Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Once again injuries in other sports or not done to the head, and the brain being one of the few parts in the body with no nerve endings doesn't feel anything, so a boxer is less likely to know they have brain trauma, then a basketball player knows they have a sprained ankle or bad knees.
As for the example of the rubber around the elevator, of course it would lesson the blow if you had the rubber around hte elevator, the potential energy convert into kinetic energy due to gravity as the elevator goes down, with the rubber around the outside a lot of that kinetic energy is absorbed into the elastic energy of the rubber.
Its like dropping an egg in a box onto a foam mat, or onto hard ground. When its dropped onto hard ground, there is nothing else that absorbs the blow, and the egg breaks, but when you drop on the foam, even though the egg is moving independently of the box, it is far less likely to break because of the absorbtion of the foam that neutralizes the normal force that is otherwise placed on the egg by the floor.
Another example is a car, the cars nowadays crumple more easily than cars back in the day, and wearing a helmet and using sparring gloves is like using a modern day car, the glove has extra padding which acts like rubber and absorbs part of the power, and the helmet isn't made of metal, it absorbs part of the blow, if this weren't so people would go down as often as they do in a pro fight, but they don't because the head trauma is lessened. You can argue that won't help them in the long run, but per punch its much less damage being done to the head.
There is also the nature of amateur boxing which is more like point sparring in that boxers only need to land cleanly on their opponent opposed to landing hard. Most boxers in the amateurs if not all boxers tend to not follow through as much in an amateur fight because they would rather get their hands back into defensive position to avoid being counter punched more so than in the pros. Also as soon as a fighter looks hurt in the amateurs usually a standing 8 count is called whereas in boxing they will allow you to get hit the point you go down or you can't defend yourself. This is the main argument why MMA is safer for you because, your either stopped or your in good enough shape to continue, only in boxing are you allowed to recover and keep going, its then that you do the most damage to your brain.
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
So basically the old rules of boxing would be better physically for the fighters?
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Which rules? From what I've seen of Robinson fight, I am surprised he lived as long as he did, and he was known as one of the more defensive fighters in that era, but he virtually had no defense compared to what fighters have nowadays.
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Before the Queensberry Rules were adopted the Broughton or London Prize Rules were used they had different views on rounds. A round today is 3 minutes a round under the old rules it was whenever someone was knocked down...they had 30 seconds to rest and 8 seconds to "come to scratch"....scratch being the chalk line in the middle of the ring much like the walk forward command today's refs give to a fighter who has just been knocked down.
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
:boxing: :stars: :drool:
This thread is
doing my head in
:thinking2:
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
hey there is boxin here tonight
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holmcall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holmcall
Normally, one trauma will not do it. An accumulation will, however. And sparring is one of the primaru causes of brain damage with boxers.
Actually in studies one punch in a pro fight is the equivalent of about 16 or 17 in sparring and amateur fighting. In fact because sparring and amateurs use a different type of glove, and the fighters don't tend to sit down on their punches in fact they don't do the same permanent damage that punches that you receive in a pro fight. Sparring and amateur fighting generally only causes swelling which will heal in about 3 months, but pro fights will actually cause tears in the brain that are permanent damage.
Maybe;maybe not. I know too many guys who have told me their condition was caused by too many rounds in the Gym. I do, however, agree, that punches in a pro fight are the heaviest. Also, the number of amature fights can play into this. But for me, it's all about accumulative punishment over a period of time. Bowe was well on the way and then Golata super-charged his journey. Bobby Chacon's last 7 fights were against stiff competition and he won each pretty easily as I recall. Then, several years later, the dreaded PD set in. There are many other whom I just as soon not mention. At any rate, I have done a lot of research on this stuff and always walk away from it in horror. It's a one way street for which there is no way out, as the brain cells eventually liquify in the end and the victim is the put on life support and then he dies. Just plain awful.
