Wladimir plans to box for 10 more years to break Joe louis' record

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Wald biggest problem is his brother because there is like different divisions i mean Wald pretty much been guy now for a few years but never beat best guy in his era. Also he lost to journeyman from the 90's and lost to to contenders from the 90's. This era is shit because it came after best era there has been pretty much bad timing for it. Also Vitali was not able to have the torch passed down because lost to old Lewis who was kinda on the chubbier side and was most likely ending his career at 38. This era could do well in most but it just had to come after a great era which was the 90's the 80's had the same problem as well Larry Holmes really does not get his dues because he followed Ali era but was just as good. So the reason this era is hated is because followed one of best eras the torch was not passed and Americans are kinda weak in hw department.

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Well I can agree with a lot of that. The 90's era did set the bar very highly for the subsequent one.

I don't think the Vitali/Lewis affair takes anything from Vitali's legacy. Nobody watching the coverage of boxing at that time who was a neutral observer can fail to ascertain otherwise that Lewis was still on his game, the fight was highly controversial and Vitali retired Lewis after watching the destruction of top contender Johnson so easily.

Not that I'm taking anything away from Lewis here either, I fully accept that the fight had to be stopped in favour of Lewis but it should definitely have been a rematch. One that I don't think Lewis would have won. Neither did Lewis obviously.

Who would have won out of Vitali/Lennox at their personal best so to speak is imo an up in the air topic.

Vitali Klitschko is the easiest boxer of all to defend. He never suffered a non-controversial loss, and there were only 2 such instances anyway against Byrd and Lewis who were both champs. Unlike Lewis who lost to lesser guys without controversy and struggled with others who Vitali would have just wasted. He was never knocked down let alone out. Never lost more than 2 rounds or was behind on points in any fight, fought absolute monsters and guys with cracker records.

On top of all that he simply, without nonsense, beat the absolute living shit out of all of his opponents! And not in boring or controversial fashion like his brother either, his fights were spectacular to watch!

I can defend Lewis and Wlad equally but there is also an excellent case for Vitali Klitschko as the GOAT HW. Probably the easiest case to defend! For the time 03 to his first retirement, I don't think there was a HW in history who could have beaten him, neither Lewis or Wlad.

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Yes he was!

Against Sanders at the end of the first;)

I'm not specifically insisting that Vitali IS the GOAT at all.

I'm simply saying there is an excellent case for him and he is easy to defend. The most serious opponent to defend him against is Lewis of course.

Against Bowe, Bowe never beat anybody even remotely on Vitali's level or even fought one!

Holyfield is too small and lacking in power to get a win over Vitali who was not a slob like Bowe in their second fight.

Tyson became increasingly challenged the taller+skilled and heftier his opponents got and they don't come much more in that category than Vitali.

Wladimir was considered the faster, more agile and powerful brother but Vitali it can easily be argued was tougher and more durable and had better fighting heart.

Lewis was not that old, not that fat. at 37 which is not very old for a giant HW with his style and slightly chubby he was only 5lbs heavier than his best weight and certainly seem like, as Lewis himself was telling everyone, in great form/shape.

The main problem Lennox faced was the year inactivity but I'm sure he was sparring regularly ince he was actually due to face top contender Johnson for months prior. You can't accuse Lewis of not being properly prepared for Vitali because Vitali himself took the fight on only 2 weeks notice!

Can't make out like Lewis was a decrepit old man because he definitely was not and that was at a time when Lewis had his entire wealth of experience behind him and Vitali did not!

As for the stoppage, fair enough, but what was the likely hood of Vitali being cut like that again? Pretty much zero! It wasn't even from the power of a punch they were from edge glove blows and an elbow respectively right! Any ground made back by Lewis at all at the end of that fight was only due to Vitali's face falling off.

I'm a Lewis fan myself but I can admit that without that big piece of luck there... He was fucked that night! lol Body language said it all afterward, immense relief from Lewis, outrage from Vitali! Gasping for breath from Lewis, Hunger from Vitali. You seen the fight right? One of the greatest HW fights ever!

So no, it's not easy to dismiss V. Klitschko at all.

As for quitting against Byrd.. Shameful to be sure, I consider that a burn to his reputation but considering he could have won that fight without throwing another single punch I' give him a pass on that one.

Lewis DID retire because he knew he'd be in a sorry state the next time. Remember Rahman and McCall got him, Vitali is much more dangerous than them.

Vitali is not slow at all, where did you get that! I've never once seen Vitali out-worked, even in his LOSING fights!

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Originally Posted by Max Power

Yeah I know he generates lots of money, so tell me then why is Wlad protected only. Wasn't Lennox and Tyson protected similarly also?

I have watched Wladimir's fights and I'll give it to you that the Povetkin fight was too much but I've seen nothing else in his previous fights that I deem to be "illegal" or "cheating".

I'm sorry, I have seen what can definitely be described as boring but nothing more sinister.

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You believe Tyson and Lewis were allowed to cheat to the extent that wlad does?

And el kabong already gave us another fight that was completely full of illegal tactics that he was allowed to get away with, although that was a boxing master class apparently

And yep the is a lot more sinister, he generates millions and millions of pounds when he fights, much more than his challengers ever would, think people in charge wouldn't do what they can to keep him winning?

