Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by Chris N.
Poor Bilbo. It can be a pain in the a** to get your point across when there going on besides the point. By the way I bet that you could keep dishing out more analogies as long as you want to. :)
And Ice, no offense bro, but it's just the principle that he's explaining through the analogy. ;) A great man in his own time would most likely be a great man if not a greater man in our own time.
Given the means that today's fighter have, coupled with his athletisism, and good use of technical boxing knowledge he would have brought a lot too the ring. I think given the means he could do well in any era, as well as today.
Like other great fighters before him he built upon the foundations of expertise that preceded him. If he was to make full use of today's resources I believe with all my understanding that he'd excell in today's day and age, even if he was the other era's of Dempsey, Marciano, Liston, Ali, and so forth he would be able draw from all the knowledge of that day.
It's just common sense really. ;)
Thanks bro have a :coolclick:.
Sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall trying to explain things to these young'uns but at least one person understood what I was saying.
It's interesting that Nat Fleischer the founder of Ring magazine and who had a chance to see not only Jack Johnson fight live but also all the greats upto and including Ali rated Jack Johnson as the greatest of them all ;)
Agreed its so hard to explain things to you oldies ;D
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
Whatever era youre talking about the difference is cameras are better now thats the big change. Pretty little else has in techniques or conditioning ,science has but the application to use it hasnt. Today men arnt as tougth as then the biggest killer now is heart attacks not battle feilds. I defy anybody to convince me that the human neurosystem has improved. Jack Johnson was a fucking great fighter, no what youre looking at. So was Gene Tunney they had to be they were hard times which bread hard men. They had savy they had wits they didnt have central heating and computers.
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
With some exceptions there are less men today with the savvy and expertise that you could find before. More so the charactor of men.
Before when I was getting interested in boxing I focused exclusively on learning the techniques, and looking for more and more to expand upon. Right now I've come to the point that the techniques by themselves are meaningless, I've found that there's a lot more to boxing than that. What I think it's important the history, what they've gone through, their battles and far they' had to go to in order to get there. Boxing has never been easy, but it has never been any harder than days surrounding Johnson and other past greats. I can only imagine what they drew upon to fire up their souls for such great challenges.
I remember in Joe Gans for instance fighting in blistering heat, struggling through unimaginable pain and fatigue, holding up against consumption (TB), puking blood through the ropes, holding his own against a great game fighter and through a miracle in human spirit winning through 15 miserable rounds, but even with all that heart, all that great boxing expertise he'd go down fighting until the point that the consumption was too overwhelming for any man to handle. His skin was was a pale grey as any dieing man, but the fight inside him was alive and strong as we can hardly imagine. Courage, bravery, perseverance, you couldn't ask for a greater man. And there were many other great fighters as well, all had there own hard fought challenges.
Now if a fighter of today could just feel a tiny bit of what great challenges even if it's just by imagination then there maybe no limit on how far they may really push themselves. I believe that's more important than all the training, techniques, boxing manuals and bag of tricks in the boxing. It's the full experience and feeling and understanding those who came before us.
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'm a big Jack Johnson fan and reckon he could win this. He did struggle to get motivated for fights though.
A motivated Johnson would have been trouble for any fighter in history imo.
Even Larry Holmes said that he felt the only fighter in history who he would have struggled to beat was Jack Johnson.
larry has to realize--he cant hold ali's jockstrap--he could have struggled to beat Jack--which i believe he could beat johnson. but he could never beat ali--ali would make him look bad..
i also think tunney would win against johnson by an sd
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by undefeated
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'm a big Jack Johnson fan and reckon he could win this. He did struggle to get motivated for fights though.
A motivated Johnson would have been trouble for any fighter in history imo.
Even Larry Holmes said that he felt the only fighter in history who he would have struggled to beat was Jack Johnson.
larry has to realize--he cant hold ali's jockstrap--he could have struggled to beat Jack--which i believe he could beat johnson. but he could never beat ali--ali would make him look bad..
i also think tunney would win against johnson by an sd
Holmes did beat Ali ;)
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by undefeated
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'm a big Jack Johnson fan and reckon he could win this. He did struggle to get motivated for fights though.
A motivated Johnson would have been trouble for any fighter in history imo.
Even Larry Holmes said that he felt the only fighter in history who he would have struggled to beat was Jack Johnson.
larry has to realize--he cant hold ali's jockstrap--he could have struggled to beat Jack--which i believe he could beat johnson. but he could never beat ali--ali would make him look bad..
i also think tunney would win against johnson by an sd
What ?? thats just silly Holmes would of give Ali a very tough fight Ali struggled with alot lesser fighters than Holmes and a Holmes on form would give Ali a very tough fight Ali isn't unbeatable.
Well your the same guy who had Norton winning the Holmes fight so ;D
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
He was definately a fine specimen for that era.
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by undefeated
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'm a big Jack Johnson fan and reckon he could win this. He did struggle to get motivated for fights though.
A motivated Johnson would have been trouble for any fighter in history imo.
Even Larry Holmes said that he felt the only fighter in history who he would have struggled to beat was Jack Johnson.
larry has to realize--he cant hold ali's jockstrap--he could have struggled to beat Jack--which i believe he could beat johnson. but he could never beat ali--ali would make him look bad..
i also think tunney would win against johnson by an sd
What ?? thats just silly Holmes would of give Ali a very tough fight Ali struggled with alot lesser fighters than Holmes and a Holmes on form would give Ali a very tough fight Ali isn't unbeatable.
