Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Let's start with one of the top, otherwise it would take too long to post and too long to scrutinize on your end. Since Muhammad Ali is generally thought of as the best heavyweight of all time, which is boxing's most glamerous division, it's fitting that we begin with him.
Ali's body of work (feel free to add to it, if I failed to list a notable opponent): - Archie Moore
- Sonny Liston - beat him twice
- Floyd Patterson
- Ernie Terrell
- George Chuvalo
- Henry Cooper
- Karl Mildenberger
- Oscar Bonavena
- Ron Lyle
- Bob Foster
- Joe Frazier - beat him twice, lost once
- Ken Norton - beat him twice, lost once
- George Foreman
- Ron Lyle
- Earnie Shavers
- Leon Spinks
- Buster Mathis
- Jimmy Ellis
- Cleveland Williams
Considering that he beat Liston, Norton and Frazier twice, that makes 22 notable wins. Of course, some are much better than others, but we're talking body of work so I included a bunch. He also lost to Larry Holmes, Leon Spinks, Trever Berbick, Ken Norton, and Joe Frazier.
He was a world champion at heavyweight three different times.
He also competed (arguably) in the deepest era for heavyweights of all time.
Six of his opponents went on to be inducted into the Hall of Fame, which makes 11 wins over Hall of Fame boxers. Foreman, Liston, Frazier, and Norton are typically thought of in the top 25 heavyweights of all-time.
How Floyd's body of work compares favorably with Ali's?
The following are a number of ways I think we analzye it, at the very least a good starting point.
How about first we list Floyd's best 22 opponents?
How do Floyd's best wins compare with Ali's best wins, such as Liston, Frazier, Foreman and Norton?
Then let's compare Ali's era of heavyweights with Floyd's era of welterweights/junior welterweights/lightweights.
Next, although it is impossible to be sure, let's talk about how many wins Floyd has over future/current Hall of Fame boxers.
After that, how about we consider how deep Floyd's era of welterweights/junior welterweights/lightweights etc. compares with Ali's era of heavyweights? In other words, since boxing's beginning, where would you rank the last decade of those divisions historically.
In the divisions he's campaigned in, how many wins does Floyd have over top 25 guys? For example, at lightweight how many wins does he have over boxers who rank in the top 25 of all time? etc.
Last, with Floyd's top victories, where would you rank the opponents on the list of all-time fighters in those divisions. Would you rank Diego Corrales with the best of all-time at junior lightweight. Is Castillo in the top of the division at lightweight? Cotto at junior middleweight? Hatton at welterweight?
I figure that's a good starting point. Of course, I'm open to other suggestions on how to compare them, as I'm sure I've missed a few.
Thanks for the discussion!
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Nooo, I'm not saying Floyd's body of work doesn't compare to other great fighters. I think the majority of boxing fans HIGHLY over rate the resumes of top guys from the past.
As boxing fans, the minute we started SERIOUSLY following the sport, we had certain "truths" nailed into our heads. The fact that Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest ever, that guys like Benny Leonard, Hank Armstrong, Willie Pep, Charley Burley, ect were these mythical legends beyond reproach, who would toy with our pathetic modern pugilists. That unless you weighed between 147-160lbs in the 80s, fought as a HW in the 70s, ect, you were in a "weak" era full of bums and have no business in the conversation on the "true" greats. I know, because I spent years regurgitating this nonsense like everyone else. It's bullshit. I know this is bullshit because whenever I ask someone regurgitating it, "hey, what made (insert legend here) so great", I get no response. People conveniently skip over my post or try to change the topic. He's great because... well, because he just is. Because I was told he is.
I've had people admit this to me on here, when I asked how they ranked a guy who they've NEVER seen fight and have never heard of 98% of his opponents over a guy like Mayweather, Sweet Pea or Leonard, who's greatness can be witnesses with a simple Youtube search. "Well people who knew, like old trainers and fighters said he was great." So basically we're ranking these guys on newspaper clippings and hearsay. People say Willie Pep is the greatest defensive guy because he won a round without throwing a punch apparently. All we have is the newspaper clippings. Imagine is Roy Jones fought in the early 1900's and all we had was newspaper clippings. "JONES DAZZLES, KO'S OPPONENT WITH HANDS BEHIND BACK". "JONES MOVES UP AND TAKES HW CROWN WITH EASE". He'd be considered the greatest of all time. If that was so, you guys would be clowning me here, saying "You think Floyd is the greatest?? Roy Jones won titles from Middleweight to HW, he was knocking guys out with his hands behind his back, you're insane."
Start challenging your own beliefs and look at the resumes of past fighters under the same criteria you guys use to slam guys like Floyd and Wladimir Klitschko.
As far as the 1 vs 1 comparison with Duran, Floyd never challenged for the MW title, but he also never quit because of a tummy ache during a title fight, he never got starched out in 2 rounds (and he fought plenty of guys that could starch guys quick), he never came to a fight out of shape and he never let his weight get out of control to the point where he had to fight guys in weight classes he had no business fighting at. I'll take Floyd over Duran any day of the week.
Good post. It's amazing how modern fans can't understand the difference between watching and reading about fights.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Rantcatrat, imagine mayweathers opponents all being heavyweights.
What is your end goal here.?
Imagine hatton as a 6,3 heavyweight with desructive bodyshots and cotto a mini mike tyson weighing over 220lbs.
Lets talk about the title pound for pound and what that means.
If floyd was any weight at any era he would beat every opponent.
Thats what the majority of people say not just the average mayweather fan.
I thinks its the fact that there hasnt been enough castillo fights (when floyd was injured) that people judge that the opponents need to be compared to other great fighters who havent had it so easy.
@imp - I have no beef with Mayweather. He's done incredible in boxing. He's had a tremendous career.
He's clearly an all-time great that should be ranked highly. @Beanflicker and I don't disagree on that point. We disagree on how highly he should be ranked and we are just comparing Mayweather's body of work in his boxing career to other greats.
To your points, I'm not sure Mayweather would beat every top welterweight of yesteryear, but he beats some without a doubt, and I absolutely agree that he's in every fight.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Rantcatrat, imagine mayweathers opponents all being heavyweights.
What is your end goal here.?
Imagine hatton as a 6,3 heavyweight with desructive bodyshots and cotto a mini mike tyson weighing over 220lbs.
Lets talk about the title pound for pound and what that means.
If floyd was any weight at any era he would beat every opponent.
Thats what the majority of people say not just the average mayweather fan.
I thinks its the fact that there hasnt been enough castillo fights (when floyd was injured) that people judge that the opponents need to be compared to other great fighters who havent had it so easy.
@
imp - I have no beef with Mayweather. He's done incredible in boxing. He's had a tremendous career.
He's clearly an all-time great that should be ranked highly. @
Beanflicker and I don't disagree on that point. We disagree on how highly he should be ranked and we are just comparing Mayweather's body of work in his boxing career to other greats.
To your points, I'm not sure Mayweather would beat every top welterweight of yesteryear, but he beats some without a doubt, and I absolutely agree that he's in every fight.
What welterweights would you put in front of him and why?
I am aware other great boxers exist apart from mayweather but the great positive floyd gives his opponents is frustration.
He's like a fly you cant swat.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Rantcatrat, imagine mayweathers opponents all being heavyweights.
What is your end goal here.?
Imagine hatton as a 6,3 heavyweight with desructive bodyshots and cotto a mini mike tyson weighing over 220lbs.
Lets talk about the title pound for pound and what that means.
If floyd was any weight at any era he would beat every opponent.
Thats what the majority of people say not just the average mayweather fan.
I thinks its the fact that there hasnt been enough castillo fights (when floyd was injured) that people judge that the opponents need to be compared to other great fighters who havent had it so easy.
@
imp - I have no beef with Mayweather. He's done incredible in boxing. He's had a tremendous career.
He's clearly an all-time great that should be ranked highly. @
Beanflicker and I don't disagree on that point. We disagree on how highly he should be ranked and we are just comparing Mayweather's body of work in his boxing career to other greats.
To your points, I'm not sure Mayweather would beat every top welterweight of yesteryear, but he beats some without a doubt, and I absolutely agree that he's in every fight.
What welterweights would you put in front of him and why?
I am aware other great boxers exist apart from mayweather but the great positive floyd gives his opponents is frustration.
He's like a fly you cant swat.
I'm only gonna use fighters I saw fight when they were active. Fighters I saw on tape or read about are not included..
I think Thomas Hearns, Donald Curry, Pernell Whitaker, Ike Quartey, Wilfred BenÃtez and Mark Breland would beat Mayweather at 147. Benitez and Whitaker were better defensively. Hearns, Quartey and Breland would beat him with the jab alone.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Nooo, I'm not saying Floyd's body of work doesn't compare to other great fighters. I think the majority of boxing fans HIGHLY over rate the resumes of top guys from the past.
As boxing fans, the minute we started SERIOUSLY following the sport, we had certain "truths" nailed into our heads. The fact that Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest ever, that guys like Benny Leonard, Hank Armstrong, Willie Pep, Charley Burley, ect were these mythical legends beyond reproach, who would toy with our pathetic modern pugilists. That unless you weighed between 147-160lbs in the 80s, fought as a HW in the 70s, ect, you were in a "weak" era full of bums and have no business in the conversation on the "true" greats. I know, because I spent years regurgitating this nonsense like everyone else. It's bullshit. I know this is bullshit because whenever I ask someone regurgitating it, "hey, what made (insert legend here) so great", I get no response. People conveniently skip over my post or try to change the topic. He's great because... well, because he just is. Because I was told he is.
I've had people admit this to me on here, when I asked how they ranked a guy who they've NEVER seen fight and have never heard of 98% of his opponents over a guy like Mayweather, Sweet Pea or Leonard, who's greatness can be witnesses with a simple Youtube search. "Well people who knew, like old trainers and fighters said he was great." So basically we're ranking these guys on newspaper clippings and hearsay. People say Willie Pep is the greatest defensive guy because he won a round without throwing a punch apparently. All we have is the newspaper clippings. Imagine is Roy Jones fought in the early 1900's and all we had was newspaper clippings. "JONES DAZZLES, KO'S OPPONENT WITH HANDS BEHIND BACK". "JONES MOVES UP AND TAKES HW CROWN WITH EASE". He'd be considered the greatest of all time. If that was so, you guys would be clowning me here, saying "You think Floyd is the greatest?? Roy Jones won titles from Middleweight to HW, he was knocking guys out with his hands behind his back, you're insane."
Start challenging your own beliefs and look at the resumes of past fighters under the same criteria you guys use to slam guys like Floyd and Wladimir Klitschko.
As far as the 1 vs 1 comparison with Duran, Floyd never challenged for the MW title, but he also never quit because of a tummy ache during a title fight, he never got starched out in 2 rounds (and he fought plenty of guys that could starch guys quick), he never came to a fight out of shape and he never let his weight get out of control to the point where he had to fight guys in weight classes he had no business fighting at. I'll take Floyd over Duran any day of the week.
Good post. It's amazing how modern fans can't understand the difference between watching and reading about fights.
And its amazing to me how modern fans discount history holding onto the belief that boxing started in 1990.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
I'll take VD's lead for argument sake and present a list that imo causes problems for Floyd based on what I have seen. I'll keep it to the original 8 to narrow it down as 130 and 140 would only increase it.
I defend the man as much as anyone and I don't really like him but this myopic claim that he is the Goat is just to much. Roy Jones is the greatest fighter that I have ever seen not Floyd Mayweather.
126
Sanchez
Arguello
Olivares
Gomez
Hamed
Mab
Lopez
Nelson
Pedrosa
135
Buchanon
Ramos
Duran
De Jesus
Shane
Whitaker
Comacho
147
Napoles
Benitez
Palomino
Hearns
Leonard
Wright
Breland
Duran
Quartey
Forrest
Shane
Whitaker
Curry
Haugen
Taylor
Vargas. The one that beat Ike and Winky.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
I'll take VD's lead for argument sake and present a list that imo causes problems for Floyd based on what I have seen. I'll keep it to the original 8 to narrow it down as 130 and 140 would only increase it.
I defend the man as much as anyone and I don't really like him but this myopic claim that he is the Goat is just to much. Roy Jones is the greatest fighter that I have ever seen not Floyd Mayweather.
126
Sanchez
Arguello
Olivares
Gomez
Hamed
Mab
Lopez
Nelson
Pedrosa
135
Buchanon
Ramos
Duran
De Jesus
Shane
Whitaker
Comacho
147
Napoles
Benitez
Palomino
Hearns
Leonard
Wright
Breland
Duran
Quartey
Forrest
Shane
Whitaker
Curry
Haugen
Taylor
Vargas. The one that beat Ike and Winky.
Floyd beats the ones in blue. He embarrasses the ones in red. The others I think either beat him or have a good chance of beating him
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
I'll take VD's lead for argument sake and present a list that imo causes problems for Floyd based on what I have seen. I'll keep it to the original 8 to narrow it down as 130 and 140 would only increase it.
I defend the man as much as anyone and I don't really like him but this myopic claim that he is the Goat is just to much. Roy Jones is the greatest fighter that I have ever seen not Floyd Mayweather.
126
Sanchez
Arguello
Olivares
Gomez
Hamed
Mab
Lopez
Nelson
Pedrosa
135
Buchanon
Ramos
Duran
De Jesus
Shane
Whitaker
Comacho
147
Napoles
Benitez
Palomino
Hearns
Leonard
Wright
Breland
Duran
Quartey
Forrest
Shane
Whitaker
Curry
Haugen
Taylor
Vargas. The one that beat Ike and Winky.
Floyd beats the ones in blue. He embarrasses the ones in red. The others I think either beat him or have a good chance of beating him
I think i will go with have a good chance of beating him.
We still havent seen how to beat floyd yet and there is a blueprint on how to beat those guys mentioned.
The blueprint to beat Hearns was an outstanding chin and power. Mayweather does not possess the power to beat Hearns. I might be unsure of Mayweather against some of the others. Hearns-Mayweather is the one fight where I have no doubt on the outcome.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Good post. It's amazing how modern fans can't understand the difference between watching and reading about fights.
And its amazing to me how modern fans discount history holding onto the belief that boxing started in 1990.
Really? There can't be many fans like that around, surely?
In this day and age we see every aspect of a fighters career - beginning to end, through the good, bad and ugly. We can form our own opinion without relying on the tales of others. It's arguable that old fighters put under the same scrutiny wouldn't look so great... Or maybe look greater.
There are dozens and dozens of modern fans that rubbish the best fighters of this era, yet wax lyrical about men they've never seen. If the fighters from the past were viewed from a blank slate, would these fans be so quick to label them "great?" I highly doubt it.
It's a valid point.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
My biggest problem with Floyd has always been his inactivity. He's been fighting once a year since 2009, and had no fights in 2008. How is anyone supposed to like or applaud that? Back when the "p4p" crown was being argued back and forth between Floyd and Pac, I was squarely on Pac's side simply because Pac was busier. Not to mention that he was being wildly successful in the higher weights.
Now Pac's been "planked" out of p4p discussions, and Floyd's back in the driver's seat. One can only hope that this latest contract with Showtime doesn't have any fine print, or that Floyd doesn't just decide to trash it.
Yes, he's one of the purest boxing talents ever born. But it's also true that many fights were not made when they should have been made, and many times because of Floyd himself.
Some people don't like constant comparisons with fighters of past eras, but...
Sugar Ray Leonard, who many of us use as a comparison because he was also an awesome boxing talent, never went on hiatus to go "dancing with the stars" (or whatever) at the peak of his career. So to me... SRL will always be placed before Floyd on any all-time lists.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Sugar Ray Leonard retired after every other fight and had 40 fights in his entire career. I'm not sure he's the best example to use when talking about inactivity.