Everyday we all make choices, the question is when it comes to boxing, would any 18 or 19 year old male care what is LIKELY to happen to them when they are 40 or 50 IF in the meantime they can be millionaires, travel the world, be famous and adored by everyone.... I don't know many who would turn that down for a peaceful golden years.
Having said that, I think there should be time/age limits to boxing.. for one thing when they get too old, it's just boring to watch! There must be a prime boxing age... where the bouts are fast and exciting... before or after that point is not all that interesting.
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holmcall
Ben Davidson. God I really liked him annd the rest of those guys. Otis was from the UNIVERSITY OF MARS!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah he was lol...Tell you what...I would not have wanted to be the guy standing across from him on the line while he was all pumped up staring me down......6'4" 275 lbs with a bad attitude......
Ben Davidson at 6'8" and 280lbs just a few guys away did not help lol...
Mean Mofos
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DC Amateur Boxing
Had a related discussion recently and regarding the no headgear - There was a university running a study at the Ringside Tournament regarding headgear and injury. They had boxers (over 18 yrs old) where headgear fitted with a monitoring device. I have to get the name of the university because I can't remember which one it was. The goal was to collect data for improving the protection of the boxers. I personally am ok with the headgear, but I really don't think it stops any trauma. I'm no doctor or scientist (sorry for stating the obvious), but I don't see how headgear really helps lesson the impact of a blow to the head. It's my understanding that the injurious effect of a blow is the brain jogging against the skull inside of the protective fluid that surrounds the brain after sudden movement. When the head is hit and moved violently in different directions, the skull may change directions faster and independent of the brain (because the brain is floating in the fluid). Think of a person in a falling elevator. If the elevator stops or changes direction quickly, what happens to the people inside? Would they be less injured if the elevator was wrapped in a 10 foot-thick layer of rubber? I don't think so.
I found this study that supports my two cents:
Boxing Damages Brain Despite Headgear Protection - Demential pugilistica does not only occur in career boxers, as previously thought; it can also affect amateur boxers - Softpedia and this reference to it:
Risking it in the ring - Los Angeles Times. I also found another that said headgear lessons the impact, but it was done in conjunction with USAB, so what else would you expect. It's funny that every study or opinion that says there isn't significant injury comes from a person or group affiliated with boxing with the exception of the BMA that produced this
Amateur boxing and risk of chronic traumatic brain injury: systematic review of observational studies -- Loosemore et al., 10.1136/bmj.39342.690220.55 -- BMJ which concluded that there is no strong evidence to associate chronic traumatic brain injury with amateur boxing.
There's no doubt we are involved in a very dangerous sport, but so is football, soccer and cheerleading. I for one am all for any improvement made in the rules to help protect boxers. Unfortunately and fortunately for some - most of that responsibility falls on the coaches. To me nothing is more important than protecting boxers - mine and others.
I did find it interesting though how other sports compare, but boxing is at the top of the list per 1,000
Naysi Sport Scene: Sports Injuries Documented but it is the hardest sport
ESPN.com: Page 2 - Sport Skills Difficulty Rankings
Good post. as is the whole thread. Just a comment on your elevator analogy, cushioning the blow DOES save on impact, it's why cars have crumble zones and it's down to the impulse equation. At one point beginning of last century race cars were built like tanks in the thought that if the car survived, then so would the person, how wrong were they. Rubber around a lift would help (just as bungee rope is made from elastic and not chains) but of course it's all relative, you'd need a huge amount of cushion to survive a lift fall of 20 storeys.
On boxing, gloves and headgear don't really help for the reasons stated, they encourage people to hit harder, and PD seems to be caused more by the number of shots taken rather than the guy with a glass jaw getting KO'd all the time. Also (as already mentioned) the added weight of the gloves adds to the momentum, so the effects could come close to cancelling (don't know myself as I haven't read the details on the research.).
Anyway, thought provoking thread, I will be working extra hard on defence this week.
P.S. I remember reading that Ingle's Sheffield gym would spar mainly with body shots, and rarely go at it hard with head shots. Getting used to being hit is essential for boxing so that you're not caught surprised during fight time, however it has to be within reason, getting hit repeatedly WILL NOT help your resistance and gym's who promote that attitude are foolish IMO.
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I am reading this book by a neurologist, and he is saying that boxing absolutely a no-no in terms of what it does to your brain... obviously. However I would like to raise the fact that boxing takes it biggest toll on the brain long after you quit doing it. It does lasting damage to the hippocampus and cerebellum which is why it is likely to cause Alzheimers and Parkinsons.
So I am bringing this up because people criticized in particular Freddie Roach for what he has said about the health of certain fighters, but I think while reading this book that I am not going to continue sparring for one, but also guys like Hopkins might be wise to leave the sport asap. Regardless of how hard it is to hit Hopkins he has been fighting pro for 20 years, most of it at the top level of the sport where guys hit harder, and do more damage. I am really worried for guys I admire like him, Holyfield, and other guys like Margarito who are really going to suffer in their late 40's and 50's. All pro fighters suffer multiple times the brain damage an average person does, and even guys like Leonard who have escaped rather unscathed have far less intellectual capacity than they would have, had they not put on a pair of gloves. I feel these are important things for people in boxing to know, and it seems avoided way too much.
Source?
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bomp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DC Amateur Boxing
Had a related discussion recently and regarding the no headgear - There was a university running a study at the Ringside Tournament regarding headgear and injury. They had boxers (over 18 yrs old) where headgear fitted with a monitoring device. I have to get the name of the university because I can't remember which one it was. The goal was to collect data for improving the protection of the boxers. I personally am ok with the headgear, but I really don't think it stops any trauma. I'm no doctor or scientist (sorry for stating the obvious), but I don't see how headgear really helps lesson the impact of a blow to the head. It's my understanding that the injurious effect of a blow is the brain jogging against the skull inside of the protective fluid that surrounds the brain after sudden movement. When the head is hit and moved violently in different directions, the skull may change directions faster and independent of the brain (because the brain is floating in the fluid). Think of a person in a falling elevator. If the elevator stops or changes direction quickly, what happens to the people inside? Would they be less injured if the elevator was wrapped in a 10 foot-thick layer of rubber? I don't think so.
I found this study that supports my two cents:
Boxing Damages Brain Despite Headgear Protection - Demential pugilistica does not only occur in career boxers, as previously thought; it can also affect amateur boxers - Softpedia and this reference to it:
Risking it in the ring - Los Angeles Times. I also found another that said headgear lessons the impact, but it was done in conjunction with USAB, so what else would you expect. It's funny that every study or opinion that says there isn't significant injury comes from a person or group affiliated with boxing with the exception of the BMA that produced this
Amateur boxing and risk of chronic traumatic brain injury: systematic review of observational studies -- Loosemore et al., 10.1136/bmj.39342.690220.55 -- BMJ which concluded that there is no strong evidence to associate chronic traumatic brain injury with amateur boxing.
There's no doubt we are involved in a very dangerous sport, but so is football, soccer and cheerleading. I for one am all for any improvement made in the rules to help protect boxers. Unfortunately and fortunately for some - most of that responsibility falls on the coaches. To me nothing is more important than protecting boxers - mine and others.
I did find it interesting though how other sports compare, but boxing is at the top of the list per 1,000
Naysi Sport Scene: Sports Injuries Documented but it is the hardest sport
ESPN.com: Page 2 - Sport Skills Difficulty Rankings
Good post. as is the whole thread. Just a comment on your elevator analogy, cushioning the blow DOES save on impact, it's why cars have crumble zones and it's down to the impulse equation. At one point beginning of last century race cars were built like tanks in the thought that if the car survived, then so would the person, how wrong were they. Rubber around a lift would help (just as bungee rope is made from elastic and not chains) but of course it's all relative, you'd need a huge amount of cushion to survive a lift fall of 20 storeys.