It's clear as day to me that is happening, in fact it's horrendously blatent

I think Holyfeild could easily out point him on his best nights i think Holyfeild at his best can win against any Heavyweight to compete. He had his ups and downs but his resume pretty damn good him beating Bowie in the rematch when he actual fought smart is better then anything Brothers have done. They are not crap fighters and there good and all but Lewis at 38 is no spring chicken and not all fighters can keep going at high ages. Let me tell you this Lewis was considering retiring before Vatili even fought him he was worth over 100 million dollars and i am pretty sure the hunger was gone which is a big deal. Anyhow like i said before there loses against the old guard and not fighting one another kinda makes the hw division a joke. Reason being the best never fought one another not blaming them but kinda takes away from you being champ when there a guy as good as you looks like you and you guys cant fight.

I love Holyfield, and I rank him right up there with the best. His most startling performance was Tyson, he had his number! Then again he never fought a prime Tyson so we don't know do we.

What I do know though is that Holyfield was not a skilled giant killer.

He was decisively beaten by Lewis 2ce I reckon and never convincingly beat Bowe in the 2nd fight either. Similarly with the brothers, Vitali would come off top against Holyfield in what would have been a tremendous battle but Vitali was better than Bowe was imo. Wladimir is just too long, fast, slick and powerful for Holyfield. I think it could possibly have contained many jabs and many hugs lol.

But Holyfield was good and had the heart. I just have many reservations about how he'd generally perform against Lewis or the brothers.

Vitali I happen to think would beat him the most decisively because he can be both strategic and rough (so could Lewis but Lewis didn't respond as well to taking a punch so much just like Wlad).

He plans to but tyson fury will knock him out

Holyfeild Clearly won the rematch with Bowie should go watch the fight by the time he fought Lewis he was 37 years old and kinda showing some where. The rematch you can say waht you want but i thought it was a draw he made it pretty good affair for his age and giving up 30 pounds as well.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

I love Holyfield, and I rank him right up there with the best. His most startling performance was Tyson, he had his number! Then again he never fought a prime Tyson so we don't know do we.

What I do know though is that Holyfield was not a skilled giant killer.

He was decisively beaten by Lewis 2ce I reckon and never convincingly beat Bowe in the 2nd fight either. Similarly with the brothers, Vitali would come off top against Holyfield in what would have been a tremendous battle but Vitali was better than Bowe was imo. Wladimir is just too long, fast, slick and powerful for Holyfield. I think it could possibly have contained many jabs and many hugs lol.

But Holyfield was good and had the heart. I just have many reservations about how he'd generally perform against Lewis or the brothers.

Vitali I happen to think would beat him the most decisively because he can be both strategic and rough (so could Lewis but Lewis didn't respond as well to taking a punch so much just like Wlad).

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No he wasnt. The first fight was a draw, most thought it wasnt. The rematch should have been Holyfields or at least a draw but because the judges felt under pressure because of the media furore over the decision in the first fight.

Out of the two fights the second was the clearest but for Holyfield.

Now he's saying that Vitali has a case for the GOAT HW. Just when I thought he couldn't get any dumber.

Lewis's resume destroys Vitali's. Lewis beat Holyfield, Tyson, Ruddock, Bruno, Morrison, Golota, Briggs, Vitali, and Tua. Hell, I think Holyfield's resume is also better than Vitali's. He beat Foreman, Tyson, Bowe, and Dokes. Even Tyson has a better resume, with wins over Holmes and Spinks.

Vitali got rocked by Corrie Sanders.

Thing is Corrie is Vatilis best win and he was not even fighting full time he was fucking golfing. The Brothers are good but lack a lot on the resume. When Bryde, Haye, and Sanders are the best you got its really hard to see how you can be ranked because those fighters are kinda meh nothing great really.

Tyson and Holyfield were outstanding names on Lewis' resume you listed but the others were of comparable quality to Vitali's own opponents.

Arreola and Morrison quite comparable for instance. You underrate Vitalis opponents.

When you see that Holyfield was shortly after beaten by Ruiz and Tyson was shortly after beaten by Williams and McBride it becomes more evident that these guys were probably not at their historical best were they.

Yeah I rate Lewis' opponents highly but I wouldn't say they were super special compared with Vitali's opponents. Vitali's performance was more flawless against his too.

I find it difficult to imagine Vitali not cleaning up against Lewis' opponents too and vice verse.

Tyson did not have anywhere near as good a resume as Vitali, get outa here! :rolleyes:

Michael Spinks! That's like saying Adamek was Vitali's best opponent.

VG, in terms of accomplishment, Vitali is nowhere near the best of all time but if we are talking about H2H matchups, Vitali has a strong case as one of the most unbeatables ever..

This is a giant who realizes his limitations and knows how to utlilize his height/reach to a tee.. HIs lean-back defense would be too difficult for anybody to penetrate except for few great SuperHWs such as Lewis and maybe Bowe on his best night.

H2H i would say Lewis is #1 followed by Vitali..

Admek was shit at Lhw who did he ever beat worth a shit really and Dawson owning was embarrassing. So please don't mention Spinks with Admek please there was a huge difference in talent. Also all you have are ifs with Vatili i mean big deal Holyfeild was 40 years of age and up for most of his loses. The one you brought up was pretty much a man who should of retired. When your still depends on speed and out put those are kinda the things to go when you get older so he was not close to same fighter.

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Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita

VG, in terms of accomplishment, Vitali is nowhere near the best of all time but if we are talking about H2H matchups, Vitali has a strong case as one of the most unbeatables ever..

This is a giant who realizes his limitations and knows how to utlilize his height/reach to a tee.. HIs lean-back defense would be too difficult for anybody to penetrate except for few great SuperHWs such as Lewis and maybe Bowe on his best night.

H2H i would say Lewis is #1 followed by Vitali..

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And I wouldn't argue there either, the case can also be flipped around quite easily for Lewis.