This is the future of the US........

CC, bcollins...I disagree with your views but I understand what you are trying to say.

Capitalism usually rewards hard work and inginuity and like anything else you can put evil motives behind those and you'll get some bad stuff happening.

Let me drop some psychology on you...the goal or reward is not set by the government or the rich or whatever. In work people work and they recieve money for their work....for some people the money is the goal, for some money = power the power to control your retierment, the power to look after your family, for others money = freedom...freedom from debt, freedom to take vacations to where ever, freedom to buy a new car etc. Money is not the main goal of most people, it's a way to achieve a goal whether it's paying of the mortgage or buying a badass new car...hell some people earn money to HELP OTHER PEOPLE. So there are varying outcomes of Capitalism....some people will be CEO's and make billions and hoard it all and other people like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett will be Billionaires but give back to society and hell some people at the poverty line will donate money for good causes....so just because someone has money doesn't make them greedy or

Yes some people need a little help from the government but some people need a little encouragement and you've heard the saying "you can't please everyone" Socialism and Communism try to please everyone Capitalism has some winners and they have some losers but the idea that you have a say in your destiny means a lot to me...it's the AMERICAN DREAM

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Originally Posted by Lyle

CC, bcollins...I disagree with your views but I understand what you are trying to say.

Capitalism usually rewards hard work and inginuity and like anything else you can put evil motives behind those and you'll get some bad stuff happening.

Let me drop some psychology on you...the goal or reward is not set by the government or the rich or whatever. In work people work and they recieve money for their work....for some people the money is the goal, for some money = power the power to control your retierment, the power to look after your family, for others money = freedom...freedom from debt, freedom to take vacations to where ever, freedom to buy a new car etc. Money is not the main goal of most people, it's a way to achieve a goal whether it's paying of the mortgage or buying a badass new car...hell some people earn money to HELP OTHER PEOPLE. So there are varying outcomes of Capitalism....some people will be CEO's and make billions and hoard it all and other people like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett will be Billionaires but give back to society and hell some people at the poverty line will donate money for good causes....so just because someone has money doesn't make them greedy or

Yes some people need a little help from the government but some people need a little encouragement and you've heard the saying "you can't please everyone" Socialism and Communism try to please everyone Capitalism has some winners and they have some losers but the idea that you have a say in your destiny means a lot to me...it's the AMERICAN DREAM

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CC back. Very mature discussion - I love it when we can talk about topics without resorting to insults. I agree with the greatness of a system that allows us the freedom to pursue whatever might make us happy. I agree 100% there. I just think that the uneven distribution of wealth that results from capitalism creates a lot of tension that could be avoided with a little more temperence in the system. I think the powers that be in our country have lost sight of what's important - it's pretty plain that accumulation of wealth is the order of the day, rather than putting what wealth we already have to good use. And I know there are examples of philanthropy both by private citizens and the government, but I feel we could do a lot more in the pursuit of happiness for our citizens as a whole. We're just out of balance a bit. I'd like to see our leaders focus on some of the domestic issues we have more so than worrying about how we can make a buck off of some other country.

Definitely not a simple problem - there are entirely too many variables to be considered.

I think what you listed is more of a problem on a person to person basis. Some people thrive in Capitalism and some people flounder.

I think charity is something to be done out of the goodness of one's heart and having the government redistribute wealth creates resentment and cheapens the actual gift to those who are struggling. Are you going to feel all warm and cuddly watching someone cash a welfare check or are you going to feel better having a community of people rally around people who are less fortunate?

Welfare creates a sense of entitlement IMO and I think there is more power in working and achieving goals than just having stuff handed out to you. This is why something like Habitat For Humanity is great (eventhough Jimmy Carter made it) you work you build and you see a result and the people you help also build with you and they have real ownership in the finished product, it's a great charity.


And it is great to have debates without resulting to name calling and petty bickering, I do enjoy it

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Originally Posted by LEGION

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I love how someone who is BRITISH thinks I am anti-American....pretty odd seeing how I vote, pay taxes, and grew up here.

You must have had quite a visit over here to become so opinionated about American politics

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http://cache.boston.com/images/bosto...flag_08_31.jpg

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Want to explain that picture? Or are you just implying Lyle should just give up? Just curious if there is something more to it?

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I'm waiting for him to reply to me instead of ranting, but it looks like Monsieur Lylé has surrendered.

I have answered your posts, you insist on calling me anti-American and I have asked why and you have posted pictures of a beret, a frog, and a white flag thus implying you have poor taste in hats, you like amphibians, and you surrender.

But seriously why do you call me anti-American? I have grown up here in America, I vote, I pay taxes, I care about my country and the citizens that live in this great nation with me. I can disagree and have nice discussions with some people and other people I cannot enjoy such pleasantries with people who berate me and my dedication to my country. I know the United States has an image that isn't good in today's world but our country is conflicted with many issues and it's not easy to be a citizen and watch these things happen. These issues are exacerbated by the partisanship in American politics (which is a reason I like Mike Huckabee for President instead of anyone else)....this nation will correct itself but our image will not change in several people's eyes....we're viewed with contempt in many places because of what we have and the idea that all Americans are pompus dolts who don't care about the world as a whole. Why would we bother to care about what everyone thinks about us when the world has a preconception of how Americans are.

