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I have to agree with JT on this post:
1st of all ICE you are a hypocrite, 2nd of all your are admitting to the world you are a liar,then you say its Bruces fault cause he didnt pick up on it Huh that means you are CHEATER and a no good dirty little lying sack
ICE,so you lie in your debates? Just to prove a point?! That really is lame bro.
Uhh no you don't get it im not discussing this with you because me and JT already sorted this just look back and your see this got sorted.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
I told little white lie in debate with Bruce i don't lie in other debates just look back and see what Bilbo typed your understand.
Anyway im leaving for a while so don't expect a reply too soon if you reply to what i just said.
I just don't understand your reasoning here at all Gamo ??? Why talk of it as lying and hypocrisy?Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
We are debating, a question gets set and we have to take one side or the other. Truth, honour and integrity have absolutely nothing to do with it.
Take my own debate with Rain. I'm in the position of having to defend the flyweight division and argue that it's more exciting than the current heavyweight scene.
Now any longtime poster on Saddo's knows only too well what I have had to say about those little child men in the past!
Still that's the task I have been set and so I will do my best to present my case. Am I lying or presenting untruth's in my arguments, NOT AT ALL! Everything I have said so far is accurate. I am just looking at the debate from the other side, and presenting evidence accordingly.
If you ever did debating at school you would know that that's exactly how they teach it. They will divide you into groups and set a topic for debate. They will then tell you which side you are debating, you don't get the choice. Sometimes they will actually set the task of everybody HAVING to debate and argue in favour of the side with which they may disagree.
Why do they do this?
Because it's crucial for a well rounded approach to life to be able to see things from more than one angle. In order to truly understand a viewpoint you have to have experienced seeing through those eyes so to speak.
You couldn't do it now because schools and the politcal correct brigade are too touchy but I remember at school debating things such as the existence of God and also whether we were right to have a Monarchy.
We had to argue the case for whatever we DIDN'T believe.
This was so we attempt to see things from other people's viewpoints. It's actually a very healthy thing to do.
JT accuses me and ICE of being hypocrites and liars but I don't see it like that whatsoever. We are just both able and willing to attempt to view things from the other side of the fence. It means we are open minded and are not dogmatically opposed to looking at information or facts that conflict with what we already believe.
If you really understood about being truly open minded and able to take on board all sides of an argument then we wouldn't be having this conversation. :)
Because it's crucial for a well rounded approach to life to be able to see things from more than one angle. In order to truly understand a viewpoint you have to have experienced seeing through those eyes so to speak
You couldn't do it now because schools and the politcal correct brigade are too touchy but I remember at school debating things such as the existence of God and also whether we were right to have a Monarchy.
Bilbo that has nothing to do with it, and I am gonna pose my debate question on the main board.... I wasnt gonna beat a dead horse, that is not debating.
If I was to go first in the debate and picked Diaconu, and Daxx agreed, I would not be doing an endzone dance in jumping in his S*** for agreeing with me.... Thats borederline retarded ::**
So when someones starts a topic in the main board and I agree with my fellow posters I should Fuktardedly go back and edit my posts to debate something I agree just so I can be a self proclaimed champion poster like you??? Yea cause thats alot of fun.
I was an original guy on this idea of bringing this MMWC to a competition and my thoughts were for it to be like business as usual just like we do everyday.. Now according to you its a cut throat debating shark tank that forces us to against what we truly believe just to win a debate.... NO THANKS!!!!
And then you try to feed us a line of horseshit, that your topic of comparing flyweight division and argue that it's more exciting than the current heavyweight scene.    like its some cross bearing scourge for you to make a debate about this. You have to compare a mediocre division with an exciting one!!!! I had to debate over who was the best prospect in the LH division and since I was an agreement I am some quitter, like I said dude whatever....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
OH hell JT you are here I am here judges are here lets pick a new topic and debate now...we will mark the belt as vacant...winner is champion....IMO we can musyer up 3 judges ASAP and to be fair we will leave ICB and Bilbo out so what do ya say?..Then we can get past this and you go first this time deal?
Ah so now you're saying this debating competition shouldn't actually involve competition at all. ::**Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
The object of the debating competition is to out debate your opponent, and the ONLY way you can out debate someone is by presenting a counter argument to their own argument.
