Lets end the Mike Tyson debate

Too many "what ifs" with Tyson. Pretty much excuses for the shortcomings the whole world saw during his career. Its like saying that if Hatton had a better defence he would have beaten Floyd and Manny and thus become an ATG. Truth is he didn't and Mike couldn't overcome his own hubris. That to me is the biggest nail in his coffin, when you try to say that he beats so and so. Ali, Foreman, Marciano, Louis, etc. were deep down bona fide bad motherfuckers and would not fall for all the street bullshit that worked on lesser fighters and carried away fans.

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Originally Posted by jahmez

Too many "what ifs" with Tyson. Pretty much excuses for the shortcomings the whole world saw during his career. Its like saying that if Hatton had a better defence he would have beaten Floyd and Manny and thus become an ATG. Truth is he didn't and Mike couldn't overcome his own hubris. That to me is the biggest nail in his coffin, when you try to say that he beats so and so. Ali, Foreman, Marciano, Louis, etc. were deep down bona fide bad motherfuckers and would not fall for all the street bullshit that worked on lesser fighters and carried away fans.

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Cant argue with that really. Doesn't take away from 44 KO's, 23 (I believe) in the first round tho. I don't even think Foreman could match 20+ first round KO's in his 80 fights.

Your right tho about the what if's. What if Tyson was mentally stronger? What if Tyson wouldn't have bit Holyfields ear off? What if Tyson would have came into the first Holyfield fight like he did the second? What if he didn't go to prison?

He could have been much greater that's for sure.

Hs first round "walking and talking knockouts" were just that!! Hand picked opponents who were doomed!!! If he couldn't dispatch those guys he was taking a step back!!! Alot of his early opponents came from the leading "trial horse" camp in the world!!! Those wins are for a record book, other than reading that crap once their worthless print!! Ray.

Tyson was good at smashing cans i give him that but he beat some good contenders as well and unified a divsion which is good. He just missd out on his big wins like Holyfeild and Lewis to be top guy of the 90's not to mention the lose to Douglas hurts him kinda bad.

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Originally Posted by cambay411

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Could Holyfield have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

When Holy was Cruiserweight Champ, the limit was 190 lbs, but Holyfield usually weighed in several lbs under at 186 lbs, 187, 188 lbs.
Holy wasn't sweating off lbs to make weight, he came in under, and he was like 25 years old at the time.

In April 1988, Holyfield scaled 190 lbs against Carlos DeLeon for his final Cruiserweight fight.
In Dec 1988, Holyfield scaled 212 lbs ripped against Pinklon Thomas.

Mr.Olympia legend Lee Haney was in charge of bulking up Holyfield back then.

Holyfield was a Great fighter, but how much did the steroids contribute? Steroids won't make a good fighter into a Great fighter, but I wonder how much did it contribute, and could he have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

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Roids can definitely be the difference between a good fighter and a great fighter. You take any fighter and give them extra strength, speed and stamina and they will go up a level at least. Especially if they are a smart fighter.

Holyfield would have been great anyway but it could have been the difference in some fights as much as I hate to say it. IF he used roids I would loose much respect for him and that hurts me bad cause I LOVE Hoyfield.

I say "if he used roids" and I hope im not just in denial.

It really makes you think tho, how many ATG's have used roids?

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I actually just saw an inter view with Tyson where he said if he could do it all over again he would use steroids to enhance his ability, if he said that makes you think how many guys out there do it, considering most boxers have a whatever it takes mentality

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

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That's crazy and niave. Shit that makes you stronger, faster, and gives you more stamina (EPO) OF COURSE will add to a fighter.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

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That's crazy and niave. Shit that makes you stronger, faster, and gives you more stamina (EPO) OF COURSE will add to a fighter.

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Then why wasn't shane mosley the best ever?
In boxing, it is still all about being ring smart and courageous (because to be a great fighter, to put it all together, you dare punches, go to them and let them miss by a hair) Big muscles don't give you big balls or big brains.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

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That's crazy and niave. Shit that makes you stronger, faster, and gives you more stamina (EPO) OF COURSE will add to a fighter.

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Then why wasn't shane mosley the best ever?
In boxing, it is still all about being ring smart and courageous (because to be a great fighter, to put it all together, you dare punches, go to them and let them miss by a hair) Big muscles don't give you big balls or big brains.

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Because most other people were doing them no doubt.I'm on the fence on this one because there are and have been fighters in the past and to a lesser extent today where steroids wont make a difference in the outcome. In an odd way that may be why they take them.They simply have no shot without them.

If they improve bat rotation, pitch speed and distance coverage by a short stop then they will improve power, hand speed and reflexes in boxing. Is that enough at the highest level? As you say probably not which makes boxing unique among sports.

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

Ask Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones if PED's can make the difference between good and great.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

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No one said shit about JMM being on roids until he came out for the last Pac fight shredded. And what a coincidence, he finally got the ko.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

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Morrison wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like Lennox.
Vargas wasn't a cream of the crop fighter De La Hoya
Vinny Pazienza wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like Roy Jones.
Sonnen wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like Silva
Sean Sherk wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like BJ Penn.

Most of these guys wouldn't have made it to that level without roids.

So where does roids come into the picture when it comes to cream vs cream?

It does not because most of the cream is on the shit anyway i mean if all these people been using for so long never been caught. How are we to know that they never use if they never got caught during a fight. All the people were most caught after words not during or before the fight so shit hard to say right.

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Ask Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones if PED's can make the difference between good and great.

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Boxing isn't baseball, $#!tbrains...