and oranges I don’t know how you guys do things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
If Unions = Good then perhaps someone will explain Progressive "news" organization The Young Turks wanting to keep their business Union free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g93YGdtEy98
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
"The industry". I'm not going on one industry or even the industrial sector of the US economy. I'm going on the entire US economy over 75 years. Not anecdata from one person's experience and the experience of a bunch of similarly clueless people that he's talked to.
And by the way, the Japanese steel industry had the same experience with being undercut by cheaper labour that America did. By the mid eighties Japan was having its lunch eaten by Korea, Taiwan and other Asian countries where the labour was cheaper. It wasn't down to unions of anything else, it was down to a second world economy becoming a first world economy and then being undercut by emerging second world economies.
But your incorrect anecdata leads me beauttifully to be able to make my point again with another excellent example. America suffered in the seventies and eighties from emerging economies taking global market share away from its domestic businesses. But eventually all these people found new jobs. You may be aware that our current president is trumpeting the best economy ever and the lowest unemployment in half a century. But there's a problem here. A lot of these new jobs are shitty jobs with low pay and no benefits compared to jobs back in the day.
Want to take a guess why? GDP per capita has doubled in real terms since Reagan busted the unions. But that huge increase in income hasn't gone to the vast majority of the country. It's going to a tiny number of people at the top of the tree. Why is that? Is the fact that American labour now can't bargain collectively with their bosses to be given a slice of that increased income to blame? Maybe the fact that the date labour/unions lost their political muscle coinciding with American wages stagnating isn't a coincidence?
Other questions you won't answer. Why did industrial/factory type jobs pay so well in the first place? Was it because it was easy to organise the labour in big industrys because big groups of people worked in the same place? Why did they have great wages and benefits back then to the point where a union wage could buy a house, raise a family, pay for holidays and cars and the American dream and even enough for college funds for the kids? How could all that be done on one wage compared to now? Have you seen when women first started to move into the employment market en masse? Nowadays families can't make ends meet working two full time jobs. How can national income per person have doubled in the last forty years yet families have gone from one income to two and are still struggling?
How come the workers at Foxconn (the people who assemble iphones) are working for a dollar an hour doing a hundred and twenty hours a week with working conditions so inhumane that the dormitories they live in are surrounded by suicide nets to stop workers creating bad publicity for Apple?
https://guestlist.net/uploads/articl...5/11/88856.png
Maybe the fact that they're not allowed to unionise has something to do with it. Just a thought.
Like I said previously, take unions out of this altogether. Ban unions. End them completely. The fact remains that American labour needs some way to be able to get a slice of the increasing economic pie from bosses. American labour used to have a way to do this, now they don't. Whether it's unions or some other actor negotiating for labour then labour really needs this. It's not just a question of families struggling or fairness or anything like that. I'm not that fussed about other people to be honest. What I can see as clear as day, because I study this stuff for a living and have done for nearly thirty years now, is that the economy has become so unequal -- coincidentally starting to become so when unions lost their power -- that it is now a deformed entity, unable to generate decent economic growth even with massive ongoing economic stimulus and increasing large scale debt. And this has consequences eventually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
This is a boss who wants to keep as much money as he possibly can for himself. You can call him a hypocrite, he definitely is but it's just another example of what I'm talking about. Hopefully the people working for him manage to unionise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by walrusShoot in many cases here the public sector pay rate is 2-3 times that of the private. And that’s just straight pay not taking into account all the benefits. Shit I had a car for a few years. But perhaps we are comparing apples and oranges I don’t know how you guys do things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Name some of these cases. Show some actual examples of wages, salaries and so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I come from what used to be the biggest shipbuilding town in the world. You either worked in the shipyards of in a coal mine. My family were all shipbuilders or coal miners. But Polish coal came along at half the price and Korean ships at half the price. We were probably the world's first post industrial area. Forty percent unemployment overnight. We haven't found out a way to ameliorate these kind of problems either. It's going to happen in any first world country when emerging economies can undercut your domestic firms. It's one of the shittier aspects of capitalism.
Actually in China the people can form unions but those unions have to be part of something called the All-China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU). And that Union is controlled by the Communist Party directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
But I'm sure you know better....I mean you study this EVERY DAY!!!!!!....this just happened to fall off your "little shelf"
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongActually in China the people can form unions but those unions have to be part of something called the All-China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU). And that Union is controlled by the Communist Party directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
But I'm sure you know better....I mean you study this EVERY DAY!!!!!!....this just happened to fall off your "little shelf"
Yes Lyle, I know. They can't form any kind of independent bargaining organisation that represents them. You either disappear or are put in prison if you try.
https://www.ft.com/content/8ca45576-...6-bf4a0ce37d49
We all know you've worked in finance 30 years, Kirk. It still doesn't excuse you from being condescending and belligerent when discussing issues having to do with the economy.
You of all people should know the economy doesn't rise and fall due to one single, solitary factor. There are always several involved.
It's just like those who think that the economy turns on a dime. I've played down the credit people want to give solely to Trump and blame they want to place squarely on Obama based on that very same principle.
But I digress. My point is that we should be able to have a conversation about something you're obviously very passionate about, like labor unions, without devolving into an insult-fest.
My only points are this:
1. The demise of unions are not solely to blame for the shrinking wages (in purchasing power) in recent economies.
2. Unions have brought both good and bad to U.S. industry. You've stated some of the good..... I stated some of the bad. (Oh..... and about your anecdote-phobia..... is your waxing on about your shipbuilding and mining ancestry not engaging in anecdotes? IMO, it's bad form to discount things like personal experience when discussing an issue. But you may differ on that.)
3. Obtaining better wages for the American worker doesn't necessarily need to be through the traditional labor unions. Can't we come up with different mechanisms to reach the same goal?
The following article points to some of the other factors that can be blamed for the worker wage situation we're facing today.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/we...ers-2019-05-29
I don't wish to continue the hostilities, but I'll insist that once in awhile we need to get our heads out of the textbooks, and see how things occur in real life. My telling you about experiences with labor unions in very unionized industries such as the steel industry isn't meant to eliminate or counter any of the data you've presented. But rather to complement it with a rounder picture of what unions bring to the table, both good and bad.
Oh....wow.....the Communists, they do things like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
I actually can do that sir. I can give you at least two names out of the alleged 12-14 which it wasn’t that many. But first, since you brought it up, who do you know amongst the group? You live in the US I’m sure you would have contacts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingQuote:
Originally Posted by walrusShoot in many cases here the public sector pay rate is 2-3 times that of the private. And that’s just straight pay not taking into account all the benefits. Shit I had a car for a few years. But perhaps we are comparing apples and oranges I don’t know how you guys do things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Name some of these cases. Show some actual examples of wages, salaries and so on.
Being his business does he not have the right to determine what he wants to pay? He was kind enough to employ them. If they don't like it they could join a rival who will offer more or else start their own cooperative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
This is a boss who wants to keep as much money as he possibly can for himself. You can call him a hypocrite, he definitely is but it's just another example of what I'm talking about. Hopefully the people working for him manage to unionise.
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingQuote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I come from what used to be the biggest shipbuilding town in the world. You either worked in the shipyards of in a coal mine. My family were all shipbuilders or coal miners. But Polish coal came along at half the price and Korean ships at half the price. We were probably the world's first post industrial area. Forty percent unemployment overnight. We haven't found out a way to ameliorate these kind of problems either. It's going to happen in any first world country when emerging economies can undercut your domestic firms. It's one of the shittier aspects of capitalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Unions being neutered is the overriding number one reason that wages have been stagnant for forty years. Look at this.
https://i.ibb.co/9hMyM4L/trump-top-one-percent.png
That article you posted admits at the start the consensus opinion is that the lack of union power is the reason for stagnating wages and then proceeds to quote McKinsey, a consultancy firm that have been used by corporations to attack unions for generations. The best reason McKinsey can come up with that unions aren't a big factor is the "boom and bust" cycles since 2000. There have always been boom and bust cycles. You get expansions and then recessions. That's never been any different. It's incoherent garbage and the graph/numbers are bullshit too. They're counting every small busnessman, CEO, executive, doctor, lawyer, accountant, dentist and other professional as "labour". Anything thatisn't investment income is counted as "labour". What a load of shite.
Oh and globalisation. That's actually true. Workers had no say in how globalisation was done. Why was that? Unions have no political muscle anymore and don't have a seat at the table for economic policy decisions anymore like they did in the pre-Reagan era.
Look at the graph I posted though. Per capita income, adjusted for inflation has doubled since Reagan took office. That's per capita though, the average. If you and your best friend and Bill Gates share a taxi somewhere the average salary for the four people in the taxi is three billion dollars a year. So averages are misleading. Half of American workers are actually worse off over the last forty years. You can see who is making all the money. This is not rocket science. There needs to be somebody representing the people who are getting fucked up the arse every day or they're going to continue to get fucked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongOh....wow.....the Communists, they do things like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
The Communists do do things like that Lyle. And the capitalists don't give a flying fuck. They pretended to give a fuck back when China wouldn't do business with them and China was vilified for decades by America as a prison camp tyranny. The only thing China have changed is that they now allow western capitalists to invest there. The prison camps remain. We just found out that hundreds of thousands of Chinese minorities are now being used as slave labour for various western businesses. Here's a partial list of the wonderful western companies currently profiting from slave labour from people whose only crime is to be a minority in China:
Apple, BMW, Gap Nike, Samsung, Abercrombie & Fitch, Acer, Adidas, Alstom, Amazon, Apple, ASUS, BAIC Motor, BMW, Bombardier, Bosch, BYD, Calvin Klein, Candy, Carter’s, Cerruti 1881, Changan Automobile, Cisco, CRRC, Dell, Electrolux, Fila, Founder Group, GAC Group (automobiles), Gap, Geely Auto, General Electric, General Motors, Google, H&M, Haier, Hart Schaffner Marx, Hisense, Hitachi, HP, HTC, Huawei, iFlyTek, Jack & Jones, Jaguar, Japan Display Inc., L.L.Bean, Lacoste, Land Rover, Lenovo, LG, Li-Ning, Mayor, Meizu, Mercedes-Benz, MG, Microsoft, Mitsubishi, Mitsumi, Nike, Nintendo, Nokia, The North Face, Oculus, Oppo, Panasonic, Polo Ralph Lauren, Puma, Roewe, SAIC Motor, Samsung, SGMW, Sharp, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Tsinghua Tongfang, Uniqlo, Victoria’s Secret, Vivo, Volkswagen, Xiaomi, Zara, Zegna, ZTE.
https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
Nobody in the corporate world gives a fuck about what political system a country has, whether it's a democracy or a tyranny, they don't care about human rights or any of the other bullshit we're told we stand for over here. It's all about the benjamins.
I like that you responded as if my comment was serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongOh....wow.....the Communists, they do things like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
The Communists do do things like that Lyle. And the capitalists don't give a flying fuck. They pretended to give a fuck back when China wouldn't do business with them and China was vilified for decades by America as a prison camp tyranny. The only thing China have changed is that they now allow western capitalists to invest there. The prison camps remain. We just found out that hundreds of thousands of Chinese minorities are now being used as slave labour for various western businesses. Here's a partial list of the wonderful western companies currently profiting from slave labour from people whose only crime is to be a minority in China:
Apple, BMW, Gap Nike, Samsung, Abercrombie & Fitch, Acer, Adidas, Alstom, Amazon, Apple, ASUS, BAIC Motor, BMW, Bombardier, Bosch, BYD, Calvin Klein, Candy, Carter’s, Cerruti 1881, Changan Automobile, Cisco, CRRC, Dell, Electrolux, Fila, Founder Group, GAC Group (automobiles), Gap, Geely Auto, General Electric, General Motors, Google, H&M, Haier, Hart Schaffner Marx, Hisense, Hitachi, HP, HTC, Huawei, iFlyTek, Jack & Jones, Jaguar, Japan Display Inc., L.L.Bean, Lacoste, Land Rover, Lenovo, LG, Li-Ning, Mayor, Meizu, Mercedes-Benz, MG, Microsoft, Mitsubishi, Mitsumi, Nike, Nintendo, Nokia, The North Face, Oculus, Oppo, Panasonic, Polo Ralph Lauren, Puma, Roewe, SAIC Motor, Samsung, SGMW, Sharp, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Tsinghua Tongfang, Uniqlo, Victoria’s Secret, Vivo, Volkswagen, Xiaomi, Zara, Zegna, ZTE.
https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
Nobody in the corporate world gives a fuck about what political system a country has, whether it's a democracy or a tyranny, they don't care about human rights or any of the other bullshit we're told we stand for over here. It's all about the benjamins.
You really don't get it do you? Ha! It's like talking to a child mate. Trump and your right wing bollocky media corporations don't give a flying fig about you. Just another gullible faceless consumer they can sell to. They have sold you the lie that Trump is a break from tradition and you swallowed it, selling out your country, your morals, your ability to reason and convincing you to join in pretending that filling the swamp is all you can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongI like that you responded as if my comment was serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongOh....wow.....the Communists, they do things like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
The Communists do do things like that Lyle. And the capitalists don't give a flying fuck. They pretended to give a fuck back when China wouldn't do business with them and China was vilified for decades by America as a prison camp tyranny. The only thing China have changed is that they now allow western capitalists to invest there. The prison camps remain. We just found out that hundreds of thousands of Chinese minorities are now being used as slave labour for various western businesses. Here's a partial list of the wonderful western companies currently profiting from slave labour from people whose only crime is to be a minority in China:
Apple, BMW, Gap Nike, Samsung, Abercrombie & Fitch, Acer, Adidas, Alstom, Amazon, Apple, ASUS, BAIC Motor, BMW, Bombardier, Bosch, BYD, Calvin Klein, Candy, Carter’s, Cerruti 1881, Changan Automobile, Cisco, CRRC, Dell, Electrolux, Fila, Founder Group, GAC Group (automobiles), Gap, Geely Auto, General Electric, General Motors, Google, H&M, Haier, Hart Schaffner Marx, Hisense, Hitachi, HP, HTC, Huawei, iFlyTek, Jack & Jones, Jaguar, Japan Display Inc., L.L.Bean, Lacoste, Land Rover, Lenovo, LG, Li-Ning, Mayor, Meizu, Mercedes-Benz, MG, Microsoft, Mitsubishi, Mitsumi, Nike, Nintendo, Nokia, The North Face, Oculus, Oppo, Panasonic, Polo Ralph Lauren, Puma, Roewe, SAIC Motor, Samsung, SGMW, Sharp, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Tsinghua Tongfang, Uniqlo, Victoria’s Secret, Vivo, Volkswagen, Xiaomi, Zara, Zegna, ZTE.
https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
Nobody in the corporate world gives a fuck about what political system a country has, whether it's a democracy or a tyranny, they don't care about human rights or any of the other bullshit we're told we stand for over here. It's all about the benjamins.
Be worse. Be empty. Be vacuous. Repeat what you are told. Do not question
You are the biggest party line spokesman on here mate.
A full on Commie on so many ways.
😁
If I was a "full on commie" you'd agree with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanzYou really don't get it do you? Ha! It's like talking to a child mate. Trump and your right wing bollocky media corporations don't give a flying fig about you. Just another gullible faceless consumer they can sell to. They have sold you the lie that Trump is a break from tradition and you swallowed it, selling out your country, your morals, your ability to reason and convincing you to join in pretending that filling the swamp is all you can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongI like that you responded as if my comment was serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongOh....wow.....the Communists, they do things like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
The Communists do do things like that Lyle. And the capitalists don't give a flying fuck. They pretended to give a fuck back when China wouldn't do business with them and China was vilified for decades by America as a prison camp tyranny. The only thing China have changed is that they now allow western capitalists to invest there. The prison camps remain. We just found out that hundreds of thousands of Chinese minorities are now being used as slave labour for various western businesses. Here's a partial list of the wonderful western companies currently profiting from slave labour from people whose only crime is to be a minority in China:
Apple, BMW, Gap Nike, Samsung, Abercrombie & Fitch, Acer, Adidas, Alstom, Amazon, Apple, ASUS, BAIC Motor, BMW, Bombardier, Bosch, BYD, Calvin Klein, Candy, Carter’s, Cerruti 1881, Changan Automobile, Cisco, CRRC, Dell, Electrolux, Fila, Founder Group, GAC Group (automobiles), Gap, Geely Auto, General Electric, General Motors, Google, H&M, Haier, Hart Schaffner Marx, Hisense, Hitachi, HP, HTC, Huawei, iFlyTek, Jack & Jones, Jaguar, Japan Display Inc., L.L.Bean, Lacoste, Land Rover, Lenovo, LG, Li-Ning, Mayor, Meizu, Mercedes-Benz, MG, Microsoft, Mitsubishi, Mitsumi, Nike, Nintendo, Nokia, The North Face, Oculus, Oppo, Panasonic, Polo Ralph Lauren, Puma, Roewe, SAIC Motor, Samsung, SGMW, Sharp, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Tsinghua Tongfang, Uniqlo, Victoria’s Secret, Vivo, Volkswagen, Xiaomi, Zara, Zegna, ZTE.
https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
Nobody in the corporate world gives a fuck about what political system a country has, whether it's a democracy or a tyranny, they don't care about human rights or any of the other bullshit we're told we stand for over here. It's all about the benjamins.