How could you possibly think this was not competitive and involved trying to beat your opponent? ???
It's just a fun competition that you're taking waaaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously.
If you just want put forward your views in a non combative enviroment then stick to the forums, but for those of us who are being good sports and trying to play the game according to the rules you're just sounding like a sore loser.
And furthermore you're sorry ass exit from the competition just because Daxx beat you to choosing Diaconu, perlease!
I can't believe how you think this is some kind of set in stone statement of fact that Dioconu is the hottest prospect around and there are no possible alternatives ::**
So what your basically saying is that it's predestined for Diaconu to go on to be a world beater in this division and nothing or nobody can alter this preordained from eternity fact?
What are you going to say if when he meets Chad Dawson and Dawson knocks him out? How stupid will you look then?
There are a bunch of young up and comers and tough veterans in EVERY division. Any one of them could go on to do better than Diaconu.
Look at Edison Miranda! Last year he was the hottest prospect at 160, people couldn't get enough of him. Now where is he? Starting a new career at 168 lbs after being unceremoniously booted out of the middleweight division by Kelly Pavlik who gave him a right good kicking!
Diaconu may be a dead cert to stardom in YOUR EYES but a look at his record reveals one recognisable name, and that is Rico Hoye, most famous for being a Clinton Woods KO victim.
Who are the great and glorious names on his record that would lead you to believe his ascendency to the throne of light heavyweight stardom is inevitable?
He's only ever fought two undefeated opponents in his career and they were 2-0 and 4-0 respectively although one is now 6-12 and the other 4-5-1.
At only 5 ft 9 he doesn't possess much height for the division, and at 30 years of age he's 5 years OLDER than Dawson, and you tell me that Dawson can't be a prospect? ???
So why do you consider Dawson a non prospect but the much older veteran Diaconu a hot prospect?
Because Dawson is a champion?
So what you are telling me is that because Chad Dawson has a win over Tomasz Adamek his record is now too good to be considered a prospect whilst Diaconu hasn't beaten a single fighter of merit yet and so is clearly the hottest prospect in the division ::**
There were dozens of angles and ways you could have approached this debate, without compromising your puritanical integrity and moral highground.
You could have just had some fun with it, and enjoyed to trying to out fox Daxx by providing an effective critique of Diaconu.
Just some of the points I would have raised.
No big name opponents, possibly a padded record? Look at his wins, no undefeated fighters and all of his opponents were beaten better by other names, Bika, Bute, Green etc
Only 5 ft 9 is very small for the division
Anyway like you say whatever bro, it was obviously too hard a question for you to answer and to attempt to have done so would have been to compromise your values and clean living so probably best to stick to posting on the main board only and leave this competition to the hypocritical liars, cheats and reprobates like ICE and myself to enjoy. :)
Ah so now you're saying this debating competition shouldn't actually involve competition at all. ::**
The object of the debating competition is to out debate your opponent, and the ONLY way you can out debate someone is by presenting a counter argument to their own argument.
How could you possibly think this was not competitive and involved trying to beat your opponent? ???
It's just a fun competition that you're taking waaaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously.
If you just want put forward your views in a non combative enviroment then stick to the forums, but for those of us who are being good sports and trying to play the game according to the rules you're just sounding like a sore loser.
And furthermore you're sorry a** exit from the competition just because Daxx beat you to choosing Diaconu, perlease!
I can't believe how you think this is some kind of set in stone statement of fact that Dioconu is the hottest prospect around and there are no possible alternatives ::**
So what your basically saying is that it's predestined for Diaconu to go on to be a world beater in this division and nothing or nobody can alter this preordained from eternity fact?
What are you going to say if when he meets Chad Dawson and Dawson knocks him out? How stupid will you look then?
There are a bunch of young up and comers and tough veterans in EVERY division. Any one of them could go on to do better than Diaconu.
Look at Edison Miranda! Last year he was the hottest prospect at 160, people couldn't get enough of him. Now where is he? Starting a new career at 168 lbs after being unceremoniously booted out of the middleweight division by Kelly Pavlik who gave him a right good kicking!
Diaconu may be a dead cert to stardom in YOUR EYES but a look at his record reveals one recognisable name, and that is Rico Hoye, most famous for being a Clinton Woods KO victim.
