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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
[/QUOTE]
Bullshit what have I said that's bullshit ?
Your inconsistences are there for all to see.[/QUOTE]
Your bullshit Al. If it is that important PM me and I will send you the links to put your mind at ease ffs. It is hardly relevant but if you are going to make accusations and call people liars behind their back then you should be pretty sure before you do so. This is why I don't share stuff here because of the blatant spin put on it and the kind of resentment and bitterness that Gandalf seems to have for somebody that is completely unconnected to him in his little bubble in SK. It is a bit weird.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Bullshit what have I said that's bullshit ?
Your inconsistences are there for all to see.[/QUOTE]
Your bullshit Al. If it is that important PM me and I will send you the links to put your mind at ease ffs. It is hardly relevant but if you are going to make accusations and call people liars behind their back then you should be pretty sure before you do so. This is why I don't share stuff here because of the blatant spin put on it and the kind of resentment and bitterness that Gandalf seems to have for somebody that is completely unconnected to him in his little bubble in SK. It is a bit weird.[/QUOTE]
Firstly I'm far from bitter when it regards you , secondly I called you a liar in one of the threads if I remember rightly.
People here can say what they want and often do, but as your so quick to judge everyone when they give an opinion then i guess what goes around comes around.
I take everything here as light hearted, if i seem angry i'm really nothing more than amused or sometimes frustrated .
Once again I take this forum as a fun place to chat, nothing more nothing less.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
[QUOTE=El Kabong;1519646]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
I really do not want to offend you but I think it would be quite disingenuous to not disavow you of the many myths that make up a large part of your post. It may be incredibly difficult for you to ever contemplate it but yourself, Gandalf, and Carl's followers and apologists, really are the perpetually outraged that you seem to think anybody not agreeing with you all are.
No worries, I'm not bothered...you have a different opinion. An opinion I'd like to understand how you arrive at, but nevertheless a different opinion. My attempts to understand will involve many questions some of which will be quite simple but do understand I do not wish to demean, I wish to understand the simple way you have gone from point A to point B if for nothing else my own edification
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Think about it. You are all not only perpetually outraged, but you actually actively seek out and provoke people in order to justify that outrage. I am not saying you are angry or off your head or mentally ill or constantly walking around with a chip on your shoulder but yourself and Gaydalf do repeatedly start threads expressing that outrage. The way you have framed the entire 'Rape Joke' situation is instructive too. Carl or Tarragon or whatever his name is, at this point in time is most certainly not an elected politician. Everything does not come down to a popularity contest and the very same contempt you are and have constantly and repeatedly show the British electorate with your eagerness to see American interests, and those of the deep state and corporate elites served by fermenting and encouraging violence, and the breakdown of order, to satisfy some weird desire to undo decades of peace and cooperation between Britain and Europe is an expression of that false outrage. Think again about why yourself and Gandalf, neither of whom live or will be affected by Brexit are the biggest advocates of the most extreme and unreasonable version of it.
I suppose I can see this reasoning. I guess I would look outraged, but to whom? About what? Tommy Robinson and Carl Benjamin are called "fascists" why? What views do they espouse that are actually "fascist"? Do you see 0 patriotism in them? Carl Benjamin is focused on free speech, I can't think of 1 single solitary fascist that would have approved of that stance. Tommy is focused mainly on the rapidly changing culture in England due to mass immigration. Is the culture not rapidly changing? Is there not massive immigration? If all cultures ARE equal and beautiful and brilliant then what of the English culture? Is that not worth protecting? Carl Benjamin isn't a politician elected or otherwise, he'd tell you himself he'd have much rather continued on his life playing videogames but he was singled out by the leftist mob and well you sow the wind you reap the whirlwind :dontknow:
There is a lot to cover and so not to get lost in multi-quote hell I will try to answer each point separately.
I don't think that I am the one constantly calling Robinson and Benjamin fascists but I can see why people would be justified in calling them that. They are ultra nationalists. Tommy especially. You can hardly claim someone who joined the BNP and then started the EDL and named himself after a football hooligan, is a moderate in any way, shape or form. He doesn't just have previous it is an extremist position that dominates his life. It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week ;D
You can see how Tommy really operates here in the video below. Remember this is some English twat in Ireland threatening an Irish citizen with violence so you can maybe see how daft the idea of Tommy giving a shit about free speech is or the rule of law. And no there is not one shred of Patriotism in Tommy, quite the opposite he is funded by American and Zionist interests to the tune of many thousands of pounds a week. It is very easy to find these links form Rebel Media, The Middle East Foundation and Australian far right groups. Reps from all these groups can be seen with him everywhere as he tours the UK with his rent a mob.
http://youtu.be/UxqFZI9dDbo?t=1571
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
I don't think that I am the one constantly calling Robinson and Benjamin fascists but I can see why people would be justified in calling them that. They are ultra nationalists. Tommy especially. You can hardly claim someone who joined the BNP and then started the EDL and named himself after a football hooligan, is a moderate in any way, shape or form. He doesn't just have previous it is an extremist position that dominates his life. It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week ;D
You can see how Tommy really operates here in the video below. Remember this is some English twat in Ireland threatening an Irish citizen with violence so you can maybe see how daft the idea of Tommy giving a shit about free speech is or the rule of law. And no there is not one shred of Patriotism in Tommy, quite the opposite he is funded by American and Zionist interests to the tune of many thousands of pounds a week. It is very easy to find these links form Rebel Media, The Middle East Foundation and Australian far right groups. Reps from all these groups can be seen with him everywhere as he tours the UK with his rent a mob.
http://youtu.be/UxqFZI9dDbo?t=1571
Well if they aren't fascists then why would Antifa harass them? Is Antifa expanding like the LGBTQIAA+ movement? What is the difference between "ultra nationalist" and "fascist"? I'm very curious as to what an "ultra nationalist" is.
Who exactly is claiming these things of Tommy as he is at present? Everyone who has seen ANY interview with him at all knows his past. His past is always brought up or hinted at. Has he not changed at all?
What does Ben Shapiro have to do with this? He lost a debate so what he had the balls to have a debate. Carl Benjamin has done an entire tour of debates even debating the very man who eventually threw a milkshake on him because I guess he didn't have the words to counter Mr. Benjamin so I guess physical attack will have to do.
I'd rather we not talk past each other so again, I seek to understand how you obtained your views and so I asked questions hoping you'd take me down the path and show me how you came to believe how you believe which would of course lead to perhaps my better understanding of your thought process which in turn would mean less bickering and perhaps some commiseration on some topics....however I seem to have been met with you presuming to tell me how I came to hold my views. That is curious....would you care to expound on specifically what made my synapses fire as they have?
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
I don't think that I am the one constantly calling Robinson and Benjamin fascists but I can see why people would be justified in calling them that. They are ultra nationalists. Tommy especially. You can hardly claim someone who joined the BNP and then started the EDL and named himself after a football hooligan, is a moderate in any way, shape or form. He doesn't just have previous it is an extremist position that dominates his life. It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week ;D
You can see how Tommy really operates here in the video below. Remember this is some English twat in Ireland threatening an Irish citizen with violence so you can maybe see how daft the idea of Tommy giving a shit about free speech is or the rule of law. And no there is not one shred of Patriotism in Tommy, quite the opposite he is funded by American and Zionist interests to the tune of many thousands of pounds a week. It is very easy to find these links form Rebel Media, The Middle East Foundation and Australian far right groups. Reps from all these groups can be seen with him everywhere as he tours the UK with his rent a mob.
http://youtu.be/UxqFZI9dDbo?t=1571
Well if they aren't fascists then why would Antifa harass them? Is Antifa expanding like the LGBTQIAA+ movement? What is the difference between "ultra nationalist" and "fascist"? I'm very curious as to what an "ultra nationalist" is.
Who exactly is claiming these things of Tommy as he is at present? Everyone who has seen ANY interview with him at all knows his past. His past is always brought up or hinted at. Has he not changed at all?
What does Ben Shapiro have to do with this? He lost a debate so what he had the balls to have a debate. Carl Benjamin has done an entire tour of debates even debating the very man who eventually threw a milkshake on him because I guess he didn't have the words to counter Mr. Benjamin so I guess physical attack will have to do.
I'd rather we not talk past each other so again, I seek to understand how you obtained your views and so I asked questions hoping you'd take me down the path and show me how you came to believe how you believe which would of course lead to perhaps my better understanding of your thought process which in turn would mean less bickering and perhaps some commiseration on some topics....however I seem to have been met with you presuming to tell me how I came to hold my views. That is curious....would you care to expound on specifically what made my synapses fire as they have?
Because you are at least 10-15 years younger than me. You don't live in the UK. I am pretty sure until the last couple of years you would not have even heard of anti-fascists (it would explain how you can with a straight face post Clash videos ;D holding the views you do). You speak about being anti-fascist as though it is repulsive whereas I can probably count more than a hundred friends and colleagues who would use that term to describe themselves including family in their 70's and 80's. You are entitled to believe what you want but if it is not based on experience and just the very one sided views of those supporting Benjamin and Robinson, you will never find a balanced opinion.
I have never once seen such unashamed and unquestioning dumb loyalty and near fan/idol worship than that found on the Benjamin,Robinson, Peterson etc media hubs. Never in the last 30 years has anything but cultdom approached the sheer religiosity of it all. it is a strange fervor in which everyone just pats each other on the back and says how wonderful the objects of their adoration are.
Shapiro did not lose a debate he terminated an interview because he just assumed stuff. Like your dismissal of the BBC. The BBC is so right wing that they have let the most inept and cruel Tory party in history go unchallenged for years. THey have repeatedly had Farrage on, somebody who could not garner enough votes to become an MP.
UKIP who you think represent the people are not exonerated because their corrupt talisman Farrage has left, they are just as guilty as before. Whether it is ties with Cambridge Analytica, Bannon, the aristocrat and money launderer George Cotterell, the deaths of Kenyan election officials while then UKIPS and CA's Alexandra Phillips was working there.