On boxing, gloves and headgear don't really help for the reasons stated, they encourage people to hit harder, and PD seems to be caused more by the number of shots taken rather than the guy with a glass jaw getting KO'd all the time. Also (as already mentioned) the added weight of the gloves adds to the momentum, so the effects could come close to cancelling (don't know myself as I haven't read the details on the research.).
Anyway, thought provoking thread, I will be working extra hard on defence this week.
P.S. I remember reading that Ingle's Sheffield gym would spar mainly with body shots, and rarely go at it hard with head shots. Getting used to being hit is essential for boxing so that you're not caught surprised during fight time, however it has to be within reason, getting hit repeatedly WILL NOT help your resistance and gym's who promote that attitude are foolish IMO.
One thing I would like either changed or abolished is Reyes glove,if you hear the phrase "punchers glove" your actually hearing the phrase "concussion looking for a place to happen"
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
I was listening to a Bernard Hopkins interview on the radio and he talked in depth about how he fought the boxing establishment for years until and how he became financially successful. Anyhow, at one point the deejay asked him 'With all the fights that you have had, how in the world have you kept your brain intact?' Bernard's answer was a simple one . . .'To all the young boxers out there, forget about punching or combos or any of that. . .the best lesson that I learned and can give is to learn how to duck.' He went on the say that he was serious, learning how to avoid punches was very important for him and is the only reason that he has been able to fight and still retain his intelligence into his 40's.
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I am reading this book by a neurologist, and he is saying that boxing absolutely a no-no in terms of what it does to your brain... obviously. However I would like to raise the fact that boxing takes it biggest toll on the brain long after you quit doing it. It does lasting damage to the hippocampus and cerebellum which is why it is likely to cause Alzheimers and Parkinsons.
So I am bringing this up because people criticized in particular Freddie Roach for what he has said about the health of certain fighters, but I think while reading this book that I am not going to continue sparring for one, but also guys like Hopkins might be wise to leave the sport asap. Regardless of how hard it is to hit Hopkins he has been fighting pro for 20 years, most of it at the top level of the sport where guys hit harder, and do more damage. I am really worried for guys I admire like him, Holyfield, and other guys like Margarito who are really going to suffer in their late 40's and 50's. All pro fighters suffer multiple times the brain damage an average person does, and even guys like Leonard who have escaped rather unscathed have far less intellectual capacity than they would have, had they not put on a pair of gloves. I feel these are important things for people in boxing to know, and it seems avoided way too much.
While its not good for you it does not effect every great fighter that takes a lot of punishment like this. Jake La Motta probably is the only man with a better chin than Margarito but last I saw of him he still seemed quite "with it".
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
To some degree it happens to most fighters. Not always does it lead to severe problems, but IMO its not worth dumbing yourself down for anything... except maybe booze.
So what I hear you saying is -
if you're killing brain cells via whiskey or tequila, then it's okay.
but if you're doing it for sport or money, then it's not?
Okay, I know I'm a new poster and you aren't, but what a crock!
Yes, the risks are serious and need to be considered, but to make a statement to that effect and follow it up with such a piece of fluff astounds me...
YMMV
Re: Boxing and brain damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Yeah hang out with my arthritis and tell me that
You're going to compare some joint pain to not being able to dress yourself? Dont be so foolish
Speaking as someone who HAS arthritis (and has never boxed), that is not a foolish comparison at all. Joint pain can lead to the same list of inabilities in daily life. There are some days where I can barely stand or walk because my hip will not allow me to.
Yes, there are medications that we can take to assist with the pain and there are joint replacement surgeries, so there are options that do not exist with brain damage.
But there is also the chance of having an active, creative brain trapped in a body that no longer functions as it should, leading to frustration or even depression. And like brain damage, it only worsens over time. Even the pain mediications and surgeries are only temporary measures.