Who are the great and glorious names on his record that would lead you to believe his ascendency to the throne of light heavyweight stardom is inevitable?
He's only ever fought two undefeated opponents in his career and they were 2-0 and 4-0 respectively although one is now 6-12 and the other 4-5-1.
At only 5 ft 9 he doesn't possess much height for the division, and at 30 years of age he's 5 years OLDER than Dawson, and you tell me that Dawson can't be a prospect? ???
So why do you consider Dawson a non prospect but the much older veteran Diaconu a hot prospect?
Because Dawson is a champion?
So what you are telling me is that because Chad Dawson has a win over Tomasz Adamek his record is now too good to be considered a prospect whilst Diaconu hasn't beaten a single fighter of merit yet and so is clearly the hottest prospect in the division ::**
There were dozens of angles and ways you could have approached this debate, without compromising your puritanical integrity and moral highground.
You could have just had some fun with it, and enjoyed to trying to out fox Daxx by providing an effective critique of Diaconu.
Just some of the points I would have raised.
No big name opponents, possibly a padded record? Look at his wins, no undefeated fighters and all of his opponents were beaten better by other names, Bika, Bute, Green etc
Only 5 ft 9 is very small for the division
Anyway like you say whatever bro, it was obviously too hard a question for you to answer and to attempt to have done so would have been to compromise your values and clean living so probably best to stick to posting on the main board only and leave this competition to the hypocritical liars, cheats and reprobates like ICE and myself to enjoy. :)
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Reguardless if Hoye was on AD's record or not I still would have picked him.....
The guy is 24-0 like I said he has one bad thing against him..AGE but again like I stated in todays divisions 29 is still a Baby...
What impresses me most about Diaconu is his record is not padded and he has not been rushed...Plus a few other things you already answered....
He has a solid team around him..They put him in with Kenny Bowman in his 8th or 9th bout..Bowman was 31-4 at the time...Sure Bowman can not be mistaken for world class but had a ton of experience...He had also been in with better comp then Adrian...It let his tream know where he stood and where they needed improvement...After that they decided to slow it down a bit let him build mentally with the confidence he had beaten a veteran the adjusted as they went along...
Not to mention the fact he was in and beat Andre Thysse another guy who has experience with better opp
Again like you stated his opp had lost to some good fighters..fighters that they with out a doubt learned from and used to their advantage...In Adrians fights with them he picked up on a few things I am sure....
You stated it best about Miranda being blown out by Kelly after being all the rage and sent to the 168lb division..his team believed he was better then what he was and they allowed that to happen...they should have known from the loss to Abraham Miranda needed more work and failed to scout Pavlik correctly before agreeing to the bout....Diaconu and his team are building slowly and not rushing things so when the time comes he will be 100% prepared...Keep learning from the guys that have been in with the world beaters and you will pick up on things all day long
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Reguardless if Hoye was on AD's record or not I still would have picked him.....
The guy is 24-0 like I said he has one bad thing against him..AGE but again like I stated in todays divisions 29 is still a Baby...
What impresses me most about Diaconu is his record is not padded and he has not been rushed...Plus a few other things you already answered....
He has a solid team around him..They put him in with Kenny Bowman in his 8th or 9th bout..Bowman was 31-4 at the time...Sure Bowman can not be mistaken for world class but had a ton of experience...He had also been in with better comp then Adrian...It let his tream know where he stood and where they needed improvement...After that they decided to slow it down a bit let him build mentally with the confidence he had beaten a veteran the adjusted as they went along...
Not to mention the fact he was in and beat Andre Thysse another guy who has experience with better opp
Again like you stated his opp had lost to some good fighters..fighters that they with out a doubt learned from and used to their advantage...In Adrians fights with them he picked up on a few things I am sure....
You stated it best about Miranda being blown out by Kelly after being all the rage and sent to the 168lb division..his team believed he was better then what he was and they allowed that to happen...they should have known from the loss to Abraham Miranda needed more work and failed to scout Pavlik correctly before agreeing to the bout....Diaconu and his team are building slowly and not rushing things so when the time comes he will be 100% prepared...Keep learning from the guys that have been in with the world beaters and you will pick up on things all day long
[/quote]
Erm ok so you're debating me now? ??? Ok whatever I'll go with it. :D
You paint an incredibly rosy picture regarding his record. It's funny how when a guy like say Sergio Mora fights a guy after unbeaten prospects have already beaten him he's labelled a bum and is clearly fighting no hopers, but in Diaconu's case put him in with a guy like Andre Thysse who had already lost
to Brian Magee, Marcus Beyer, Mikkel Kessler, Juuergen Braehmer and Lucian Bute he's a fighter whose clearly learned from those losses and so is a decent test for Diaconu ???