Be worse. Be empty. Be vacuous. Repeat what you are told. Do not question
You are the biggest party line spokesman on here mate.
A full on Commie on so many ways.
😁
Also what "right wing bollocky media corporations" would you be referring to? I know that's a question so I only truly expect hate followed by a smiley face in return....in your typical fashion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Unions being neutered is the overriding number one reason that wages have been stagnant for forty years. Look at this.
https://i.ibb.co/9hMyM4L/trump-top-one-percent.png
That article you posted admits at the start the consensus opinion is that the lack of union power is the reason for stagnating wages and then proceeds to quote McKinsey, a consultancy firm that have been used by corporations to attack unions for generations. The best reason McKinsey can come up with that unions aren't a big factor is the "boom and bust" cycles since 2000. There have always been boom and bust cycles. You get expansions and then recessions. That's never been any different. It's incoherent garbage and the graph/numbers are bullshit too. They're counting every small busnessman, CEO, executive, doctor, lawyer, accountant, dentist and other professional as "labour". Anything thatisn't investment income is counted as "labour". What a load of shite.
Oh and globalisation. That's actually true. Workers had no say in how globalisation was done. Why was that? Unions have no political muscle anymore and don't have a seat at the table for economic policy decisions anymore like they did in the pre-Reagan era.
Look at the graph I posted though. Per capita income, adjusted for inflation has doubled since Reagan took office. That's per capita though, the average. If you and your best friend and Bill Gates share a taxi somewhere the average salary for the four people in the taxi is three billion dollars a year. So averages are misleading. Half of American workers are actually worse off over the last forty years. You can see who is making all the money. This is not rocket science. There needs to be somebody representing the people who are getting fucked up the arse every day or they're going to continue to get fucked.
To be clear, I don't disagree with you regarding the plight of the average American worker and his/her wages. Just wanted to clear that up front. I'm also definitely not part of that "top 1%" in your graph, so I'm not knocking unions for that reason. I think it all boils down to me asking you how would you solve this problem if it were up to you. Would you favor the old, traditional model of labor union? Or would you prefer another way or vehicle to have labor's interests better represented? You see.... all I was saying from the very beginning (and still saying) is that some of those traditional labor union models did some harm to industry which had nothing to do with stagnating wages or downtrodden American workers. So looking at the big picture... in what way do you think labor would be well served while maintaining the competitiveness of industry in today's globalized market? I'm all for American workers not having to hold down two jobs just to make ends meet. That's what has eroded the essence of American families over the last several decades. At the same time, and I know you hate "anecdotes and personal experience", traditional unions can and have been somewhat self-serving, and IMO you can't be narrow minded when demanding a list of conditions from a company. Big picture..... the ideal relationship between management and labor is a win-win where the workers are happy with the wages..... and companies are allowed to maintain their competitiveness.
Corporations are never going to have any kind of relationship with unions. Long story short, since FDR allowed collective bargaining back and give unions a seat at the economic policy table in the 1930s corporations have fought a scorched earth battle to overturn the legislation and take things back to before the New Deal era. There's a long history you can read about this. Under Reagan they succeeded.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Unions being neutered is the overriding number one reason that wages have been stagnant for forty years. Look at this.
https://i.ibb.co/9hMyM4L/trump-top-one-percent.png
That article you posted admits at the start the consensus opinion is that the lack of union power is the reason for stagnating wages and then proceeds to quote McKinsey, a consultancy firm that have been used by corporations to attack unions for generations. The best reason McKinsey can come up with that unions aren't a big factor is the "boom and bust" cycles since 2000. There have always been boom and bust cycles. You get expansions and then recessions. That's never been any different. It's incoherent garbage and the graph/numbers are bullshit too. They're counting every small busnessman, CEO, executive, doctor, lawyer, accountant, dentist and other professional as "labour". Anything thatisn't investment income is counted as "labour". What a load of shite.
Oh and globalisation. That's actually true. Workers had no say in how globalisation was done. Why was that? Unions have no political muscle anymore and don't have a seat at the table for economic policy decisions anymore like they did in the pre-Reagan era.
Look at the graph I posted though. Per capita income, adjusted for inflation has doubled since Reagan took office. That's per capita though, the average. If you and your best friend and Bill Gates share a taxi somewhere the average salary for the four people in the taxi is three billion dollars a year. So averages are misleading. Half of American workers are actually worse off over the last forty years. You can see who is making all the money. This is not rocket science. There needs to be somebody representing the people who are getting fucked up the arse every day or they're going to continue to get fucked.
To be clear, I don't disagree with you regarding the plight of the average American worker and his/her wages. Just wanted to clear that up front. I'm also definitely not part of that "top 1%" in your graph, so I'm not knocking unions for that reason. I think it all boils down to me asking you how would you solve this problem if it were up to you. Would you favor the old, traditional model of labor union? Or would you prefer another way or vehicle to have labor's interests better represented? You see.... all I was saying from the very beginning (and still saying) is that some of those traditional labor union models did some harm to industry which had nothing to do with stagnating wages or downtrodden American workers. So looking at the big picture... in what way do you think labor would be well served while maintaining the competitiveness of industry in today's globalized market? I'm all for American workers not having to hold down two jobs just to make ends meet. That's what has eroded the essence of American families over the last several decades. At the same time, and I know you hate "anecdotes and personal experience", traditional unions can and have been somewhat self-serving, and IMO you can't be narrow minded when demanding a list of conditions from a company. Big picture..... the ideal relationship between management and labor is a win-win where the workers are happy with the wages..... and companies are allowed to maintain their competitiveness.
It isn't about competitiveness. That's what corporations say when they're asked about why they're not increasing wages. It's not about international trade either. Less than one percent of American businesses export and ninety plus percent of exports are high quality manufactures and products that have patented IP or are products like airliners that few countries make, wages are an irrelevance with big value added products like this. Competitiveness is the absolute last thing they want. Do you know what happens in an actual competitive market with no barriers to entry and universal level playing field access to customers and suppliers? Profits trend towards zero. And profits are the single issue with corporations. If you're a CEO your one job is to maximise profits. If you can do this by screwing your workforce, cutting jobs, lobbying for legislation that fucks any competitor, buying up competitors or merging with one or just buying back your shares to increase the share price this is your job. If you don't succeed you're out on your arse.
How can we tell we have a sclerotic corporate landscape with a few big firms in every industry dominating the market by using the measures outlined above? Right now we have record corporate profits, that's how.
https://images.angelpub.com/2015/39/...vs-profits.png
Corporate profits versus wages
Here's an economist from the noted communists Goldman Sachs:
http://blogs.reuters.com/macroscope/...es-are-so-low/
Fox, The Sun, Creationist homophobic gobshites like Mark Dice, Zero fucking Hedge (:, Your fellow Penny Farthing riding Billy no mates hipster twat mate Asparagus of Aaragon, Right wing pressure groups like The Califonina Public Policy Centre, Rebel Media, Breitbart, The Sinclair Media Group, INFOWARS, The Daily Caller...need i go on?Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIf I was a "full on commie" you'd agree with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanzYou really don't get it do you? Ha! It's like talking to a child mate. Trump and your right wing bollocky media corporations don't give a flying fig about you. Just another gullible faceless consumer they can sell to. They have sold you the lie that Trump is a break from tradition and you swallowed it, selling out your country, your morals, your ability to reason and convincing you to join in pretending that filling the swamp is all you can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongI like that you responded as if my comment was serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongOh....wow.....the Communists, they do things like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
The Communists do do things like that Lyle. And the capitalists don't give a flying fuck. They pretended to give a fuck back when China wouldn't do business with them and China was vilified for decades by America as a prison camp tyranny. The only thing China have changed is that they now allow western capitalists to invest there. The prison camps remain. We just found out that hundreds of thousands of Chinese minorities are now being used as slave labour for various western businesses. Here's a partial list of the wonderful western companies currently profiting from slave labour from people whose only crime is to be a minority in China:
Apple, BMW, Gap Nike, Samsung, Abercrombie & Fitch, Acer, Adidas, Alstom, Amazon, Apple, ASUS, BAIC Motor, BMW, Bombardier, Bosch, BYD, Calvin Klein, Candy, Carter’s, Cerruti 1881, Changan Automobile, Cisco, CRRC, Dell, Electrolux, Fila, Founder Group, GAC Group (automobiles), Gap, Geely Auto, General Electric, General Motors, Google, H&M, Haier, Hart Schaffner Marx, Hisense, Hitachi, HP, HTC, Huawei, iFlyTek, Jack & Jones, Jaguar, Japan Display Inc., L.L.Bean, Lacoste, Land Rover, Lenovo, LG, Li-Ning, Mayor, Meizu, Mercedes-Benz, MG, Microsoft, Mitsubishi, Mitsumi, Nike, Nintendo, Nokia, The North Face, Oculus, Oppo, Panasonic, Polo Ralph Lauren, Puma, Roewe, SAIC Motor, Samsung, SGMW, Sharp, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Tsinghua Tongfang, Uniqlo, Victoria’s Secret, Vivo, Volkswagen, Xiaomi, Zara, Zegna, ZTE.
https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
Nobody in the corporate world gives a fuck about what political system a country has, whether it's a democracy or a tyranny, they don't care about human rights or any of the other bullshit we're told we stand for over here. It's all about the benjamins.
Be worse. Be empty. Be vacuous. Repeat what you are told. Do not question
You are the biggest party line spokesman on here mate.
A full on Commie on so many ways.
������
Also what "right wing bollocky media corporations" would you be referring to? I know that's a question so I only truly expect hate followed by a smiley face in return....in your typical fashion.
Oh good, you haven't forgotten about me, AND you've actually responded to a question appropriately (head pat) good boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
I'm not as big on Fox as I am on SOME of the talent they employ. To my knowledge I've never ever cited or quoted The Sun for obvious reasons. I'm not sure if Mark Dice is either a literal creationist or actually homophobic, he IS humorous though. Zero Hedge is pretty solid. Sargon of Akkad is fairly reasonable and he's not even "right wing". I have no idea who The California Public Policy Center is or why you would assume I would. California is like another country in a different dimension that is on LSD compared to where I live. Rebel Media has done decent things but again I more follow who USED to be on there rather than who is currently on there. Breitbart is good. I don't really follow Sinclair to my knowledge. I haven't listened to Alex Jones or Owen Shoyer or David Knight for a bit, I may need to check them out thanks for the reminder. The Daily Caller again has SOME people I enjoy listening to the views of.
Trump nor these corporations or the folks who work in them personally know me, but given their beliefs they have a greater understanding of how I view life than many other alternatives.
Now in contrast I've got to ask: Do you think any specific British politician or woke corporation cares about you? Otherwise why would you even bring this up and try to bludgeon me with it? Am I only to hold views that YOU agree with? Why? What makes you so important? I never ask you hold the same views as me, I just expect you to be able to define why you hold the views you do in an educated way and not say "just because"....is that wrong, my expecting rationality from you?
So you are not very informed then? You quote from these sources without even knowing who they are, support one of the most corrupt and morally bankrupt politicians on earth and applaud as he fills the swamp back up with sewage, and then get on your high horse about communists while ramming the bullshit that totalitarian capitalist corporations are somehow better down everyone's throats 48 hrs a day. If you think answering a question is bludgeoning you it may be time to stop pretending that the crap you are being fed by idiots is helping you.
Nobody else has bought into the fantasy delusion you have. Trump gives even less of a fuck about you and your country than any of the snake oil salesmen that went before him but you are the perfect consumer still lining up at the wagon even though the people from 50 previous towns have told you it is just rancid pit water in the medicine bottle old Donald is floggin you. Most people don't buy into the right/left false choice, but you suck it up even more now with the ideas that you are better than people who follow the MSM. Ha! You have always been Mr MSM. Nothing has changed.
Well that was a poor choice for you to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Have I though? Where have I cited The Sun....go on, I'll wait. As for "The Califonina Public Policy Centre" I've Googled that and literally all I have found is 1) Public Policy Institute of California - is an independent, nonpartisan, non-profit research institution. Based in San Francisco, California, the institute was established in 1994 with a $70 million endowment from William Redington Hewlett of Hewlett-Packard. and 2) California Policy Center - is a public policy think tank located in California. The organization specializes in union policy, pension reform, spending reform, and school choice. CPC's stated mission is "to secure a more prosperous future for all Californians." CPC was founded in 2010 by Marc Bucher and Edward Ring. It is a member of the State Policy Network, an association of state-based conservative and libertarian think tanks. So either you have fucked up the name OR made it up completely. I will assume from CPC's stance on Unions and School choice you mean them and in which case I'd ask why you would FORCE someone to join a union and why you'd keep a child from going to the best school for them? And since you're back to ignoring questions completely I won't hold my breath for a rational response.....oh and you seem SO nice when you post these, not angry at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
You don't seem to know who Hillary Clinton is or Joe Biden....curious. Donald Trump has never been a life long "party" man ergo his difficulties in the primary and underdog status when elected...oh and no worries he'll be re-elected quite easily. Capitalists by nature cannot be "totalitarian" it's an exchange based on free will, money for goods and services. The "Totalitarian" portions such as Apple for example having their phones made in sweatshops with suicide netting, that's down to CHINA's government and their labor laws. Apple is an international corporation and they're obviously taking advantage of those loose labor laws in other nations. If you think that's bad I'd suggest you never buy a chocolate bar ever again or an electric car or a pair of Nike's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
What "fantasy delusion" is that? Well if Trump doesn't care about the country he's got a strange way of showing it. I notice you didn't respond to my questions to you....a return to form. How coincidental. There IS a right/left choice....want me to prove it to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
What happens to the NHS under a Tory government vs a Labour government? What happens to benefits? Were YOU not on here lamenting how Tories were selling everyone out? Tories were trying to be like Trump?......Was that you or was that someone else?
None of the outlets you referenced are "Mainstream media" 0, none, nada, zilch, zero.....mainstream media would be NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, NYT, Washington Post, etc. The closest you'd have is Fox News and when do I reference them? Maybe Tucker Carlson, but that's about it.
Back to you spaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingQuote:
Originally Posted by walrus
Ooooh, another google search. You managed to google up a Koch Brothers pressure group:
The California Public Policy Center (formerly the California Public Policy Center) is a right-wing pressure group based in California. Founded in June 2010, it is a state affiliate of the $83 million right-wing State Policy Network (SPN), a web of state pressure groups that denote themselves as "think tanks" and drive a right-wing agenda in statehouses nationwide.[1] See SPN Members for more.
Although SPN's member organizations claim to be nonpartisan and independent, the Center for Media and Democracy's in-depth investigation, "EXPOSED: The State Policy Network -- The Powerful Right-Wing Network Helping to Hijack State Politics and Government," reveals that SPN and its member think tanks are major drivers of the right-wing, American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC)-backed corporate agenda in state houses nationwide, with deep ties to the Koch brothers and the national right-wing network of funders.[2]
In response to CMD's report, SPN Executive Director Tracie Sharp told national and statehouse reporters that SPN affiliates are "fiercely independent." Later the same week, however, The New Yorker's Jane Mayer caught Sharp in a contradiction. In her article, "Is IKEA the New Model for the Conservative Movement?," the Pulitzer-nominated reporter revealed that, in a recent meeting behind closed doors with the heads of SPN affiliates around the country, Sharp "compared the organization’s model to that of the giant global chain IKEA." She reportedly said that SPN "would provide 'the raw materials,' along with the 'services' needed to assemble the products. Rather than acting like passive customers who buy finished products, she wanted each state group to show the enterprise and creativity needed to assemble the parts in their home states. 'Pick what you need,' she said, 'and customize it for what works best for you.'" Not only that, but Sharp "also acknowledged privately to the members that the organization's often anonymous donors frequently shape the agenda. 'The grants are driven by donor intent,' she told the gathered think-tank heads. She added that, often, 'the donors have a very specific idea of what they want to happen.'"[3]
A set of coordinated fundraising proposals obtained and released by The Guardian in early December 2013 confirm many of these SPN members' intent to change state laws and policies, referring to "advancing model legislation" and "candidate briefings." These activities "arguably cross the line into lobbying," The Guardian notes.[4]
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.ph..._Policy_Center
So yeah, a bunch of guys who draw their salaries from right wing anti union billionaires don't like unions. Assuming your household earns sixty thousand a year which is roughly the median household income you're about one point six million out of pocket over the last forty years due to enough fucking idiots being fed bullshit like this to cause them to vote against their economic interests.
My apologies i mistook you for Wally. It is quite difficult to tell the difference between you when you might as well be reading from a script, so nondescript and indistinguishable are your views. It is like you and Gandalf with this slavish adherence to Asparagus of Arsewipe. You both seem to have to check with him to see what your opinions are. I mean I know it is 2020 but the only other people i know who are that obsessed with Youtubers are my grandsons, and they are both under 10. NutsQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongWell that was a poor choice for you to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Have I though? Where have I cited The Sun....go on, I'll wait. As for "The Califonina Public Policy Centre" I've Googled that and literally all I have found is 1) Public Policy Institute of California - is an independent, nonpartisan, non-profit research institution. Based in San Francisco, California, the institute was established in 1994 with a $70 million endowment from William Redington Hewlett of Hewlett-Packard. and 2) California Policy Center - is a public policy think tank located in California. The organization specializes in union policy, pension reform, spending reform, and school choice. CPC's stated mission is "to secure a more prosperous future for all Californians." CPC was founded in 2010 by Marc Bucher and Edward Ring. It is a member of the State Policy Network, an association of state-based conservative and libertarian think tanks. So either you have fucked up the name OR made it up completely. I will assume from CPC's stance on Unions and School choice you mean them and in which case I'd ask why you would FORCE someone to join a union and why you'd keep a child from going to the best school for them? And since you're back to ignoring questions completely I won't hold my breath for a rational response.....oh and you seem SO nice when you post these, not angry at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
You don't seem to know who Hillary Clinton is or Joe Biden....curious. Donald Trump has never been a life long "party" man ergo his difficulties in the primary and underdog status when elected...oh and no worries he'll be re-elected quite easily. Capitalists by nature cannot be "totalitarian" it's an exchange based on free will, money for goods and services. The "Totalitarian" portions such as Apple for example having their phones made in sweatshops with suicide netting, that's down to CHINA's government and their labor laws. Apple is an international corporation and they're obviously taking advantage of those loose labor laws in other nations. If you think that's bad I'd suggest you never buy a chocolate bar ever again or an electric car or a pair of Nike's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
What "fantasy delusion" is that? Well if Trump doesn't care about the country he's got a strange way of showing it. I notice you didn't respond to my questions to you....a return to form. How coincidental. There IS a right/left choice....want me to prove it to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
What happens to the NHS under a Tory government vs a Labour government? What happens to benefits? Were YOU not on here lamenting how Tories were selling everyone out? Tories were trying to be like Trump?......Was that you or was that someone else?
None of the outlets you referenced are "Mainstream media" 0, none, nada, zilch, zero.....mainstream media would be NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, NYT, Washington Post, etc. The closest you'd have is Fox News and when do I reference them? Maybe Tucker Carlson, but that's about it.
Back to you spaz
I am not asking you to explain your views because they are just batshit crazy reactionary tantrums, not even coherent thoughts. It doesn't matter how corrupt the Clintons are, I have never and would never support them. We do not all live in polarised brat camps as perpetual teenagers funnily enough. Meanwhile you jumped on the bandwagon of somebody no less corrupt who is dragging your country through the mire. Is that supposed to prove how independent of thought you are? ;D You are following Mike TV around with your tongue hanging out and you think it is all a joke. :-\
Ohh look a nice apology....Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Oh look that makes that "apology" ring rather hollow doesn't it. "Oh I can't tell you apart" ....maybe that's YOUR problem, you do have a lot of them. And so you admit they aren't mainstream media? Wow looks like you just want to be angry and hostile to someone, looks like it's my lucky day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
I'm sure there's quite a lot that you don't find "coherent"....not my problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
I am not angry, don't have the problems you are projecting and while you may think i am hostile, I am just not beating around the bush, so that is your problem for being so hypersensitive. And no I don't admit that they are not mainstream media because a conversation or a debate on a forum, is not simply a case of winning an argument. You are here all day everyday and you still bark at the door like a dog instead of dropping you daft pretentious act. You can't seriously be still defending Trump ? You can't seriously be pretending that that the 'Media' is all one big left wing conspiracy and you and your alt right thumb suckers are still the victims, while Mussolini with a Toupee has been at the table for some time now?Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongOhh look a nice apology....Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Oh look that makes that "apology" ring rather hollow doesn't it. "Oh I can't tell you apart" ....maybe that's YOUR problem, you do have a lot of them. And so you admit they aren't mainstream media? Wow looks like you just want to be angry and hostile to someone, looks like it's my lucky day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
I'm sure there's quite a lot that you don't find "coherent"....not my problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Sure thing. I don't care if you offer a different opinion from me, plenty of posters do, but they can converse without losing their minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
If you don't admit they aren't mainstream then I guess we had best find a definition of mainstream and work from there if you're up for it, but here's the problem I'll offer that up and you'll tell me to pound sand in response.
What does Trump need to be attacked for? Tell me. The media attacks him for everything under the sun from the Steele dossier to feeding fish wrongly in Japan. What is YOUR beef with him? Maybe a policy I like you might not....if so, tough shit.
Mussolini was a SOCIALIST!
[1] See SPN Members for more.
Although SPN's member organizations claim to be nonpartisan and independent, the Center for Media and Democracy's in-depth investigation, "EXPOSED: The State Policy Network -- The Powerful Right-Wing Network Helping to Hijack State Politics and Government," reveals that SPN and its member think tanks are major drivers of the right-wing, American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC)-backed corporate agenda in state houses nationwide, with deep ties to the Koch brothers and the national right-wing network of funders.[2]
In response to CMD's report, SPN Executive Director Tracie Sharp told national and statehouse reporters that SPN affiliates are "fiercely independent." Later the same week, however, The New Yorker's Jane Mayer caught Sharp in a contradiction. In her article, "Is IKEA the New Model for the Conservative Movement?," the Pulitzer-nominated reporter revealed that, in a recent meeting behind closed doors with the heads of SPN affiliates around the country, Sharp "compared the organization’s model to that of the giant global chain IKEA." She reportedly said that SPN "would provide 'the raw materials,' along with the 'services' needed to assemble the products. Rather than acting like passive customers who buy finished products, she wanted each state group to show the enterprise and creativity needed to assemble the parts in their home states. 'Pick what you need,' she said, 'and customize it for what works best for you.'" Not only that, but Sharp "also acknowledged privately to the members that the organization's often anonymous donors frequently shape the agenda. 'The grants are driven by donor intent,' she told the gathered think-tank heads. She added that, often, 'the donors have a very specific idea of what they want to happen.'"[3]
A set of coordinated fundraising proposals obtained and released by The Guardian in early December 2013 confirm many of these SPN members' intent to change state laws and policies, referring to "advancing model legislation" and "candidate briefings." These activities "arguably cross the line into lobbying," The Guardian notes.[4] [/I]
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.ph..._Policy_Center
So yeah, a bunch of guys who draw their salaries from right wing anti union billionaires don't like unions. Assuming your household earns sixty thousand a year which is roughly the median household income you're about one point six million out of pocket over the last forty years due to enough fucking idiots being fed bullshit like this to cause them to vote against their economic interests.[/QUOTE]
My apologies i mistook you for Wally. It is quite difficult to tell the difference between you when you might as well be reading from a script, so nondescript and indistinguishable are your views. It is like you and Gandalf with this slavish adherence to Asparagus of Arsewipe. You both seem to have to check with him to see what your opinions are. I mean I know it is 2020 but the only other people i know who are that obsessed with Youtubers are my grandsons, and they are both under 10. NutsQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongWell that was a poor choice for you to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Have I though? Where have I cited The Sun....go on, I'll wait. As for "The Califonina Public Policy Centre" I've Googled that and literally all I have found is 1) Public Policy Institute of California - is an independent, nonpartisan, non-profit research institution. Based in San Francisco, California, the institute was established in 1994 with a $70 million endowment from William Redington Hewlett of Hewlett-Packard. and 2) California Policy Center - is a public policy think tank located in California. The organization specializes in union policy, pension reform, spending reform, and school choice. CPC's stated mission is "to secure a more prosperous future for all Californians." CPC was founded in 2010 by Marc Bucher and Edward Ring. It is a member of the State Policy Network, an association of state-based conservative and libertarian think tanks. So either you have fucked up the name OR made it up completely. I will assume from CPC's stance on Unions and School choice you mean them and in which case I'd ask why you would FORCE someone to join a union and why you'd keep a child from going to the best school for them? And since you're back to ignoring questions completely I won't hold my breath for a rational response.....oh and you seem SO nice when you post these, not angry at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
You don't seem to know who Hillary Clinton is or Joe Biden....curious. Donald Trump has never been a life long "party" man ergo his difficulties in the primary and underdog status when elected...oh and no worries he'll be re-elected quite easily. Capitalists by nature cannot be "totalitarian" it's an exchange based on free will, money for goods and services. The "Totalitarian" portions such as Apple for example having their phones made in sweatshops with suicide netting, that's down to CHINA's government and their labor laws. Apple is an international corporation and they're obviously taking advantage of those loose labor laws in other nations. If you think that's bad I'd suggest you never buy a chocolate bar ever again or an electric car or a pair of Nike's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
What "fantasy delusion" is that? Well if Trump doesn't care about the country he's got a strange way of showing it. I notice you didn't respond to my questions to you....a return to form. How coincidental. There IS a right/left choice....want me to prove it to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
What happens to the NHS under a Tory government vs a Labour government? What happens to benefits? Were YOU not on here lamenting how Tories were selling everyone out? Tories were trying to be like Trump?......Was that you or was that someone else?
None of the outlets you referenced are "Mainstream media" 0, none, nada, zilch, zero.....mainstream media would be NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, NYT, Washington Post, etc. The closest you'd have is Fox News and when do I reference them? Maybe Tucker Carlson, but that's about it.
Back to you spaz
I am not asking you to explain your views because they are just batshit crazy reactionary tantrums, not even coherent thoughts. It doesn't matter how corrupt the Clintons are, I have never and would never support them. We do not all live in polarised brat camps as perpetual teenagers funnily enough. Meanwhile you jumped on the bandwagon of somebody no less corrupt who is dragging your country through the mire. Is that supposed to prove how independent of thought you are? ;D You are following Mike TV around with your tongue hanging out and you think it is all a joke. :-\[/QUOTE]
Yo. Why are you bringing me into this?
Yes, I think Sargon makes interesting content, but the notion that good content cannot come from a You Tuber is asinine. You have the mainstream spilling propaganda constantly and as you saw with Peterson, they get owned by the smarter You Tuber types out there.
Give me an Akkad video over Owen Jones wanking away in The Guardian yet again with puff opinion pieces that people always disagree with. How on earth do they even get these jobs? Their opinions are often dafter than a fox dressed as a clown breakdancing.
My bit is at the end of that mess. I couldn't post with all that content as I am on a phone and snipped a bit and just threw it out. Nazi's everywhere. I blame @walrus.
Where am I constantly posting Owen Jones thouhj? Only in your head Gandalf. Neither of have your own opinion on anything. It's just repeated fluff from preachy hypocrites like Peterson and embarrassing hipsters like Arogant of Sad or whatever he is called.
Yeah, but you are basically Owen Jones with more of a strut and a tattoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Anyway, I listen to people I like and dislike whence reading that horrible recent Jones article, whence reading the Independent on their pro Eu crusade etc. I listen to all sides and make my own conclusions on topics.
Nobody can tell me how to think. You know full well that I think Peterson has been foolish getting into heavy benzo addiction when he has all the knowledge, you know full well I disagree with Akkad that a woman's role is to breed, but there is plenty I will agree on too, especially on cultism in the modern left. I really do still consider myself pretty left wing, but only on an economic level and only with self responsibility proviso's. To a certain degree I will of course agree with Jones on Oligarchs and wealth inequality too, but thin he is a prat when he goes on about fascists.
It is no either/or with me. I am my own person and watch all kinds of content and have my own views. You have this serious issue with Lyle liking Trump, but you know full well I have my good and bad days with Trump. Do I think he has been genuinely different? Well, a better leader than Bush so far, but really just a continuing tax cutter for the wealthy and too obsessed with the stock market which is fake.
How on earth is Sargon a hipster? Don't they have those piercings, tattoo's, gadgets, beanie hats, and goatee beards? They are usually lefty open border Cultural Marxist types with empty heads filled with buzzwords. You rarely encounter a sensible hipster.