These are not conspiracies or the past these are the real dark forces shaping Britains future. Gandalf will latch on to the simplistic notion that the EU are the corrupt ones and that UKIP are the squeaky clean saviours of a sovereign state but everything points to the opposite being the truth. Look at yourself urging people to create violence on the streets to push what you think is the natural conclusion of a referendum because of your own political beliefs. I don't remember you and Gandalf having a dog in the fight.
Personally I have never been under any illusions about the corrupt nature of most politics, the EU included..but...and it is a big but. I will not let my childrens and grandchildrens future be jeopardized and ruined because some Neanderthal Alpha males want to put the countries dick in a blender to signal their own supposed virility. I have nver asked for the referendum result to be overturned or pretended that all Brexit voters were fascists or far right Neo-Nazis. Others have claimed this but I would ask them to show me where i said such a thing.
That does not mean a WTO deal which would sink our economy and rip up any ties or progress with our close neighbours, relatives, friends and colleagues was what the majority of those voting out in the advisory referendum wanted either.
We are in limbo and it suits our competitors down to the ground.
Farrage accepted those bungs because he openly admitted wanting to move and settle in America. Dress that up as patriotism if you like but you know it is nothing of the sort.
Tommy wants the same thing.
I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear. It is a bit like Gandalf claiming to be left wing or a socialist etc while dissing Marx, Corbyn etc and anything on the left. You too have brought up people claiming they are lefties in America speaking now for the right and everyone of them are just prepared stooges all with a history of doing nothing but diss the left.
It is like cognative dissonance. You have already made up your mind and then look for stuff to confirm it and anything that contradicts that view gets binned.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
Bullshit what have I said that's bullshit ?
Your inconsistences are there for all to see.
Your bullshit Al. If it is that important PM me and I will send you the links to put your mind at ease ffs. It is hardly relevant but if you are going to make accusations and call people liars behind their back then you should be pretty sure before you do so. This is why I don't share stuff here because of the blatant spin put on it and the kind of resentment and bitterness that Gandalf seems to have for somebody that is completely unconnected to him in his little bubble in SK. It is a bit weird.[/QUOTE]
Firstly I'm far from bitter when it regards you , secondly I called you a liar in one of the threads if I remember rightly.
People here can say what they want and often do, but as your so quick to judge everyone when they give an opinion then i guess what goes around comes around.
I take everything here as light hearted, if i seem angry i'm really nothing more than amused or sometimes frustrated .
Once again I take this forum as a fun place to chat, nothing more nothing less.
[/QUOTE]
I am not angry either. I just do not filter what i right here like i would something written professionally. I am just as potty mouthed in real life and while some posters seem obsessed with trying to medically diagnose mental illness remotely, I would not give them the steam off my piss.
I am not judging people when I give an opinion. (well maybe Gandalf ;D) I am often just being Devil's Advocate. Mainly because as you keep reminding me I am in the minority and the forum would be just one big soggy biscuit without it, but also because I genuinely believe in what I post.
I work, and bloody hard, but i also care for someone with very complex and demanding needs. I don't say that for sympathy and people are probably right that I over share , but that is who I am and it shapes how I think.
What do you want me to say ?
I am a benefit scrounger? That would be a lie and make it easier to dismiss anything I say, much like Gandalf having to belittle me and make up stuff because it does not fit with this imaginary person in his head. The anti-austerity march in London was 4 or 5 yrs ago now I was very proud of the Mrs being able to walk it along with hundreds of thousands of other disable people. She could not do it now and is for the most part confined to a wheelchair and with her one working hand becoming more numb each day and sometimes failing. Then factor in epilepsy. Quite why anyone would make something like that up I do not know. Some weeks I earn £25 some weeks £800 some weeks nothing. But I earn it and It gets a bit tiresome people pretending that is the same as being on the dole.
And i don't think you are bitter. Just mistaken about me and what you think i stand for.
I can understand why anyone would vote Brexit and don't think you do not have your own mind or good reasons for doing so. That does not make UKIP , the Brexit party or anyone else any less corrupt and bent than the main parties either.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
I'm puzzled as to why you would ask -what do you want me to say ?
I to my knowledge havent requested you say anything.
Anyway as I say its a forum, it is what it is, people will say what they say and will never be anything more than what they are.
I think that goes for everyone here, in many different ways.
If Bill Gates wants to eat at a soup kitchen then I say let him, life is what it is.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
I'm puzzled as to why you would ask -what do you want me to say ?
I to my knowledge havent requested you say anything.
Anyway as I say its a forum, it is what it is, people will say what they say and will never be anything more than what they are.
I think that goes for everyone here, in many different ways.
If Bill Gates wants to eat at a soup kitchen then I say let him, life is what it is.
Because i am asking you why would you want me to confirm your illusions? I am not moaning about my life. I love my job. The fact that you and Gandalf don't seem to understand why ordinary people cannot just lay their hand on 8-10 grand for a trip abroad says it all. There are more important things than money and if Gates wants to eat at a soup kitchen whilst helping out, then good on him. It is usually the poorest who are the most charitable so he would be breaking the mold to swallow his pride and roll his sleeves up.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
I have no illusions my view is very clear on life.
I am comfortable with my views and my life in general. If someone here doesn't agree with me I really couldn't care less, I just find it fun to argue the point sometimes.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Because you are at least 10-15 years younger than me. You don't live in the UK. I am pretty sure until the last couple of years you would not have even heard of anti-fascists (it would explain how you can with a straight face post Clash videos ;D holding the views you do). You speak about being anti-fascist as though it is repulsive whereas I can probably count more than a hundred friends and colleagues who would use that term to describe themselves including family in their 70's and 80's. You are entitled to believe what you want but if it is not based on experience and just the very one sided views of those supporting Benjamin and Robinson, you will never find a balanced opinion.
I have never once seen such unashamed and unquestioning dumb loyalty and near fan/idol worship than that found on the Benjamin,Robinson, Peterson etc media hubs. Never in the last 30 years has anything but cultdom approached the sheer religiosity of it all. it is a strange fervor in which everyone just pats each other on the back and says how wonderful the objects of their adoration are.
Shapiro did not lose a debate he terminated an interview because he just assumed stuff. Like your dismissal of the BBC. The BBC is so right wing that they have let the most inept and cruel Tory party in history go unchallenged for years. THey have repeatedly had Farrage on, somebody who could not garner enough votes to become an MP.
UKIP who you think represent the people are not exonerated because their corrupt talisman Farrage has left, they are just as guilty as before. Whether it is ties with Cambridge Analytica, Bannon, the aristocrat and money launderer George Cotterell, the deaths of Kenyan election officials while then UKIPS and CA's Alexandra Phillips was working there.
These are not conspiracies or the past these are the real dark forces shaping Britains future. Gandalf will latch on to the simplistic notion that the EU are the corrupt ones and that UKIP are the squeaky clean saviours of a sovereign state but everything points to the opposite being the truth. Look at yourself urging people to create violence on the streets to push what you think is the natural conclusion of a referendum because of your own political beliefs. I don't remember you and Gandalf having a dog in the fight.
Personally I have never been under any illusions about the corrupt nature of most politics, the EU included..but...and it is a big but. I will not let my childrens and grandchildrens future be jeopardized and ruined because some Neanderthal Alpha males want to put the countries dick in a blender to signal their own supposed virility. I have nver asked for the referendum result to be overturned or pretended that all Brexit voters were fascists or far right Neo-Nazis. Others have claimed this but I would ask them to show me where i said such a thing.
That does not mean a WTO deal which would sink our economy and rip up any ties or progress with our close neighbours, relatives, friends and colleagues was what the majority of those voting out in the advisory referendum wanted either.
We are in limbo and it suits our competitors down to the ground.
Farrage accepted those bungs because he openly admitted wanting to move and settle in America. Dress that up as patriotism if you like but you know it is nothing of the sort.
Tommy wants the same thing.
I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear. It is a bit like Gandalf claiming to be left wing or a socialist etc while dissing Marx, Corbyn etc and anything on the left. You too have brought up people claiming they are lefties in America speaking now for the right and everyone of them are just prepared stooges all with a history of doing nothing but diss the left.
It is like cognative dissonance. You have already made up your mind and then look for stuff to confirm it and anything that contradicts that view gets binned.
10-15 years? OK I don't know how that's an issue I'm an adult I was an adult over a decade ago as well. No I don't live there but due to the internet I'm quite able to follow what happens there...various sources too mind. Well I guess if you're "pretty sure" then you must feel good assuming things about me, I do hate to disappoint you, but I don't mix my politics and art (including music) I enjoy, do you? Why would I shut myself off from good art due to politics? Do you?
Have you not? I lived through 8 years of Obama, I've seen plenty and everyone you mentioned has been grilled a hell of a lot harder than Obama ever was. Carl Benjamin on the BBC the other day faced a tougher line of questioning than Obama ever has.
Fine Shapiro terminated an interview, I don't care it's erroneous to the current discussion. If you believe The BBC is right wing then I don't know what to tell you other than "Can you see the edge from where you're standing?"
OK so UKIP and Brexit Party don't represent the people, the people who voted for Brexit...so who does represent those people the Tories? Labour? Change UK?
Why bring up Gandalf? I thought it was you and me that were having a nice discussion where I'm politely asking you questions in order to better understand your position and you're (and maybe this is my not being able to discern tone here) taking shots at me for asking those questions :dontknow: . OK so you're not ok with my having an opinion on British politics....alright then fine I'll go back to my own thread and leave you to sort everything out....
One last thing though....
"I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear"
vs
"It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week ;D"
Cognitive Dissonance.....what's that?
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
@Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
[/QUOTE] 10-15 years? OK I don't know how that's an issue I'm an adult I was an adult over a decade ago as well. No I don't live there but due to the internet I'm quite able to follow what happens there...various sources too mind. Well I guess if you're "pretty sure" then you must feel good assuming things about me, I do hate to disappoint you, but I don't mix my politics and art (including music) I enjoy, do you? Why would I shut myself off from good art due to politics? Do you?
Have you not? I lived through 8 years of Obama, I've seen plenty and everyone you mentioned has been grilled a hell of a lot harder than Obama ever was. Carl Benjamin on the BBC the other day faced a tougher line of questioning than Obama ever has.
Fine Shapiro terminated an interview, I don't care it's erroneous to the current discussion. If you believe The BBC is right wing then I don't know what to tell you other than "Can you see the edge from where you're standing?"
OK so UKIP and Brexit Party don't represent the people, the people who voted for Brexit...so who does represent those people the Tories? Labour? Change UK?
Why bring up Gandalf? I thought it was you and me that were having a nice discussion where I'm politely asking you questions in order to better understand your position and you're (and maybe this is my not being able to discern tone here) taking shots at me for asking those questions :dontknow: . OK so you're not ok with my having an opinion on British politics....alright then fine I'll go back to my own thread and leave you to sort everything out....
One last thing though....
"I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear"
vs
"It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week ;D"
Cognitive Dissonance.....what's that?[/QUOTE]
REPLY
It is only because you constantly quote from the same sources that I came to such a conclusion. You of course would think that the internet is a good substitute for boots on the ground because that is part of your generations way of looking at the world. When my stepsons (who is 30) friends made rape jokes in the past it became quite clear that generations view things differently. It doesn't mean that you are incapable of reaching more rational and reasonable conclusions than somebody of my age but it does explain the difference.
And yes of course i mix my politics and art. I have staked almost everything on it, as have virtually all of my closest friends. They are at times inseparable. There is a whole wall of local venue covered in massive blown up versions of my work and in the very centre of it all is an anti-fascist flag. Even if i am skint or knackered I will always make time for an anti-racist gig or to support a charity supporting refugees or abused kids etc. I have got on a night bus to work in London on many occasion to support the fight against censorship and the killing of what so many now just call 'the elite media class' of journalists all over the world. I am the living embodiment of an SJW crusty hippy punk photo-journalist limp and all, that has had the privilege of spending some of my working life talking to the people who worked with Strummer and the people who helped start Rock against Racism and the Anti-Nazi league. I make no apologies for it. In the end it has kept me alive and helped support two generations.
Benjamin is not Obama ;D and while Obama may have deserved a personal droning, Benjamin certainly deserves at least a bucket of milkshake for many reasons, selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many. The amount of racist shite Obama caught by people prefacing it with provisos that is was not because they were racist that they hated the muslim non american with the fake birth certificate made it quite clear, even from here across the pond, that he was not given the easy ride you are suggesting. I never defended the war monger but did not feel the need to pretend that Trump is not corrupt, inept and as neck deep in corruption as the Clintons and all the others.
You are mistaking my not buying into the right wing propaganda as an indication that I must buy into the other end. That is not the case. Nuance, and complexity are what life is about and you will find no more nuance in the Morning Star than you will in the Daily Mail.
I never said that UKIP does not represent the people that voted for Brexit. Of course they do but no more than the tories , the labour party etc do. That is kind of the point. People across the spectrum voted quite equally to stay and leave, It literally split the nation as evidenced in the close result. How we leave and what we would do if we did was never even discussed.
And yes of course you can have an opinion on British politics. I have tried for months to leave the Trump thread alone but your opinion is as valid as anyone else.
You have to remember though that it is American interests that are being used to shape British and European politics in an effort to make everyone hyper nationlist and isolationist. There is a right wing corporate elite push back happening and it is there because it hates the idea of cooperation and commons and community.
Like yourself it views even quite moderate fair capitalist ideas as communism and a threat. What Yanis proposes would represent real change and people are terrified of that. Ironically that is what those voting Brexit really have in common with many Blairite (or LIB DEM traitorous) remainers. THey want either a regression to the past or 'The same as it ever was'.
You cannot get any more establishment than Farrge the toffs and multinational corporations that installed him. He is no alternative just as UKIP the party he formed is not. Benjamin represents a desire to regress as does Tommy because change is just too challenging to them personally.
Its a lot to digest, and you may find it too unpalatetable, but I have nothing to gain by telling lies.
For me the forum, like life, is kind of wasted if all we all think we can't learn anything from others.
I have found it most instructive, if baffling at times, to be surrounded by people quite unlike most of my mates and family etc.
I brought up Gandalf because he has been one of the most vocal on these things and in this thread but he is speaking from a place between us both.
Most people don't even want to speak about it so don't take me or his word for it and certainly look further away from the narrow prism of Tommy, Carl and that whole 'scene'.
It really is not very representative.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
10-15 years? OK I don't know how that's an issue I'm an adult I was an adult over a decade ago as well. No I don't live there but due to the internet I'm quite able to follow what happens there...various sources too mind. Well I guess if you're "pretty sure" then you must feel good assuming things about me, I do hate to disappoint you, but I don't mix my politics and art (including music) I enjoy, do you? Why would I shut myself off from good art due to politics? Do you?
Have you not? I lived through 8 years of Obama, I've seen plenty and everyone you mentioned has been grilled a hell of a lot harder than Obama ever was. Carl Benjamin on the BBC the other day faced a tougher line of questioning than Obama ever has.
Fine Shapiro terminated an interview, I don't care it's erroneous to the current discussion. If you believe The BBC is right wing then I don't know what to tell you other than "Can you see the edge from where you're standing?"
OK so UKIP and Brexit Party don't represent the people, the people who voted for Brexit...so who does represent those people the Tories? Labour? Change UK?
Why bring up Gandalf? I thought it was you and me that were having a nice discussion where I'm politely asking you questions in order to better understand your position and you're (and maybe this is my not being able to discern tone here) taking shots at me for asking those questions :dontknow: . OK so you're not ok with my having an opinion on British politics....alright then fine I'll go back to my own thread and leave you to sort everything out....
One last thing though....
"I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear"
vs
"It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week ;D"
Cognitive Dissonance.....what's that?[/QUOTE]
REPLY
It is only because you constantly quote from the same sources that I came to such a conclusion. You of course would think that the internet is a good substitute for boots on the ground because that is part of your generations way of looking at the world. When my stepsons (who is 30) friends made rape jokes in the past it became quite clear that generations view things differently. It doesn't mean that you are incapable of reaching more rational and reasonable conclusions than somebody of my age but it does explain the difference.
And yes of course i mix my politics and art. I have staked almost everything on it, as have virtually all of my closest friends. They are at times inseparable. There is a whole wall of local venue covered in massive blown up versions of my work and in the very centre of it all is an anti-fascist flag. Even if i am skint or knackered I will always make time for an anti-racist gig or to support a charity supporting refugees or abused kids etc. I have got on a night bus to work in London on many occasion to support the fight against censorship and the killing of what so many now just call 'the elite media class' of journalists all over the world. I am the living embodiment of an SJW crusty hippy punk photo-journalist limp and all, that has had the privilege of spending some of my working life talking to the people who worked with Strummer and the people who helped start Rock against Racism and the Anti-Nazi league. I make no apologies for it. In the end it has kept me alive and helped support two generations.
Benjamin is not Obama ;D and while Obama may have deserved a personal droning, Benjamin certainly deserves at least a bucket of milkshake for many reasons, selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many. The amount of racist shite Obama caught by people prefacing it with provisos that is was not because they were racist that they hated the muslim non american with the fake birth certificate made it quite clear, even from here across the pond, that he was not given the easy ride you are suggesting. I never defended the war monger but did not feel the need to pretend that Trump is not corrupt, inept and as neck deep in corruption as the Clintons and all the others.
You are mistaking my not buying into the right wing propaganda as an indication that I must buy into the other end. That is not the case. Nuance, and complexity are what life is about and you will find no more nuance in the Morning Star than you will in the Daily Mail.
I never said that UKIP does not represent the people that voted for Brexit. Of course they do but no more than the tories , the labour party etc do. That is kind of the point. People across the spectrum voted quite equally to stay and leave, It literally split the nation as evidenced in the close result. How we leave and what we would do if we did was never even discussed.
And yes of course you can have an opinion on British politics. I have tried for months to leave the Trump thread alone but your opinion is as valid as anyone else.
You have to remember though that it is American interests that are being used to shape British and European politics in an effort to make everyone hyper nationlist and isolationist. There is a right wing corporate elite push back happening and it is there because it hates the idea of cooperation and commons and community.
Like yourself it views even quite moderate fair capitalist ideas as communism and a threat. What Yanis proposes would represent real change and people are terrified of that. Ironically that is what those voting Brexit really have in common with many Blairite (or LIB DEM traitorous) remainers. THey want either a regression to the past or 'The same as it ever was'.
You cannot get any more establishment than Farrge the toffs and multinational corporations that installed him. He is no alternative just as UKIP the party he formed is not. Benjamin represents a desire to regress as does Tommy because change is just too challenging to them personally.
Its a lot to digest, and you may find it too unpalatetable, but I have nothing to gain by telling lies.
For me the forum, like life, is kind of wasted if all we all think we can't learn anything from others.
I have found it most instructive, if baffling at times, to be surrounded by people quite unlike most of my mates and family etc.
I brought up Gandalf because he has been one of the most vocal on these things and in this thread but he is speaking from a place between us both.
Most people don't even want to speak about it so don't take me or his word for it and certainly look further away from the narrow prism of Tommy, Carl and that whole 'scene'.
It really is not very representative.[/QUOTE]
If you say so then it must be so. I can't comment since I'm not in England and you refuse to answer any questions which would of course show your dedication to attempting to be better and more understanding of each other.
Well.....enjoy yourself
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Must be kinda rough with no Beethoven, no Salvador Dalí, no Wagner, no Da Vinci, no Michelangelo, why you can't even revel in the boxing of Muhammad Ali what with you not being a Muslim and all you bloody infidel....but hey what do I care, I don't mix my political views and everything I enjoy, you on the other hand
(Waits for logic and reasoning to land)
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Damn no Beatles. Is Jimmy buffet ok?
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
@
Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.
I have no idea, as i've not read anything for 24 hours, however, i'm pretty certain my investigation will find it's because Beanz loves you. I'll be back.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
@
Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.
I have no idea, as i've not read anything for 24 hours, however, i'm pretty certain my investigation will find it's because Beanz loves you. I'll be back.
I am not looking for protection, but just pointing out that he does seem a little infatuated. I posted a few things and deleted them as you would have noticed as I don't want to encourage him too much knowing his mania is in full bloom.
Is violence against individuals really something we should be advocating? My entire stance on this is that we don't egg Jeremy and we don't milkshake others. Normalizing violence is not so good.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Beanz, regardless of the motives of the Robinson supporters and spin of the video, it clearly shows the coppers chaperoning the muslim mob. They're tooled up roaring allah akbar whilst screaming about "nobody offends their religion." If the "counter protesters" lived there, fair enough, but they came from another town.
When Tommy does the the paranoid rant - "the cops are out to get me" - it's hard to not think he may have a point.
I have never disputed this. Tommy has been on a tour of the UK and I can assure you, just like Carl Benjamin the local firms have all put calls out to make sure that their lads are there in force when they arrive too. Look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. Bold as brass on social media etc. When you buy into the bullshit and kid yourself into thinking only the 'elitist media and middle class hippies' are opposed to people like Farrage , Robinson and Benjamin you don't exactly sound very objective yourself.
Tommy made a rod for his own back and has always told his supporters that the victim status in great for him. When no cameras are present then yes punch and lay into any one protesting his presence but when the cameras are on make sure they play the victim card after provoking people much like Benjamin.
"Elitist media, middle class hippies" was a quote from Carlagon's video (I quite like it). You see, I actually watch these short videos and read the articles before commenting. Sometimes I don't think you do, like I know most people here don't, otherwise you simply won't give an inch. Ever.
I've often called Tommy a "paranoid fantasist, bullshitter." However, seeing police lead a mob to attack him and seeing the blatant double standards and spin in the main stream reporting of the Robinson attack, then i'll say something is not right.
I can only comment on what I see. I believed the media portrayal of an innocent "man of colour" minding his own business whilst enjoying a milk shake, but then footage showed he was a ranting and raving lunatic chasing Robinson all over the shop. I'm not happy to be fooled by such a bogus narrative and will admit I was wrong, regardless.
Carlagon is willing to debate anyone about his views, he is posting unedited videos. I really don't see how he's not the open free speech merchant he claims to be. The few debates I watched of his, the people challenging almost looked shocked when he assured them the video won't be doctored in anyway.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Exactly, he really is what he says. He posts the entire 3-4 hour gatherings on his channel unedited warts and all. Could you imagine any of the main parties going out there meeting with anyone who agrees or disagrees and having a full conversation putting it up like that? They won't do it. The conversations are really intriguing. This new way of politicking is only to be commended. There are things I disagree with him about, but many things I agree with. It is a genuinely positive approach and shame on the media for doing what they do.
People need to look closely and ask the question 'Who are the real intolerant authoritarians here?' It isn't people who advocate for self determination, the end to hate speech laws and promote liberty.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
10-15 years? OK I don't know how that's an issue I'm an adult I was an adult over a decade ago as well. No I don't live there but due to the internet I'm quite able to follow what happens there...various sources too mind. Well I guess if you're "pretty sure" then you must feel good assuming things about me, I do hate to disappoint you, but I don't mix my politics and art (including music) I enjoy, do you? Why would I shut myself off from good art due to politics? Do you?
Have you not? I lived through 8 years of Obama, I've seen plenty and everyone you mentioned has been grilled a hell of a lot harder than Obama ever was. Carl Benjamin on the BBC the other day faced a tougher line of questioning than Obama ever has.
Fine Shapiro terminated an interview, I don't care it's erroneous to the current discussion. If you believe The BBC is right wing then I don't know what to tell you other than "Can you see the edge from where you're standing?"
OK so UKIP and Brexit Party don't represent the people, the people who voted for Brexit...so who does represent those people the Tories? Labour? Change UK?
Why bring up Gandalf? I thought it was you and me that were having a nice discussion where I'm politely asking you questions in order to better understand your position and you're (and maybe this is my not being able to discern tone here) taking shots at me for asking those questions :dontknow: . OK so you're not ok with my having an opinion on British politics....alright then fine I'll go back to my own thread and leave you to sort everything out....
One last thing though....
"I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear"
vs
"It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week ;D"
Cognitive Dissonance.....what's that?
REPLY
It is only because you constantly quote from the same sources that I came to such a conclusion. You of course would think that the internet is a good substitute for boots on the ground because that is part of your generations way of looking at the world. When my stepsons (who is 30) friends made rape jokes in the past it became quite clear that generations view things differently. It doesn't mean that you are incapable of reaching more rational and reasonable conclusions than somebody of my age but it does explain the difference.
And yes of course i mix my politics and art. I have staked almost everything on it, as have virtually all of my closest friends. They are at times inseparable. There is a whole wall of local venue covered in massive blown up versions of my work and in the very centre of it all is an anti-fascist flag. Even if i am skint or knackered I will always make time for an anti-racist gig or to support a charity supporting refugees or abused kids etc. I have got on a night bus to work in London on many occasion to support the fight against censorship and the killing of what so many now just call 'the elite media class' of journalists all over the world. I am the living embodiment of an SJW crusty hippy punk photo-journalist limp and all, that has had the privilege of spending some of my working life talking to the people who worked with Strummer and the people who helped start Rock against Racism and the Anti-Nazi league. I make no apologies for it. In the end it has kept me alive and helped support two generations.
Benjamin is not Obama ;D and while Obama may have deserved a personal droning, Benjamin certainly deserves at least a bucket of milkshake for many reasons, selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many. The amount of racist shite Obama caught by people prefacing it with provisos that is was not because they were racist that they hated the muslim non american with the fake birth certificate made it quite clear, even from here across the pond, that he was not given the easy ride you are suggesting. I never defended the war monger but did not feel the need to pretend that Trump is not corrupt, inept and as neck deep in corruption as the Clintons and all the others.
You are mistaking my not buying into the right wing propaganda as an indication that I must buy into the other end. That is not the case. Nuance, and complexity are what life is about and you will find no more nuance in the Morning Star than you will in the Daily Mail.
I never said that UKIP does not represent the people that voted for Brexit. Of course they do but no more than the tories , the labour party etc do. That is kind of the point. People across the spectrum voted quite equally to stay and leave, It literally split the nation as evidenced in the close result. How we leave and what we would do if we did was never even discussed.
And yes of course you can have an opinion on British politics. I have tried for months to leave the Trump thread alone but your opinion is as valid as anyone else.
You have to remember though that it is American interests that are being used to shape British and European politics in an effort to make everyone hyper nationlist and isolationist. There is a right wing corporate elite push back happening and it is there because it hates the idea of cooperation and commons and community.
Like yourself it views even quite moderate fair capitalist ideas as communism and a threat. What Yanis proposes would represent real change and people are terrified of that. Ironically that is what those voting Brexit really have in common with many Blairite (or LIB DEM traitorous) remainers. THey want either a regression to the past or 'The same as it ever was'.
You cannot get any more establishment than Farrge the toffs and multinational corporations that installed him. He is no alternative just as UKIP the party he formed is not. Benjamin represents a desire to regress as does Tommy because change is just too challenging to them personally.
Its a lot to digest, and you may find it too unpalatetable, but I have nothing to gain by telling lies.
For me the forum, like life, is kind of wasted if all we all think we can't learn anything from others.
I have found it most instructive, if baffling at times, to be surrounded by people quite unlike most of my mates and family etc.
I brought up Gandalf because he has been one of the most vocal on these things and in this thread but he is speaking from a place between us both.
Most people don't even want to speak about it so don't take me or his word for it and certainly look further away from the narrow prism of Tommy, Carl and that whole 'scene'.
It really is not very representative.[/QUOTE]
If you say so then it must be so. I can't comment since I'm not in England and you refuse to answer any questions which would of course show your dedication to attempting to be better and more understanding of each other.
Well.....enjoy yourself[/QUOTE]
How is that an example of me not answering any questions or saying you can't comment?it simply isn't and you know it.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
@
Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.
I have no idea, as i've not read anything for 24 hours, however, i'm pretty certain my investigation will find it's because Beanz loves you. I'll be back.
I am not looking for protection, but just pointing out that he does seem a little infatuated. I posted a few things and deleted them as you would have noticed as I don't want to encourage him too much knowing his mania is in full bloom.
Is violence against individuals really something we should be advocating? My entire stance on this is that we don't egg Jeremy and we don't milkshake others. Normalizing violence is not so good.
'His mania is in full bloom'?
There is nothing manic in my posts and I have never been manic in any form. In fact the only person ever suggesting they were bi-polar or manic depressive and taking drugs to deal with it is you. And yet here you are with the 'he is mad, he is addicted, he is a liar' narrative.
Why are you asking for me to banned again? It's a bit of an odd stance from someone pretending to belive in free speech.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
@
Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.
I have no idea, as i've not read anything for 24 hours, however, i'm pretty certain my investigation will find it's because Beanz loves you. I'll be back.
I am not looking for protection, but just pointing out that he does seem a little infatuated. I posted a few things and deleted them as you would have noticed as I don't want to encourage him too much knowing his mania is in full bloom.
Is violence against individuals really something we should be advocating? My entire stance on this is that we don't egg Jeremy and we don't milkshake others. Normalizing violence is not so good.
'His mania is in full bloom'?
There is nothing manic in my posts and I have never been manic in any form. In fact the only person ever suggesting they were bi-polar or manic depressive and taking drugs to deal with it is you. And yet here you are with the 'he is mad, he is addicted, he is a liar' narrative.
Why are you asking for me to banned again? It's a bit of an odd stance from someone pretending to belive in free speech.
It is a beautiful turn of phrase, isn't it? The post above this one certainly looks, shall we say, 'flamboyant' and 'eccentric'.
Yes, unlike you I will admit to and be open about my issues. I self diagnosed myself having gone through my Van Gogh period and decided that I had to be at the very least mildly eccentric. Little did I know that by changing my lifestyle and tidying my room a little, it would all get a little bit better. Thus I am now nothing more than an occasional insomniac and occasionally, very occasionally I will drink too much, and have the hangover anxiety and remember why I do not do that and thus not do it for another 4 months or what have you. See, open and honest. Nobody had to goad it out of me.
Am I asking for you to be banned again? You keep making things up. I also added the following "I am not looking for protection, but just pointing out that he does seem a little infatuated" which would indicate that banning is not on the agenda. Though it might help you if you see Farage and not Gandalf. Or if you see Benjamin and not Gandalf. Or if you see Al and not Gandalf. Or if you see Lyle and not Gandalf. Or if you see Walrus and not Gandalf. Though undeniably the final two are linked a little like Romeo and Juliet. The Dire Straits version rather than the radical lesbian known as William Shakespeare. Not my words, but the words of a very wild media which can always be trusted.
You see where I am going with this?
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Okay, not quite as good as saying 'Look at the multiple references to Gandalf in the previous pages' and the post above does contain some good points, but you do keep defending violence against people for doing nothing more than expressing an opinion and as a man who admits to 'losing my job and family' if you meet such a person then you do unfortunately come across as rather 'eccentric'.
Then is your inability to process that ordinary people, mostly working class people, from places not as plummy as your town, want out. It is in one ear and out the other. The notion that the EU can be reformed is absurd. Since when has the EU relented on anything?
Listen to some of the statements PJW compiles in his latest video. You want in because you do not think the British can govern themselves and you clearly have a problem with basically the majority of the UK as most regions outside of London simply don't want to be a part of it.
There is nothing wrong with wanting citizens to be first and to be an individual state that governs itself. You know full well that open borders was never anything the people agreed to. You full well know that.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
@
Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.
I have no idea, as i've not read anything for 24 hours, however, i'm pretty certain my investigation will find it's because Beanz loves you. I'll be back.
I am not looking for protection, but just pointing out that he does seem a little infatuated. I posted a few things and deleted them as you would have noticed as I don't want to encourage him too much knowing his mania is in full bloom.
Is violence against individuals really something we should be advocating? My entire stance on this is that we don't egg Jeremy and we don't milkshake others. Normalizing violence is not so good.
'His mania is in full bloom'?
There is nothing manic in my posts and I have never been manic in any form. In fact the only person ever suggesting they were bi-polar or manic depressive and taking drugs to deal with it is you. And yet here you are with the 'he is mad, he is addicted, he is a liar' narrative.
Why are you asking for me to banned again? It's a bit of an odd stance from someone pretending to belive in free speech.
It is a beautiful turn of phrase, isn't it? The post above this one certainly looks, shall we say, 'flamboyant' and 'eccentric'.
Yes, unlike you I will admit to and be open about my issues. I self diagnosed myself having gone through my Van Gogh period and decided that I had to be at the very least mildly eccentric. Little did I know that by changing my lifestyle and tidying my room a little, it would all get a little bit better. Thus I am now nothing more than an occasional insomniac and occasionally, very occasionally I will drink too much, and have the hangover anxiety and remember why I do not do that and thus not do it for another 4 months or what have you. See, open and honest. Nobody had to goad it out of me.
Am I asking for you to be banned again? You keep making things up. I also added the following "I am not looking for protection, but just pointing out that he does seem a little infatuated" which would indicate that banning is not on the agenda. Though it might help you if you see Farage and not Gandalf. Or if you see Benjamin and not Gandalf. Or if you see Al and not Gandalf. Or if you see Lyle and not Gandalf. Or if you see Walrus and not Gandalf. Though undeniably the final two are linked a little like Romeo and Juliet. The Dire Straits version rather than the radical lesbian known as William Shakespeare. Not my words, but the words of a very wild media which can always be trusted.
You see where I am going with this?
Not really there is nothing flamboyant or eccentric at all about it. You had and still have it seems too much time on your hands. You even boasted about it. Most normal people do not. You are the most vocal poster on a referendum you never voted in. In a country you do not live in.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Okay, not quite as good as saying 'Look at the multiple references to Gandalf in the previous pages' and the post above does contain some good points, but you do keep defending violence against people for doing nothing more than expressing an opinion and as a man who admits to 'losing my job and family' if you meet such a person then you do unfortunately come across as rather 'eccentric'.
Then is your inability to process that ordinary people, mostly working class people, from places not as plummy as your town, want out. It is in one ear and out the other. The notion that the EU can be reformed is absurd. Since when has the EU relented on anything?
Listen to some of the statements PJW compiles in his latest video. You want in because you do not think the British can govern themselves and you clearly have a problem with basically the majority of the UK as most regions outside of London simply don't want to be a part of it.
There is nothing wrong with wanting citizens to be first and to be an individual state that governs itself. You know full well that open borders was never anything the people agreed to. You full well know that.
This really is just you ranting. Watch the video. I understand you are deluded at best but actually something much more sinister really.
Like your assertion that Corbyn and his labour party are blairites. Red Jezza and comrade Mcdonnell.. Really? Ha! Like your fear of socialism and your insistence that private education and the dismantling of the NHS is what you want in your drive to make the UK a mini me USA.
You have quite publicly backed the MIC and the continuation of constant wars in the middle East with your endorsement of their man Tommy and his mossad backing rhetoric. Like him you are backing the empire based occupation of Ireland and the persecution of Palestinians and genuine refugees all over the world.
You have seen the corruption at the heart of UKIP and ignored it. The elitism of Farrage and his foreign backers and ignored it.
I live work and vote here mate. PJW like you does not. He takes his pieces of silver from those who want to destroy everything that makes Britain what it is and again it seems you endorse that.
You sneer at the UK and its citizens from afar while we all live and work here. Stop trying to make everyone as childish as you are. Why the fuck would anyone waste their time talking to these dicks who are your heroes?
You go and meet them you lazy bastard. You go to work and play on your PlayStation and then want a blue Peter badge for tidying your room. Get a life mate it is pitiful hearing you mistake reading a book for having one.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Now I am the one ranting? I am sinister? It isn't me saying I am unable to control myself in a conversation with somebody or saying it is okay to physically assault people. :-\
1. I have never called Corbyn a Blairite. I have said his party is full Blair-esque ideologues. It is one reason he cannot unify his own party and why they periodically want to boot him unless they can get their way. So, again, why do you continually lie like this? Again, I have not called for the privatisation of the NHS or the public school system. Go back and read my response to Master in that thread.
2. Now, go back and tell me when I have supported the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq or the dismantling of Libya or Syria? I am against all foreign intervention. In fact Robinson himself claimed the same in a recent interview with a member of the public. However, I am not Tommy Robinson am I? I think you are getting confused about who I am again. I have always argued for a return to the 1967 borders as advocated by Noam Chomsky. I am against the suppression of the Palestinian people. You must remember that I do not agree with all people on all things. I am my own person. Please, stop making things up.
3. UKIP at its present time is on a different path to the Farage era and issues like freedom of expression, anti political correctness, border control, and self determination are what I like. Just as Palestine should be free, so should the UK.
4. It does not matter where you live or work. A British citizen is a British citizen and his voice and opinion is as important as any other British citizen. He certainly has a bigger platform than you or I. He loves his country and if his money comes from opposing what you believe then that is what it is. I am not Paul Joseph Watson. It is the discourse I care about. He did not manufacture EU politicians essentially saying they have always wanted colonies and that they effectively own the UK. In that sense he sounds like a patriot.
5. Oh dear running out of points so resorting to potty mouth and insults. I do not sneer at good people and there are many. I sneer at fools only and there are seemingly many too. It is the way the cookie crumbles. It is you sneering at the people and pretending that their voices do not matter. They had a referendum and all you do is claim that you are right and that they are wrong and thus you won't stop going on about it. I sneer at people assaulting people while you say throw more milkshakes. And I am childish? Says the violent 48 year old who will lose his job and family if he engages with someone who is not part of art collective lefty bubble circuit? Grow up. :rolleyes:
6. I would love to meet such people and say thank you for reclaiming national pride after years of put downs. Why do you think people of my generation ended up ashamed of our country? It is because we are taught to hate ourselves be it through parents or the system itself and indoctrination. We do all have potential and can do very well providing we are motivated and guided well.
@Elkabong we have discussed Playstation games. Would you care to tell Beanz how much I play on my PS4? I think he will be disappointed by his projection. I really do only play 2 games a year max and in my vacation time only. Why don't you harangue all the other gamers and readers out there? Didn't you say you were going to pick up RDR2 yourself. Again. Grow up! ;D
All that to defend pretty much nothing at all.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Don't like much of Beanz posts but he is the only other one I see acknowledging Robinsons Mossad Israel Zionist ties
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
Don't like much of Beanz posts but he is the only other one I see acknowledging Robinsons Mossad Israel Zionist ties
Call me naive but I was surprised at that link.
-
Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Anarchist toff - You should be be in jail for your comments.
Carlagon - You have a t-shirt which advocates killing anyone who opposes your revolution.
Anarchrist - It's tongue in cheek.
Carlagon - So it's a joke when you do it but not when I do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv84ylX2RbI
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Hahaha! These 'debates' are gold. Really loving them. Sargon is starting to make a dent now, he is really good at this.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
How is that an example of me not answering any questions or saying you can't comment?it simply isn't and you know it.
Firstly, you didn't answer my questions. Secondly, and I initially chalked this up to my not being able to judge the tone in which you've responded, but you've seemingly returned to your default setting and it comes across as quite rude and dismissive. Here I am wanting a free exchange of ideas back and forth and instead of obliging me and my curiosity you decide to shit all over me...you're too young, you're not from here, you don't read or watch the correct news outlets, and so on...I trusted that you would be true to your word and we'd put all the pettiness behind us. I'm still acting in good faith right now, I'm not personally attacking you, I've put questions to you so that I might glean some information from your answers, but given your responses I don't think I'll bother with it anymore.
I'm not even attempting debate at this point, I'm attempting to understand your side and your side is apparently to dismiss anything and everything that I think and believe but also those things you ASSUME I think and believe.
You missed a golden opportunity to win someone over.
Oh and what's all this then???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ryN7ARL1E
You older than George Carlin? He was born in 1937...is that too old? Not old enough? Just right? Hmm
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
10 days ago so you may have missed it but this is what i mean about you just assuming stuff and not even reading threads so maybe i should not be surprised by you not even reading my replies to your questions.
And yes I comprehensively answered all your questions one by one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
What Benjamin says
"Once again BuzzFeed position themselves as the progressive joke police. I stand behind David Baddiel's justification about why any subject can be the subject of a joke. The alternative is a world devoid of humour, the essential tool we use to reduce the horror of events that are beyond our control"
What Baddiel actually saidKate McCann says, "So it's acceptable to joke about raping a woman?" And Carl Benjamin says - well, shouts - "YES! ANY QUESTIONS?" The thing is Carl: you don't look like you're joking. You look like you're consumed with rage.
George Carlin made a joke about rape when he said you can make a joke of anything
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
What Benjamin says
"Once again BuzzFeed position themselves as the progressive joke police. I stand behind David Baddiel's justification about why any subject can be the subject of a joke. The alternative is a world devoid of humour, the essential tool we use to reduce the horror of events that are beyond our control"
What Baddiel actually saidKate McCann says, "So it's acceptable to joke about raping a woman?" And Carl Benjamin says - well, shouts - "YES! ANY QUESTIONS?" The thing is Carl: you don't look like you're joking. You look like you're consumed with rage.
George Carlin made a joke about rape when he said you can make a joke of anything
He also said it depends on how you construct the joke. He also said "
i've got nothing against the feminists I happen to agree with most of the feminist philosophy I have read. I agree for the most part that men are vain greedy brutal assholes who have just about ruined this planet because they afraid someone might have a bigger dick out there. Men are basically insecure about the size of their dicks and so go to war over it"
He made a lot of points you and most of the people quoting him would rip the piss out of other people for stating.
Benjamin also said he would not be happy if someone said what he did to his own wife.
Benjamin could also not make a joke if his life depended on it. You both have that in common. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
What Benjamin says
"Once again BuzzFeed position themselves as the progressive joke police. I stand behind David Baddiel's justification about why any subject can be the subject of a joke. The alternative is a world devoid of humour, the essential tool we use to reduce the horror of events that are beyond our control"
What Baddiel actually saidKate McCann says, "So it's acceptable to joke about raping a woman?" And Carl Benjamin says - well, shouts - "YES! ANY QUESTIONS?" The thing is Carl: you don't look like you're joking. You look like you're consumed with rage.
George Carlin made a joke about rape when he said you can make a joke of anything
He also said it depends on how you construct the joke. He also said "
i've got nothing against the feminists I happen to agree with most of the feminist philosophy I have read. I agree for the most part that men are vain greedy brutal assholes who have just about ruined this planet because they afraid someone might have a bigger dick out there. Men are basically insecure about the size of their dicks and so go to war over it"
He made a lot of points you and most of the people quoting him would rip the piss out of other people for stating.
Benjamin also said he would not be happy if someone said what he did to his own wife.
Benjamin could also not make a joke if his life depended on it. You both have that in common. ;)
Beanz, I was just saying he did a few that’s all it wasn’t an attack on you I’m not really following what is going on here I guess I stepped into something
I didn't think it was an attack on me and neither was I attacking you. Like some french bloke said "You can joke about anything but you can't expect everyone to laugh"
He said it in French of course
x
;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
How is that an example of me not answering any questions or saying you can't comment?it simply isn't and you know it.
Firstly, you didn't answer my questions. Secondly, and I initially chalked this up to my not being able to judge the tone in which you've responded, but you've seemingly returned to your default setting and it comes across as quite rude and dismissive. Here I am wanting a free exchange of ideas back and forth and instead of obliging me and my curiosity you decide to shit all over me...you're too young, you're not from here, you don't read or watch the correct news outlets, and so on...I trusted that you would be true to your word and we'd put all the pettiness behind us. I'm still acting in good faith right now, I'm not personally attacking you, I've put questions to you so that
I might glean some information from your answers, but given your responses I don't think I'll bother with it anymore.
I'm not even attempting debate at this point, I'm attempting to understand your side and your side is apparently to dismiss anything and everything that I think and believe but also those things you ASSUME I think and believe.
You missed a golden opportunity to win someone over.
Oh and what's all this then???
You older than George Carlin? He was born in 1937...is that too old? Not old enough? Just right? Hmm
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Actually you didn't answer them and I'll go over that more tomorrow.
So I guess you and you alone or you and a couple of other left-leaning people are the folks who decide if a joke is jokey enough to be a joke is that it are you the one that decides that are you the one that decides when a joke is a joke and when one's not a joke is it only if the joke goes with your political views is that it is it like with other art that you like it's got to be part of your political view and something that you agree with in order for it to be acceptable speech is that it?
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
This is an excellent expose of the Greater Manchester Police and what happened in Oldham which the media and police fail to be honest about. To put it into perspective in Cambridge Robinson was thrown out of a pub while watching watching football with his kids for no reason at all except that he might miraculously cause a disturbance. Yet here the police were actually leading hundreds of armed men to a political rally in order to cause a serious ruckus. Interesting optics, right? Now people wonder why I think there might be a problem with 'some' government workers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=481&v=2yhm10_n3GI
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
10-15 years? OK I don't know how that's an issue I'm an adult I was an adult over a decade ago as well. No I don't live there but due to the internet I'm quite able to follow what happens there...various sources too mind. Well I guess if you're "pretty sure" then you must feel good assuming things about me, I do hate to disappoint you, but I don't mix my politics and art (including music) I enjoy, do you? Why would I shut myself off from good art due to politics? Do you?
Have you not? I lived through 8 years of Obama, I've seen plenty and everyone you mentioned has been grilled a hell of a lot harder than Obama ever was. Carl Benjamin on the BBC the other day faced a tougher line of questioning than Obama ever has.
Fine Shapiro terminated an interview, I don't care it's erroneous to the current discussion. If you believe The BBC is right wing then I don't know what to tell you other than "Can you see the edge from where you're standing?"
OK so UKIP and Brexit Party don't represent the people, the people who voted for Brexit...so who does represent those people the Tories? Labour? Change UK?
Why bring up Gandalf? I thought it was you and me that were having a nice discussion where I'm politely asking you questions in order to better understand your position and you're (and maybe this is my not being able to discern tone here) taking shots at me for asking those questions :dontknow: . OK so you're not ok with my having an opinion on British politics....alright then fine I'll go back to my own thread and leave you to sort everything out....
One last thing though....
"I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear"
vs
"It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week ;D"
Cognitive Dissonance.....what's that?[/QUOTE]
REPLY
It is only because you constantly quote from the same sources that I came to such a conclusion. You of course would think that the internet is a good substitute for boots on the ground because that is part of your generations way of looking at the world. When my stepsons (who is 30) friends made rape jokes in the past it became quite clear that generations view things differently. It doesn't mean that you are incapable of reaching more rational and reasonable conclusions than somebody of my age but it does explain the difference.
And yes of course i mix my politics and art. I have staked almost everything on it, as have virtually all of my closest friends. They are at times inseparable. There is a whole wall of local venue covered in massive blown up versions of my work and in the very centre of it all is an anti-fascist flag. Even if i am skint or knackered I will always make time for an anti-racist gig or to support a charity supporting refugees or abused kids etc. I have got on a night bus to work in London on many occasion to support the fight against censorship and the killing of what so many now just call 'the elite media class' of journalists all over the world. I am the living embodiment of an SJW crusty hippy punk photo-journalist limp and all, that has had the privilege of spending some of my working life talking to the people who worked with Strummer and the people who helped start Rock against Racism and the Anti-Nazi league. I make no apologies for it. In the end it has kept me alive and helped support two generations.
Benjamin is not Obama ;D and while Obama may have deserved a personal droning, Benjamin certainly deserves at least a bucket of milkshake for many reasons, selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many. The amount of racist shite Obama caught by people prefacing it with provisos that is was not because they were racist that they hated the muslim non american with the fake birth certificate made it quite clear, even from here across the pond, that he was not given the easy ride you are suggesting. I never defended the war monger but did not feel the need to pretend that Trump is not corrupt, inept and as neck deep in corruption as the Clintons and all the others.
You are mistaking my not buying into the right wing propaganda as an indication that I must buy into the other end. That is not the case. Nuance, and complexity are what life is about and you will find no more nuance in the Morning Star than you will in the Daily Mail.
I never said that UKIP does not represent the people that voted for Brexit. Of course they do but no more than the tories , the labour party etc do. That is kind of the point. People across the spectrum voted quite equally to stay and leave, It literally split the nation as evidenced in the close result. How we leave and what we would do if we did was never even discussed.
And yes of course you can have an opinion on British politics. I have tried for months to leave the Trump thread alone but your opinion is as valid as anyone else.
You have to remember though that it is American interests that are being used to shape British and European politics in an effort to make everyone hyper nationlist and isolationist. There is a right wing corporate elite push back happening and it is there because it hates the idea of cooperation and commons and community.
Like yourself it views even quite moderate fair capitalist ideas as communism and a threat. What Yanis proposes would represent real change and people are terrified of that. Ironically that is what those voting Brexit really have in common with many Blairite (or LIB DEM traitorous) remainers. THey want either a regression to the past or 'The same as it ever was'.
You cannot get any more establishment than Farrge the toffs and multinational corporations that installed him. He is no alternative just as UKIP the party he formed is not. Benjamin represents a desire to regress as does Tommy because change is just too challenging to them personally.
Its a lot to digest, and you may find it too unpalatetable, but I have nothing to gain by telling lies.
For me the forum, like life, is kind of wasted if all we all think we can't learn anything from others.
I have found it most instructive, if baffling at times, to be surrounded by people quite unlike most of my mates and family etc.
I brought up Gandalf because he has been one of the most vocal on these things and in this thread but he is speaking from a place between us both.
Most people don't even want to speak about it so don't take me or his word for it and certainly look further away from the narrow prism of Tommy, Carl and that whole 'scene'.
It really is not very representative.[/QUOTE]
@El Kabong here are you questions answered in full. I posted it already. You really are quite unreasonable. I get you don't like or agree with the answers but that is not the point.
Tommy, Carl, PJW and the MSM are two sides of the same coin. They feed each other and revel in outrage and identity politics. You and many here reposting their crap are part of the same game.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
My questions (which still remain unanswered) are as follows:
1. What am I "outraged" about specifically?
2. To whom do I look outraged?
3. Why are Tommy Robinson & Carl Benjamin called "fascists"? (note that the question never accuses you personally of calling them that, but folks on your side certainly use the term often and I would like to know why so I can better understand their view)
4. (I'll lump all these together as they are in the same vein) Is the culture not rapidly changing? Is there not massive immigration? If all cultures ARE equal and beautiful and brilliant then what of the English culture? Is that not worth protecting?
5. How have I 'cheapened the entire concept of free speech'? which was a reference to your direct quote which was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Do you not think it strange when you and Carl speak about Free speech it is in a way that cheapens and makes the concept worthless?
6. You also accused me (and Carl Benjamin) of both "shutting down the right of reply" and "telling people what they should feel" so I politely asked: Who is doing that? How are they doing it? I also asked "I can't force people to feel feelings can I?" which in this case would best be worded in question form as: Do you believe I can force people to feel feelings against their will?
7. (again I'll group these) What makes him(Carl Benjamin) a cunt? What has he (Carl) done specifically to draw your ire? What have I lied about? What has he (Carl) lied about? I'm searching my mind to figure this out. Do I use the same tactics?
I don't feel as though the questions asked were all that horrible given the apparent vitriol you still have for me. I've been quite patient and chalked up the tone of your posts to my misunderstanding the tone in which you feel you are writing....you've never addressed that which leads me to believe more that the tone you've written in is quite on purpose and therefore you're no longer operating on friendly terms with me. Which hell that's certainly your prerogative, but I'm not going to be belligerent with you and if you want to have a civil discussion then perhaps you'll correct yourself, but that's entirely up to you.
Now then, I shall address the post which you believe answered all of my questions. I do hope this is not a futile gesture, I continue to act in good faith treating you in a friendly manner and making no assumptions of you or your character which is why of course I must ask questions and gather that information in order to respond appropriately as my goal is to better understand you and your way of thinking and that is made rather difficult when you refuse to respond to simple honest questions or you respond with mordancy.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
OK so I'm now going to address your answers to those questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
It is only because you constantly quote from the same sources that I came to such a conclusion.
OH ok so you ARE telling me how I came to my views then. That's fine if it is what you believe, it's not necessarily something I appreciate you assuming but in this case I do appreciate that you honestly admitted that is exactly what you were doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
You of course would think that the internet is a good substitute for boots on the ground because that is part of your generations way of looking at the world.
Well the internet has made a massive change in communication, news, and politics worldwide to not accept that absolute fact is a bit odd especially for someone so tied to progress and change and the like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
When my stepsons (who is 30) friends made rape jokes in the past it became quite clear that generations view things differently. It doesn't mean that you are incapable of reaching more rational and reasonable conclusions than somebody of my age but it does explain the difference.
Well to paraphrase one of your responses to me 'I'm not your stepson, I'm not your stepson's friends either'. I grew up with shock jocks lewd and crude humor and the boundaries of free speech (of which there should be none) being tested constantly. I also grew up with manners, respect, and dignity all of which have their place in polite society. No geopolitical state, no political party, no gender, no age has the market cornered on idiots that is what I believe. Age could bring wisdom from experience, but experience itself has no age to it. I believe all ages, all experience levels, everyone should get the opportunity to chime in as someone who looks at a problem from a new perspective could quite possibly find the solution by not having their mind clouded from past experiences...now disaster could happen that way as well so I reckon a good balance is needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
And yes of course i mix my politics and art. I have staked almost everything on it, as have virtually all of my closest friends.
Well that is a perfectly fine and admirable (to an extent) way for you to choose to live your life. Not everyone chooses to live that way though, I certainly don't as I believe it would limit not just what art I appreciated it would limit HOW I appreciated the art. Viewing/experiencing art only through the lens of politics is something I find far too shallow. So again, I'm by no means having a pop at you or what you decide for yourself I'm just saying for me personally as an individual I like being open to different art regardless of the politics of it...what do I lose in being open to listening/experiencing that art? :dontknow: (and that's a rhetorical question so you certainly don't have to respond to it)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Benjamin is not Obama ;D and while Obama may have deserved a personal droning, Benjamin certainly deserves at least a bucket of milkshake for many reasons, selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many. The amount of racist shite Obama caught by people prefacing it with provisos that is was not because they were racist that they hated the muslim non american with the fake birth certificate made it quite clear, even from here across the pond, that he was not given the easy ride you are suggesting. I never defended the war monger but did not feel the need to pretend that Trump is not corrupt, inept and as neck deep in corruption as the Clintons and all the others.
No of course Benjamin isn't Obama he'd be treated far better if he were. You say things like "selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many" but never expound on it which that is exactly where the information I want is, so if you would be so kind as to lay out those things and I know it is difficult (as I have my problems with staying on topic as well), but try not to go off on some different rant while you pour over the specifics of your dislike for Carl I would greatly appreciate the insight that would provide me and perhaps I could then see your side of things if you aren't too jaded by this (and it's completely fine to me if you say "nah I'm too jaded in dealing with you") I'd much more appreciate that than getting into the rut of fighting again which I for one am not going to do anymore, I'd rather not post at all than go back to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
You are mistaking my not buying into the right wing propaganda as an indication that I must buy into the other end. That is not the case. Nuance, and complexity are what life is about and you will find no more nuance in the Morning Star than you will in the Daily Mail.
Well this is why I've asked you the questions I have and it's why I'm attempting to understand where exactly you're coming from. I've not done it to waste your time or personally attack you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
I never said that UKIP does not represent the people that voted for Brexit. Of course they do but no more than the tories , the labour party etc do. That is kind of the point. People across the spectrum voted quite equally to stay and leave, It literally split the nation as evidenced in the close result. How we leave and what we would do if we did was never even discussed.
Well firstly I apologize for misrepresenting your words. Now if what you've stated is the case then I guess what must be done is to A) Figure out how to carry out Brexit in a manner that hurts as few people as possible because the vote being officially recognized and consequences thereof being carried out matters and B ) answer the question (this is of the British citizens themselves) why were they handed such a poorly thought out referendum? ....of course my take on that would be that the establishment never thought Brexit would win ergo the ill conceived wording and lack of a plan for if Brexit won the vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
And yes of course you can have an opinion on British politics. I have tried for months to leave the Trump thread alone but your opinion is as valid as anyone else.
I appreciate that. I also understand that my being physically far away may not see me privy to certain information available on the ground, I do seek out unedited source material as often as possible/available to me. I'm by no means a perfect human being, I do have my opinions and they're not always going to jive with everyone else's and that is absolutely fine. This is a boxing forum we're not solving world peace anytime soon so let's keep our discussions even the political ones light and that is why I want to better understand your views and how you came to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
You have to remember though that it is American interests that are being used to shape British and European politics in an effort to make everyone hyper nationlist and isolationist. There is a right wing corporate elite push back happening and it is there because it hates the idea of cooperation and commons and community.
What of Globalization then? Is globalization the best option going forward and should it be unopposed? The British government (among many others) attempted to shape American politics in 2016. I believe there's an issue with certain corporations and yes they can hold way too much power and some are far too cozy with China which greatly disturbs me as I see that model as the route to the demise of freedom and liberty worldwide.
1/2
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
2/2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Like yourself it views even quite moderate fair capitalist ideas as communism and a threat. What Yanis proposes would represent real change and people are terrified of that. Ironically that is what those voting Brexit really have in common with many Blairite (or LIB DEM traitorous) remainers. THey want either a regression to the past or 'The same as it ever was'.
It being the "right wing corporate elite"? Yanis is a literal Marxist and while certain folks view Marx as this intellectual giant I guess mere mortals attempting to achieve his worldview have either misunderstood how it works or misrepresented it or something but every time it's tried it fails. Perhaps there's a sweet spot somehow some way that people can achieve, but I don't want to risk 100 million lives on it when I think our economic system needs a tweak here and there in order to get us working correctly. As for "regression or same as it ever was" change happens it's a part of life, but the rate at which change happens matters for cohesive nation states, for assimilation, for polite society...the migration push (and nobody can deny it's a PUSH) isn't for nothing, there's a reason for it and in my own opinion it's to destabilize nation states so that larger overarching (unaccountable to the people) governments gain more power like the EU and UN, but that's my view and yours could be completely different, you could see those things as the wave of the future and the next logical step, I don't know but it's part of why I ask questions and appreciate your honest answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
You cannot get any more establishment than Farrge the toffs and multinational corporations that installed him. He is no alternative just as UKIP the party he formed is not. Benjamin represents a desire to regress as does Tommy because change is just too challenging to them personally.
That's fine if that is what Farrage truly is. Who installed Corbyn and May? And if they are no different then where does one go as a voter? Carl Benjamin is running because his freedom of speech and part of how he earns his money have been under attack for years. Carl Benjamin was happy to play and review videogames but Gamergate happened, Feminists have made it their mission in life to destroy him, and various platforms ban or censor him....they could have just let him alone couldn't they? Even if he attempts to troll those people, they aren't required by law to notice him or react to him and ditto with Tommy. Carl and Tommy have followings for a reason, they didn't come out of nowhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Its a lot to digest, and you may find it too unpalatetable, but I have nothing to gain by telling lies.
For me the forum, like life, is kind of wasted if all we all think we can't learn anything from others.
I have found it most instructive, if baffling at times, to be surrounded by people quite unlike most of my mates and family etc.
I brought up Gandalf because he has been one of the most vocal on these things and in this thread but he is speaking from a place between us both.
Most people don't even want to speak about it so don't take me or his word for it and certainly look further away from the narrow prism of Tommy, Carl and that whole 'scene'.
It really is not very representative.
Indeed, and I appreciate your taking the time to respond honestly. I agree we should be trying to hear voices from opposing views, we should challenge our own views and be up for defending our own views as well. I too have been completely blindsided by some of the different opinions on here and there have been more than a few times I've responded incorrectly to them, I'm attempting to do better but I'll never agree 100% with anyone I don't even 100% agree with myself after a while.
I ask when you bring up other posters in a response to me because I feel (and maybe this is just me) but I perceive that causing more work for you as Gandalf or Al or myself or whomever will of course see they're mentioned, they'll then decide to respond and with 1 post you've now got 3-4 people you're having a discussion with instead of just the one and that would lead me to believe that oftentimes you might feel ganged up on because of that type of thing...but that's just an observation from me so take it for what it is worth.
Well I do frequently ask questions to myself of what Tommy, Carl, etc produce, but it's never so much more than I ask of the mainstream media as those are gigantic corporations (of which we're all rightly dubious of correct?) So it kind of piques my interest when The BBC (whom you've said are far right) bring on Carl Benjamin and attempt to demolish him in an interrogation style interview because that to me doesn't add up unless of course one is to view the BBC as the establishment and Carl Benjamin then as anti-establishment in which case should we not err on the side of the little guy or is the little guy owned and operated by the mega corporations who (and this is a bit conspiracy theory-like) are at odds with other mega corporations that run media? So that's a bit tricky for me to unravel. I do of course check out other sources but Carl is (even if you disagree with his politics) quite good at what he does. He produces good arguments and debates rather well, he's been debating all over England and sure the protesters he faces aren't the best spoken lot and maybe they get a bit of stage fright, but Carl is seemingly willing to talk to anyone and everyone, shouldn't that be the case for all politicians? I'd certainly welcome it in America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
@
El Kabong here are you questions answered in full. I posted it already. You really are quite unreasonable. I get you don't like or agree with the answers but that is not the point.
Tommy, Carl, PJW and the MSM are two sides of the same coin. They feed each other and revel in outrage and identity politics. You and many here reposting their crap are part of the same game.
I appreciate that. If you feel I'm unreasonable then that is fine you're certainly free to feel as you like. I won't bother you with my posting if you'd rather I move along to something else.
Tommy, Carl, and PJW don't have giant corporations behind them funding everything they do and demonizing and silencing everyone that dares disagree with them so they are quite different than the mainstream media. Very few corporations control our media in the United States and you've got STATE controlled media in the BBC in Britain so why not give a listen outside of that bubble? That is what I do and it better helps me digest news from the mainstream media because they DO lie by omission, they DO skew stories, they DO play favorites, and they hide things quite cleverly all of which leaves me questioning why? But hey that is me and my view and if you find me too troublesome to deal with then that is fine I'll leave you be.
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Re: Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
My questions (which still remain unanswered) are as follows:
1. What am I "outraged" about specifically?
2. To whom do I look outraged?
3. Why are Tommy Robinson & Carl Benjamin called "fascists"? (note that the question never accuses you personally of calling them that, but folks on your side certainly use the term often and I would like to know why so I can better understand their view)
4. (I'll lump all these together as they are in the same vein) Is the culture not rapidly changing? Is there not massive immigration? If all cultures ARE equal and beautiful and brilliant then what of the English culture? Is that not worth protecting?
5. How have I 'cheapened the entire concept of free speech'? which was a reference to your direct quote which was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanz
Do you not think it strange when you and Carl speak about Free speech it is in a way that cheapens and makes the concept worthless?
6. You also accused me (and Carl Benjamin) of both "shutting down the right of reply" and "telling people what they should feel" so I politely asked: Who is doing that? How are they doing it? I also asked "I can't force people to feel feelings can I?" which in this case would best be worded in question form as: Do you believe I can force people to feel feelings against their will?
7. (again I'll group these) What makes him(Carl Benjamin) a cunt? What has he (Carl) done specifically to draw your ire? What have I lied about? What has he (Carl) lied about? I'm searching my mind to figure this out. Do I use the same tactics?
I don't feel as though the questions asked were all that horrible given the apparent vitriol you still have for me. I've been quite patient and chalked up the tone of your posts to my misunderstanding the tone in which you feel you are writing....you've never addressed that which leads me to believe more that the tone you've written in is quite on purpose and therefore you're no longer operating on friendly terms with me. Which hell that's certainly your prerogative, but I'm not going to be belligerent with you and if you want to have a civil discussion then perhaps you'll correct yourself, but that's entirely up to you.
Now then, I shall address the post which you believe answered all of my questions. I do hope this is not a futile gesture, I continue to act in good faith treating you in a friendly manner and making no assumptions of you or your character which is why of course I must ask questions and gather that information in order to respond appropriately as my goal is to better understand you and your way of thinking and that is made rather difficult when you refuse to respond to simple honest questions or you respond with mordancy.
They have all been answered you just want to dictate to me what the answers should be. Look how you have people numbering questions now as though people have to jump thru hoops for you. And now you want to dictate style to me. If i choose to employ mordancy please do not take it personally or tell me to be less incisive. That just makes the whole free speech thing look fake. It's language that is all. If I thought you were a cunt do you not think giving my language and history I would not come straight out and tell you?
1. You are outraged that people can be offended. That puts you firmly on the same side of the fence as people who manufacture outrage . You should not be surprised that people can be offended and certainly not employ the same tactics or justify people like Benjamin becoming professional victims.
2. Everyone in the Universe. Nobody. Who cares? If you want to be outraged that is your call but there is an awful lot out there that will push your buttons, whoever you are. Is that the kind of stress you want in your life?
3. Because they put nationhood above the individual. This again is another example of people pressing the outrage button when they do not like people exercising the same free speech they employ to not only offend but encourage and motivate other people into repeating and expounding their rhetoric. They hate being called fascists because they think that they are not the Devil incarnate. They forget that the Fascists of Spain and Italy were clever idealists who mobilised citizens into a movement that it's members thought haled lofty ideals that would be good for their country. Like traditional fascists Robinson and Benjamin misrepresent their opponents. They use the same language of discrimination that their critics employ to claim the position of victimhood. These are people who wish to ban universtity courses they do not agree with and turn back womens, black and gay rights in order to avoid giving up their own radical right wing authoritarianism.
They share the same overriding motivation that fascists have of wanting to install an overriding power that will remove the rights of individuals. They believe in things such as too much civilization. They believe it will lead to decadence and so reject great cultural milestones like the Enlightenment preferring to advocate a divine hierarchy where a charasmatic leader is in place for racially pure peasants to follow. ( Look up Stoecker, Böckel, and Fritsch for more on this)
Often like Hitler they never hold an electoral majority but are swept into power by conservatives. They will use racial and ethnic scapegoating and tie in things like feminism with Jews and weakness.
I could go on.
Fascism did not start and end with Hitler and the Nazis and you do not need to be anti-Semitic to be a fascist.
4. English culture is only one part of British culture and English culture itself has often not only been protected by foreigners and cultural ethnic groups from outside it, but can only be defined by it's history which is ALL about immigration. To pretend you can define it in any other meaningful way is not only ignorant but deeply unpatriotic. If a culture is not rapidly changing, then it is dead, however uncomfortable that may be to contemplate. Mass Immigration is a result of actions taken by countries now moaning about it. It is a fact of life on Planet earth that we will roam and you can pretend you have more rights to a piece of land or a country than other people but it is an illusory concept like money. How do you define English culture do I get to define it or does Tommy? Or other posters here?
I treasure English culture and history but I am not so blind to think it superior to all others just like the current version of Western civilization is not either. English culture itself is often not beautiful and brilliant and so I would not expect other cultures to be defined so narrowly and crudely.
If i go into a mosque In London am I somehow less English then someone else who does not? What if i bend my knees in a Buddhist temple in Milton Keynes? what if i choose to make the call to prayer in Leeds or go to Synagogue in Exeter or Cornwall? What if i ask to not work on a Saturday am I less English then? What if I only eat hamburgers and wear a stetson and spend my weekends line dancing and playing at being a cowboy?
If i am a practicing Catholic am I less English than a protestant?
5. In the way you use free speech as a tool to defend those who would shut it down. You both use it like a cover all excuse for any kind of speech as though using it responsibly is not necessary. You deny that such a thing as hate speech exists even when it is employed to motivate people to kill based on scapegoating a race or ethnicity etc to justify that murder. If you really believed in Free speech you would welcome the idea of accepting it can be misused and has power.
6. Yes. ...;D
Of course you can force people to feel feelings. That is why speech is so powerful. You can make people afraid or excited, depressed, turned on, sickened, etc
Words are not just words and never were
CUNTY KONT FUCKKITY CRAPSHITTER WANKSTAIN DANGLEBERRIES
Not you so much but Benjamin shuts down the right to reply by editing his videos to portray those he is critical of in a way that is not representative of their position at all. His disciples do it on her all the time. So i can even say in a thread I am not in favour of political correctness and believe you can joke about anything until I am blue in the face, but they (those who use his method) will still insist that I am MR Pc because it is an easy strawman to demolish even though it does not represent my views in anyway. So you will see I am called both a sponger and part of the media elite , an SJW and a racist, a fake Jew and a Gentile hater, a little Englander and in favour of mass immigration, etc
7. I don't have any vitriol where you are concerned and I don't particularly have that much hate for Benjamin though he is without a doubt an arrogant and ignorant cunt. He loves to stick up for right wing wankers and then like Peterson call himself a classical liberal. What they both really mean is that their farts are too good for both the left and right and they inhabit some kind of intellectual and moral high ground others can only ever aspire to. Arseholes.;D
I will let you know when I make an angry post and then maybe things will be a little clearer for everyone.