The kind of opponents Diaconu has been in with are 'opponents' nothing more. Just journeyman fighters who know their way around the ring enough not to get KO'd early and know their way around the business well enough not to jeopordise their 'popular trial horse' tag and actually try to win.
With the exception of Rico Hoye all of his opponents were walkovers for a decent prospect. Before Hoye he fought Rivera, Thysse and Heyman whose recent records are dire to say the least. Riveria's last 4 bouts 1-3, Thysse 0-4, Heyman 1-3.
Like I say jobbers.
As for Diaconu, at 30 years of age, only 5ft 9 and being an Eastern European born fighter his statistics don't look particularly impressive to me.
Apart from the suprise demolition of Rico Hoye Diaconu has never really produced that kind of power punching form before. And if we go on recent Eastern European examples history would be against him also.
We recently saw a highly touted super middleweight prospect make his Showtime debut. Victor Oganov coming in with an incredible record of 25-0 25 KO's. Sadly his big break ended with him being broken up by a fringe contender at best in Fulgencio Zuniga, derailed before he had barely set out from his destination.
Who is to suggest that Diaconu could not suffer the same fate when put in with a real live opponent?
For me I'd rather look for a 'prospect' from among those fighters who have proven themselves against decent opposition. Taking a gamble that this guy, unlike Oganov, unlike Miranda, unlike Andrade, unlike Rey Bautista, unlike Brian Viloria, unlike Carlos Quintana and unlike Joel Julio may actually be one of those prospects that really breaks through is not my style.
When I want to invest trust (or money) in something I need to see concrete evidence that what I'm investing in has the goods and has already shown REAL evidence of producing.
Looking at the division right now I'd say that recent super middleweight contender Danny Green has the tools do something in this division. Yes I know he's older at 34 and yes I know he has losses but we also know that he's got a proven chin, frightening power and has a wealth of experience and has grown as a fighter.
His losses have both been to world champions, one of whom he should have soundly beaten but for the disqualification. Although he started too late in the rematch with Beyer when he finally decided to abandon his boxing and go for broke he almost had Beyer out of there again.
He's a better fighter now, and is at his natural weight class finally.
Against the current crop of champions in the division Green's power and pressure could really tell over 12 rounds. With Bernard Hopkins almost certainly not fighting at 175 lbs again the champions consist of Tarver, Dawson and little known Zolt Erdi.
Green will get his shot against Tarver on Decemeber 1st and for me is a real live underdog in this fight.
Tarver looked mediocre in despatching Elvir Muriqi and Green is a big step above him.
It's entirely possible that Greens workrate and power will have Tarver fading down the stretch.
In a fight between Diaconu and Danny Green right now, I'd pick Danny Green, a proven chin against world class opposition and 22 KO's in 24 wins Green would be the smart money pick in a fight between the two imo.
Well rainman without the mathskills, those above mentioned guys are Supermiddles not lightheavies... If we were talking all supermiddles they would be in the convo but they are not are they???Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
So again you arm chair boxrec commando ;D we never see eye to eye unless it is killing rabid possesed babies :P
Yup you are indeed correct. All of the light heavyweight Diaconu's top rated 'opponent's were beaten up by SMALLER MEN. He's padded his record by fighting little guys who shouldn't even be in the weight class anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Great way to argue your point there big guy, probably best for you that you quit when you did :lolhaha:
What did you say? Boxrec is your homepage? thats what I thought. humana humanahQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
It's an all too common event when a lesser man has run out of ideas and has nothing constructive to say that he resorts to personal jibes and petty putdowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
You are the Zab Judah of debators, good against the no hopers but step up in class and you look for a way to get yourself disqualified.
:thumb:
Nice. To all debaters out there. That's what's called delivering the death blow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Thanks VD, I'm doing well it seems whupping both the heavyweight and former lightheavyweight champs on the same night 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise