Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TysonBomb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?
Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.
Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.
And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!
Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.
P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.
And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."
Fenster,
Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.
You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.
How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.
Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.
I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.
Roy had about 8 titles when Dariusz had the lineal title and the WBO strap
8>2
Virgil Hill never beat Spinks for the lineal title, hence the chain of succession was broken and restarted with Hill winning that title in an elimination bout. Dariusz beat Hill for the linear title by decision. Roy then beat Hill in a more convincing, spectacular fashion via KO.
Roy Jones Jr. was the man at LHW.
Roy had belts that Michalczewski had already won and discarded or been stripped of through politics. He didn't lose them in the ring.
When a lineage is broken it only gets restarted when the universally recognised no.1 and 2 meet.
Hill (WBA champ) and Maske (IBF) unified to establish THE man at 175 (they were recognised as the top two in the division). The WBC champion was Fabrice Tiozzo who Hill had already beat. Roy hadn't even fought in the division at this point.
Hill beat Maske to become THE man. He then lost to Michalczewski who was stripped/chucked the WBA and IBF titles. The titles were now utterly irrelevant because a CLEAR champion was established.
A hundred alaphbet titles don't mean shit compared with lineage. It's the only pure way of having a true champion, regardless of whether or not people think he's the best in the division.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TysonBomb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?
Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.
Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.
And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!
Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.
P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.
And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."
Fenster,
Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.
You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.
How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.
Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.
I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.
Roy had about 8 titles when Dariusz had the lineal title and the WBO strap
8>2
Virgil Hill never beat Spinks for the lineal title, hence the chain of succession was broken and restarted with Hill winning that title in an elimination bout. Dariusz beat Hill for the linear title by decision. Roy then beat Hill in a more convincing, spectacular fashion via KO.
Roy Jones Jr. was the man at LHW.
Roy had belts that Michalczewski had already won and discarded or been stripped of through politics. He didn't lose them in the ring.
When a lineage is broken it only gets restarted when the universally recognised no.1 and 2 meet.
Hill (WBA champ) and Maske (IBF) unified to establish THE man at 175 (they were recognised as the top two in the division). The WBC champion was Fabrice Tiozzo who Hill had already beat. Roy hadn't even fought in the division at this point.
Hill beat Maske to become THE man. He then lost to Michalczewski who was stripped/chucked the WBA and IBF titles. The titles were now utterly irrelevant because a CLEAR champion was established.
A hundred alaphbet titles don't mean shit compared with lineage. It's the only pure way of having a true champion, regardless of whether or not people think he's the best in the division.
The lineal title is really no different from these "alphabet" titles IMO
Especially when its not really even lineal ... the line of succession had already been broken.
Having the most titles at a certain weight class makes you "the champ" not just having the lineal title, and Roy had more of them than Dariusz. Dariusz also never had the WBC title and he never held them all at once, despite whatever politics there were at the time.
This is how I rank it:
Undisputed champion - having all of the major titles and belts in a division.
Unified champion - having multiple titles and belts in a division.
Titlist - having a title. It would be an "ABC title" (major world title such as WBA, WBC, IBF or WBO of course) as you put it or the linear title.
All of them fall under the "world champion" category.
Lets not forget that there are even versions of the lineal title ... Roy was the champion for The Ring magazine which is also a lineal title.
So who was the true champion from 2002 - 2003? RJJ who had won "the Ring" lineal championship in the same fashion that Michalczewski did, along with 7 other titles ... or Michalczewski who held the "lineal title" and the WBO title??
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I agree with you.
But this is a forum for boxing nerds (;D). Where else is this shit gonna get discussed
Truth be told, up until you told me, I had no idea he was the linear champ all that time ;D I had to look it up and fact check it haha.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TysonBomb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?
Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.
Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.
And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!
Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.
P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.
And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."
Fenster,
Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.
You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.
How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.
Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.
I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.
Roy had about 8 titles when Dariusz had the lineal title and the WBO strap
8>2
Virgil Hill never beat Spinks for the lineal title, hence the chain of succession was broken and restarted with Hill winning that title in an elimination bout. Dariusz beat Hill for the linear title by decision. Roy then beat Hill in a more convincing, spectacular fashion via KO.
Roy Jones Jr. was the man at LHW.
Roy had belts
that Michalczewski had already won and discarded or been stripped of through politics. He didn't lose them in the ring.
What belts were those?
When a lineage is broken it only gets restarted when the universally recognised no.1 and 2 meet.
Another crock of shit. There is no such thing as lineal in this era or Roys because there are no undisputed champions.
Hill (WBA champ) and Maske (IBF) unified to establish THE man at 175 (they were recognised as the top two in the division). The WBC champion was Fabrice Tiozzo who Hill had already beat.
Roy hadn't even fought in the division at this point.
Then why chastise him?
Hill beat Maske to become THE man. He then lost to Michalczewski who was stripped/chucked the WBA and IBF titles. The titles were now utterly irrelevant because a CLEAR champion was established.
How can these titles both be relevant and not relevant at the same time?
A hundred alaphbet titles don't mean shit compared with lineage. It's the only pure way of having a true champion, regardless of whether or not people think he's the best in the division.
This lineage you speak of is a myth directly and indirectly. One of the biggest crocks in modern day boxing.
And you actually said that.
Yes thats right. I commented inside the quote and was told my post was to short.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TysonBomb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?
Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.
Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.
And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!
Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.
P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.
And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."
Fenster,
Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.
You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.
How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.
Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.
I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.
Roy had about 8 titles when Dariusz had the lineal title and the WBO strap
8>2
Virgil Hill never beat Spinks for the lineal title, hence the chain of succession was broken and restarted with Hill winning that title in an elimination bout. Dariusz beat Hill for the linear title by decision. Roy then beat Hill in a more convincing, spectacular fashion via KO.
Roy Jones Jr. was the man at LHW.
Roy had belts
that Michalczewski had already won and discarded or been stripped of through politics. He didn't lose them in the ring.
What belts were those?
When a lineage is broken it only gets restarted when the universally recognised no.1 and 2 meet.
Another crock of shit. There is no such thing as lineal in this era or Roys because there are no undisputed champions.
Hill (WBA champ) and Maske (IBF) unified to establish THE man at 175 (they were recognised as the top two in the division). The WBC champion was Fabrice Tiozzo who Hill had already beat.
Roy hadn't even fought in the division at this point.
Then why chastise him?
Hill beat Maske to become THE man. He then lost to Michalczewski who was stripped/chucked the WBA and IBF titles. The titles were now utterly irrelevant because a CLEAR champion was established.
How can these titles both be relevant and not relevant at the same time?
A hundred alaphbet titles don't mean shit compared with lineage. It's the only pure way of having a true champion, regardless of whether or not people think he's the best in the division.
This lineage you speak of is a myth directly and indirectly. One of the biggest crocks in modern day boxing.
And you actually said that.
Yes thats right. I commented inside the quote and was told my post was to short.
There were TWO lineal champions in from 2002-2003 in the LHW division
Roy was "The Ring lineal champion" who beat the guy who didn't beat the lineal champion before him and "Michalczewski " was the "lineal champion" who beat the guy that didn't beat the lineal champ before him.
Its more ridiculous than the two WBA champions today.
The only real, true champion of a division is the undisputed champion with all of the major titles. That is the highest level of champion. The closest to that today is Wladimir Klitschko who has all but 1 (or 2 if you include the title that Povetkin has) of the major titles.
To put it short, whoever has the most belts is the "champion" of the division ... regardless if he is the "lineal champion."
Funny enough Roy was listed as the "undisputed champion" from 1999-2002 at LHW
List of undisputed boxing champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yet he didn't have any lineal title until 2002.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TysonBomb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TysonBomb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?
Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.
Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.
And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!
Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.
P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.
And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."
Fenster,
Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.
You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.
How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.
Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.
I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.
Roy had about 8 titles when Dariusz had the lineal title and the WBO strap
8>2
Virgil Hill never beat Spinks for the lineal title, hence the chain of succession was broken and restarted with Hill winning that title in an elimination bout. Dariusz beat Hill for the linear title by decision. Roy then beat Hill in a more convincing, spectacular fashion via KO.
Roy Jones Jr. was the man at LHW.
Roy had belts
that Michalczewski had already won and discarded or been stripped of through politics. He didn't lose them in the ring.
What belts were those?
When a lineage is broken it only gets restarted when the universally recognised no.1 and 2 meet.
Another crock of shit. There is no such thing as lineal in this era or Roys because there are no undisputed champions.
Hill (WBA champ) and Maske (IBF) unified to establish THE man at 175 (they were recognised as the top two in the division). The WBC champion was Fabrice Tiozzo who Hill had already beat.
Roy hadn't even fought in the division at this point.
Then why chastise him?
Hill beat Maske to become THE man. He then lost to Michalczewski who was stripped/chucked the WBA and IBF titles. The titles were now utterly irrelevant because a CLEAR champion was established.
How can these titles both be relevant and not relevant at the same time?
A hundred alaphbet titles don't mean shit compared with lineage. It's the only pure way of having a true champion, regardless of whether or not people think he's the best in the division.
This lineage you speak of is a myth directly and indirectly. One of the biggest crocks in modern day boxing.
And you actually said that.
Yes thats right. I commented inside the quote and was told my post was to short.
There were TWO lineal champions in from 2002-2003 in the LHW division
Roy was "The Ring lineal champion" who beat the guy who didn't beat the lineal champion before him and "Michalczewski " was the "lineal champion" who beat the guy that didn't beat the lineal champ before him.
Its more ridiculous than the two WBA champions today.
The only real, true champion of a division is the undisputed champion with all of the major titles. That is the highest level of champion. The closest to that today is Wladimir Klitschko who has all but 1 (or 2 if you include the title that Povetkin has) of the major titles.
To put it short, whoever has the most belts is the "champion" of the division ... regardless if he is the "lineal champion."
Funny enough Roy was listed as the "undisputed champion" from 1999-2002 at LHW
List of undisputed boxing champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yet he didn't have any lineal title until 2002.
Lineal.Lunar. Same thing. Paper trail.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
PS- Roy would have kicked his ass.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Darius Michalczewski was the WBA, IBF and WBO champion. He didn't LOSE the WBA or IBF titles in the ring. He discarded them, which then means the organisations make the title vacant.
The IBF ordered Darrin Allen-vs-William Guthrie for the vacant title. Guthrie won, then lost it to Reggie Johnson who Roy later beat.
The WBA ordered Eddy Smulders-vs-Lou Del Valle for the vacant title. Del Valle won and Roy later beat him.
So how would Roy have won those belts if Michalczewski decided to keep them or had not been stripped? Roy would have to beat him.
Once you establish yourself as THE man in a division you can only lose that accolade by actually losing in the ring. It's common for unified champions to dump or be stripped of belts (check - Barrera, Lewis, Kostya etc), it doesn't take away from their already established position as THE man in the division.
Each organisation has their own set of rules and rankings, which mean different contenders, politics, and they all want paying sanctioning fees.
@IamInuit
Quote:
There is no such thing as lineal in this era or Roys because there are no undisputed champions.
You can establish THE man in a division, it's just harder to trace because of the sanctioning bodies confusing things, and especially confusing fans.
Off the top of my head check out - Lewis, Hopkins, Barrera, Tyszu, Marquez, Pac, Floyd, Calzaghe, Naz etc.. you can trace the lineage of some of these fighters going back decades and others established themselves as THE universally recognised champion of a division.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
We need so many belts because it's much easier to sell a fight when a belt is on the line. If you're telling people it's for a world championship then that sells the fight to a lot of people/TV viewers. It helps build fighters too. It helps the sanctioning bodies because they make money from every belt, it helps the promoters sell fights and build the popularity and revenue-producing capability of fighters, so there are a lot of bodies and belts.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
We need so many belts because it's much easier to sell a fight when a belt is on the line. If you're telling people it's for a world championship then that sells the fight to a lot of people/TV viewers. It helps build fighters too. It helps the sanctioning bodies because they make money from every belt, it helps the promoters sell fights and build the popularity and revenue-producing capability of fighters, so there are a lot of bodies and belts.
Keeps alot of people in jobs then.
First and foremost boxing is a business.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN F
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
The difference between pac and floyd is purely boxing.
Pac has to fight marquez 4 times over a period of so many years and still cant win a clear decison over an old fighter.
There is no need for floyd to fight marquez ever again as it was so clear the domination.
If its close again, its the leg cramp excuse.
Pac ducks bradley to fight an old marquez..boxing stinks.
True, But Pacquiao smashed Cotto, De La Hoya, Hatton and Mosley whom gave Floyd fits in the ring.