Listen KL you can post all your numbers and whatever and I understand it, I am not pleased that America has a national debt nor that I will be a part of paying back that debt, I understand that and I am not happy about it but my views do not change, they haven't changed, but I have not made the bad decisions that would be the neo-cons who made those decisions and that's very different from what I represent.

And maybe I am ranting again but it's very important you understand that I do not like what George W. Bush has done, I do not appreciate the small force sent to take over and control an entire country, I do not appreciate the fact that the American people have been asked to sacrifice nothing while we're at war.

You can post anything you want to but it does not affect what I feel about my country and nothing you have posted has affected my political views and believe me I have thought about it.

I think we're all guilty of joking about political issues - I know I am - but these really are serious issues and problems that do need to be addressed and discussed. I know I can talk about it them all day and it ends up as so much hot air, but it is important to talk about these things.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I have answered your posts, you insist on calling me anti-American and I have asked why and you have posted pictures of a beret, a frog, and a white flag thus implying you have poor taste in hats, you like amphibians, and you surrender.

But seriously why do you call me anti-American? I have grown up here in America, I vote, I pay taxes, I care about my country and the citizens that live in this great nation with me. I can disagree and have nice discussions with some people and other people I cannot enjoy such pleasantries with people who berate me and my dedication to my country. I know the United States has an image that isn't good in today's world but our country is conflicted with many issues and it's not easy to be a citizen and watch these things happen. These issues are exacerbated by the partisanship in American politics (which is a reason I like Mike Huckabee for President instead of anyone else)....this nation will correct itself but our image will not change in several people's eyes....we're viewed with contempt in many places because of what we have and the idea that all Americans are pompus dolts who don't care about the world as a whole. Why would we bother to care about what everyone thinks about us when the world has a preconception of how Americans are.

Listen KL you can post all your numbers and whatever and I understand it, I am not pleased that America has a national debt nor that I will be a part of paying back that debt, I understand that and I am not happy about it but my views do not change, they haven't changed, but I have not made the bad decisions that would be the neo-cons who made those decisions and that's very different from what I represent.

And maybe I am ranting again but it's very important you understand that I do not like what George W. Bush has done, I do not appreciate the small force sent to take over and control an entire country, I do not appreciate the fact that the American people have been asked to sacrifice nothing while we're at war.

You can post anything you want to but it does not affect what I feel about my country and nothing you have posted has affected my political views and believe me I have thought about it.

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But when we discuss what America is actually doing domestically/internationally you don't want to discuss specifics. When confronted with pesky facts you do everything but answer the question. You do answer, but it's just post after post of the same stuff.

Well how much say over what W has done do I have? How much control over spending do I have? I vote for people who don't want to spend so damn much and that's about all I can do....I don't understand what you want me to respond with other than I don't agree with everything the United States does or has done in the past. I don't know of anyone who does agree with everything the United States does or has done.

So how would you prefer that I answer? Would you like for me to dig up numeric facts to support my political beliefs?

My beliefs are just mine, I won't agree with everyone, and I suppose I am considered wrong by many people including yourself. However, I am sticking by my BELIEFS and sometimes there are not polls and pie charts to support them.


Does that help?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Well how much say over what W has done do I have? How much control over spending do I have? I vote for people who don't want to spend so damn much and that's about all I can do....I don't understand what you want me to respond with other than I don't agree with everything the United States does or has done in the past. I don't know of anyone who does agree with everything the United States does or has done.

So how would you prefer that I answer? Would you like for me to dig up numeric facts to support my political beliefs?

My beliefs are just mine, I won't agree with everyone, and I suppose I am considered wrong by many people including yourself. However, I am sticking by my BELIEFS and sometimes there are not polls and pie charts to support them.


Does that help?

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That's great, but you should accept that your beliefs can be challenged using facts. The problem then becomes one where one of us is stating facts and the other one is stating his beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Well how much say over what W has done do I have? How much control over spending do I have? I vote for people who don't want to spend so damn much and that's about all I can do....I don't understand what you want me to respond with other than I don't agree with everything the United States does or has done in the past. I don't know of anyone who does agree with everything the United States does or has done.

So how would you prefer that I answer? Would you like for me to dig up numeric facts to support my political beliefs?

My beliefs are just mine, I won't agree with everyone, and I suppose I am considered wrong by many people including yourself. However, I am sticking by my BELIEFS and sometimes there are not polls and pie charts to support them.
Does that help?

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He can't argue with that,now can he ?

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Originally Posted by USA LOVES THE KLITSCHKOS

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Well how much say over what W has done do I have? How much control over spending do I have? I vote for people who don't want to spend so damn much and that's about all I can do....I don't understand what you want me to respond with other than I don't agree with everything the United States does or has done in the past. I don't know of anyone who does agree with everything the United States does or has done.