Well your the same guy who had Norton winning the Holmes fight so ;D
hey--holmes is a legend, an all time great......but if holmes believes he coulda beat a 1964-1975 ali, he is surly wrong. holmes has the best jab in boxing history, but ali is an overall better fighter, hes quicker ,better footwork and a bit more accurate, not 2 take anything away from holmes-i think holmes could beat any other great just not ali--
i think a 60's ali was unbeatable---he would run circles around holmes win by a UD. would win 3 of 3 against holmes
a 70's ali who was not the same fighter after coming outta retirement---would win by a sd --would win 2 of 3 against holmes.
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by undefeated
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by undefeated
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'm a big Jack Johnson fan and reckon he could win this. He did struggle to get motivated for fights though.
A motivated Johnson would have been trouble for any fighter in history imo.
Even Larry Holmes said that he felt the only fighter in history who he would have struggled to beat was Jack Johnson.
larry has to realize--he cant hold ali's jockstrap--he could have struggled to beat Jack--which i believe he could beat johnson. but he could never beat ali--ali would make him look bad..
i also think tunney would win against johnson by an sd
What ?? thats just silly Holmes would of give Ali a very tough fight Ali struggled with alot lesser fighters than Holmes and a Holmes on form would give Ali a very tough fight Ali isn't unbeatable.
Well your the same guy who had Norton winning the Holmes fight so ;D
hey--holmes is a legend, an all time great......but if holmes believes he coulda beat a 1964-1975 ali, he is surly wrong. holmes has the best jab in boxing history, but ali is an overall better fighter, hes quicker ,better footwork and a bit more accurate, not 2 take anything away from holmes-i think holmes could beat any other great just not ali--
i think a 60's ali was unbeatable---he would run circles around holmes win by a UD. would win 3 of 3 against holmes
a 70's ali who was not the same fighter after coming outta retirement---would win by a sd --would win 2 of 3 against holmes.
Your not talking about same Ali that got sd against Doug Jones and was dropped by Cooper and almost koed and he was near enough at his peak im not saying Holmes would win but he would give Ali alot of trouble.
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
What ?? he would have to completey change his style because i've seen his fights and style he had you actually think he would get away with that in modern boxing ?? he would get beaten to a pulp and now your saying he would be 3 inches taller ?? no lets say he was born with same parents in same era as modern greats with his old style which is dated yes very dated just say he was taught different way how can you know for sure that he would be more affective im not saying im completey right either but what im saying how can you know for sure ??
I'll say it again, if Gallieleo had been born in 1940 he wouldn't need to put away his 16 th century telescope he would never have had a 16 th century telescope! He would have spent his entire career dealing with modern telescopes!
Your comparing this to boxing ?? thats completey different and you know it.
Ice,Im pointing it out for the third time now
Johnson was between 6'1" and 6'3"
In comparison Marciano was 5'10",and Tyson was 5'11",and Holmes was 6'3"
So how would Johnson have been too small?
It isn't about height its about build... He wasn't built like the guys have been from the 60's-90's.
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
Jackson was overrated compared to Tunney who was superior than him. Who did Jack Johnson fight? A couple of puny farm boys?
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
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Originally Posted by Taeth
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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
What ?? he would have to completey change his style because i've seen his fights and style he had you actually think he would get away with that in modern boxing ?? he would get beaten to a pulp and now your saying he would be 3 inches taller ?? no lets say he was born with same parents in same era as modern greats with his old style which is dated yes very dated just say he was taught different way how can you know for sure that he would be more affective im not saying im completey right either but what im saying how can you know for sure ??
I'll say it again, if Gallieleo had been born in 1940 he wouldn't need to put away his 16 th century telescope he would never have had a 16 th century telescope! He would have spent his entire career dealing with modern telescopes!
Your comparing this to boxing ?? thats completey different and you know it.
Ice,Im pointing it out for the third time now
Johnson was between 6'1" and 6'3"
In comparison Marciano was 5'10",and Tyson was 5'11",and Holmes was 6'3"
So how would Johnson have been too small?
It isn't about height its about build... He wasn't built like the guys have been from the 60's-90's.
???
Jack Johnson has long been touted as one of the finest physical specimens ever to step into the ring, have you been smoking something?
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
What ?? he would have to completey change his style because i've seen his fights and style he had you actually think he would get away with that in modern boxing ?? he would get beaten to a pulp and now your saying he would be 3 inches taller ?? no lets say he was born with same parents in same era as modern greats with his old style which is dated yes very dated just say he was taught different way how can you know for sure that he would be more affective im not saying im completey right either but what im saying how can you know for sure ??
I'll say it again, if Gallieleo had been born in 1940 he wouldn't need to put away his 16 th century telescope he would never have had a 16 th century telescope! He would have spent his entire career dealing with modern telescopes!
Your comparing this to boxing ?? thats completey different and you know it.
Ice,Im pointing it out for the third time now
Johnson was between 6'1" and 6'3"
In comparison Marciano was 5'10",and Tyson was 5'11",and Holmes was 6'3"
So how would Johnson have been too small?
It isn't about height its about build... He wasn't built like the guys have been from the 60's-90's.
Ummmm sahib,you might want to page through the thread a little further and look at the pic of Johnson I posted.
Even using turning of the century training techniques the guy was built like a freaking Sherman Tank
With todays techniques hed be unreal
Re: Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Jackson was overrated compared to Tunney who was superior than him. Who did Jack Johnson fight? A couple of puny farm boys?
He beat almost everybody of his time...do some homework first