So how would you prefer that I answer? Would you like for me to dig up numeric facts to support my political beliefs?

My beliefs are just mine, I won't agree with everyone, and I suppose I am considered wrong by many people including yourself. However, I am sticking by my BELIEFS and sometimes there are not polls and pie charts to support them.
Does that help?

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He can't argue with that,now can he ?

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Not without using those pesky facts.

So I am not allowed to have beliefs without having a bunch of stats behind them?


So if someone asks if I am Pro-Life or Pro-Choice I say something regarding how many abortions happened the previous year? OR how many jobs and how much money providing abortions gives the US.....we certainly lose taxes because life is being taken but as you can imagine it's not the crux of the debate.


Besides you really haven't asked questions as much as you have asked for my opinion on certain statistics you have dug up...I gave you my opinion on your stats because anytime I posted any facts you say it's from a baised source.

You can ask for facts all you want to but all you have done is ask for my opinion on your numbers, you never asked me to provide any of my own, however:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html

If the estimated net fiscal drain of $2,736 a year that each illegal household imposes on the federal treasury is multiplied by the nearly three million illegal households, the total cost comes to $10.4 billion a year.


I wasn't able to post the tables but they are there....so just check those out...but I am sure that it won't matter as you'll find some issue with who provided those facts.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

So I am not allowed to have beliefs without having a bunch of stats behind them?


So if someone asks if I am Pro-Life or Pro-Choice I say something regarding how many abortions happened the previous year? OR how many jobs and how much money providing abortions gives the US.....we certainly lose taxes because life is being taken but as you can imagine it's not the crux of the debate.


Besides you really haven't asked questions as much as you have asked for my opinion on certain statistics you have dug up...I gave you my opinion on your stats because anytime I posted any facts you say it's from a baised source.

You can ask for facts all you want to but all you have done is ask for my opinion on your numbers, you never asked me to provide any of my own, however:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html

If the estimated net fiscal drain of $2,736 a year that each illegal household imposes on the federal treasury is multiplied by the nearly three million illegal households, the total cost comes to $10.4 billion a year.


I wasn't able to post the tables but they are there....so just check those out...but I am sure that it won't matter as you'll find some issue with who provided those facts.

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Even if they cost ten billion a year it's a drop in the bucket, an irrelevancy. It's $33 a year for every existing American versus increased costs of hundreds of dollars a year just on your food bill if we took ten million bodies out of the economy. Ten billion in a thirteen trillion economy is a rounding error. You're spending that every week in Iraq to keep a bunch of Iranian-backed terrorists in power. You'll spend twenty times that in a few years when you set up a legal mass-immigration program to process all those people.

Now who's ranting?

You have offered no solutions to these issues, other than "America runs on cheap labor".....yeah but historically it has been cheap AMERICAN labor and not imported poor people to work for petty wages....well not since the time of slavery.

Sure we're a nation of immigrants but people assimilated, Germans, Russians, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, etc....they didn't totally forget their cultures but they came to America to become Americans and they took pride in that.

I guess we're past all the formalities now and we need to just be overrun with idiots from other countries...people who don't get educated, people who live in poverty, people who have brought the worst gang violence into this country since the Mafia!

San Diego just put up a border fence and it's crime rate dropped around 50% due to less illegal immigrants crossing from Tiajuana to San Diego....but as long as YOU (who don't even live remotely close to the United States right now) don't see an issue with increased crime then I guess we're ok.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Now who's ranting?

You have offered no solutions to these issues, other than "America runs on cheap labor".....yeah but historically it has been cheap AMERICAN labor and not imported poor people to work for petty wages....well not since the time of slavery.

Sure we're a nation of immigrants but people assimilated, Germans, Russians, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, etc....they didn't totally forget their cultures but they came to America to become Americans and they took pride in that.

I guess we're past all the formalities now and we need to just be overrun with idiots from other countries...people who don't get educated, people who live in poverty, people who have brought the worst gang violence into this country since the Mafia!

San Diego just put up a border fence and it's crime rate dropped around 50% due to less illegal immigrants crossing from Tiajuana to San Diego....but as long as YOU (who don't even live remotely close to the United States right now) don't see an issue with increased crime then I guess we're ok.

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Five sentences is not a rant. Five paragraphs of empty blather (at least) every time you reply, however, is.

Where to start with this one? America hasn't imported people to work for slave wages? How about all the actual slaves you imported? Are we both talking about the same America here? Hispanic people assimilate just as fast as your ancestors assimilated when they pitched up. And whenever that was, the racist assholes among the people there already used the same racist tropes on your ancestors. Italians, Irish, even Germans got exactly the same bs as Mexicans are now getting. It was bs now and it's bs then. You can't seriously be affected by $33 a year so you must be worried about your employment prospects. So be an American, stop whining and better yourself. You can be damn sure all these Undocumenteds are doing that. Who's going to be better off in 40 years, you or them?