60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.

These kind of threads are interesting to a point as i believe a lot of opinions are based on their dislike of Ali personally. With that being said, every era has it's Champions and also rans, Ali in the 60's made his oponents look like fools, does this make them all poor opposition? ( Remember people were saying Liston was Invincible at the time) Patterson was a two time champ and yet Ali beat them easily!
In the 70's big George was going to reign for ten years, he was a monster that could not be stopped and what happened Ali beat him! Tyson in the 80's will be HW champ forever they all said until a big lug called Buster Douglas came along and turned out the lights!
It is impossible to compare era's in the HW division as we now have fighters weighing in at over 240- 250lbs.
IMO there should be a Super HW division! 240lb and over.

I don't hate Ali.....I respect him as a fighter, he is a great....I don't LIKE him but I respect him.


That being said fighters that could jab and move gave Ali more trouble than the plodding power punchers.....KEN NORTON he was strong and athletic....more awkward than anything but he gave Ali trouble and beat him. Hell Billy Daniels did very well vs Ali before a cut stopped the fight. You match that against Liston, Foreman, and Shavers and you'll see the truth.

Joe Frazier was the exception and if Mike Tyson had the heart of Frazier hell yeah he'd destroy Ali and I don't think anyone would doubt that but we all know he was completely lacking in that area.




The Superheavyweight issue is moot considering Jess Willard and Primo Carnera amongst others fought waaaay long ago

Again this has to be pointed out,we're discussing the 60's Ali in his 20's,not the 70's Ali in his 30's

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.

He was involved in two fights of the year as recognised by 'The Ring' and his career was abruptly put on hold in 1967 - I have no doubt that he would have got better and better if allowed to box out the remaining years of the decade.

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.

He was involved in two fights of the year as recognised by 'The Ring' and his career was abruptly put on hold in 1967 - I have no doubt that he would have got better and better if allowed to box out the remaining years of the decade.

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Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.


No it isn't Ali struggled with much lesser fighters than Bowe, a 100 percent in shape Bowe would give Ali all he could handle.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.


He already did beat him ;)

Nah but seriously Holmes could very well beat Ali he had piston left jab, great chin, great stamina, fast hands, good power, Ali has never met anyone who was as skilled as Holmes and vice a versa.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.


Liston was actually almost 40 years old when Ali fought him, Patterson was great at Light Heavyweight etc. But he didn't have the chin at Heavyweight plus he was too small.

Williams was not that good the only thing he was known for before Ali fight was getting sparked out twice by Liston, and going 1-1 with Ernie Terell. Plus he was 33 so he wasn't exactly in his peak.

Chuvalo was tough as nails but he wasn't a great boxer, going into Ali fight his best wins were against Yvon Durelle who was much better at Light Heavyweight, and Doug Jones.

Folley was goodish he beat few good names like Bonavena but lets not forget Bonavena only had 8 pro fights at the time. Plus others like Chuvalo, ETC. but he also went 1-1 with Henry Cooper so that shows you he wasn't exactly elite. Plus he got sparked out by Liston, a 12-1 fighter, and sparked out by Doug Jones, Folley was goodish but thats it.

Terrell bet few good names going into Ali fight and he was on nice win streak but i never thought much of Terrell.

All these fighters are goodish to mediocre none of them were ever really elite. Except for Patterson and Liston of course.

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.

He was involved in two fights of the year as recognised by 'The Ring' and his career was abruptly put on hold in 1967 - I have no doubt that he would have got better and better if allowed to box out the remaining years of the decade.

---

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.


No it isn't Ali struggled with much lesser fighters than Bowe, a 100 percent in shape Bowe would give Ali all he could handle.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.


He already did beat him ;)

Nah but seriously Holmes could very well beat Ali he had piston left jab, great chin, great stamina, fast hands, good power, Ali has never met anyone who was as skilled as Holmes and vice a versa.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.


Liston was actually almost 40 years old when Ali fought him, Patterson was great at Light Heavyweight etc. But he didn't have the chin at Heavyweight plus he was too small.

Williams was not that good the only thing he was known for before Ali fight was getting sparked out twice by Liston, and going 1-1 with Ernie Terell. Plus he was 33 so he wasn't exactly in his peak.

Chuvalo was tough as nails but he wasn't a great boxer, going into Ali fight his best wins were against Yvon Durelle who was much better at Light Heavyweight, and Doug Jones.

Folley was goodish he beat few good names like Bonavena but lets not forget Bonavena only had 8 pro fights at the time. Plus others like Chuvalo, ETC. but he also went 1-1 with Henry Cooper so that shows you he wasn't exactly elite. Plus he got sparked out by Liston, a 12-1 fighter, and sparked out by Doug Jones, Folley was goodish but thats it.

Terrell bet few good names going into Ali fight and he was on nice win streak but i never thought much of Terrell.

All these fighters are goodish to mediocre none of them were ever really elite. Except for Patterson and Liston of course.

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Haha I had to laugh at the way you have just flipantly rubbished some of the best Heavyweights in the history of the division - you make them sound like bums.

There isn't much point in debating with you as you don't know what your talking about. I'm guessing your a teenager who only got interested in Boxing cos Audley Harrison won the Olympic Gold medal.

1st you rubbish Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents and now Muhammad Ali - unbelievable. ::**

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.

He was involved in two fights of the year as recognised by 'The Ring' and his career was abruptly put on hold in 1967 - I have no doubt that he would have got better and better if allowed to box out the remaining years of the decade.

---

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.


No it isn't Ali struggled with much lesser fighters than Bowe, a 100 percent in shape Bowe would give Ali all he could handle.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.


He already did beat him ;)

Nah but seriously Holmes could very well beat Ali he had piston left jab, great chin, great stamina, fast hands, good power, Ali has never met anyone who was as skilled as Holmes and vice a versa.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.


Liston was actually almost 40 years old when Ali fought him, Patterson was great at Light Heavyweight etc. But he didn't have the chin at Heavyweight plus he was too small.

Williams was not that good the only thing he was known for before Ali fight was getting sparked out twice by Liston, and going 1-1 with Ernie Terell. Plus he was 33 so he wasn't exactly in his peak.

Chuvalo was tough as nails but he wasn't a great boxer, going into Ali fight his best wins were against Yvon Durelle who was much better at Light Heavyweight, and Doug Jones.

Folley was goodish he beat few good names like Bonavena but lets not forget Bonavena only had 8 pro fights at the time. Plus others like Chuvalo, ETC. but he also went 1-1 with Henry Cooper so that shows you he wasn't exactly elite. Plus he got sparked out by Liston, a 12-1 fighter, and sparked out by Doug Jones, Folley was goodish but thats it.

Terrell bet few good names going into Ali fight and he was on nice win streak but i never thought much of Terrell.

All these fighters are goodish to mediocre none of them were ever really elite. Except for Patterson and Liston of course.

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Haha I had to laugh at the way you have just flipantly rubbished some of the best Heavyweights in the history of the division - you make them sound like bums.

There isn't much point in debating with you as you don't know what your talking about. I'm guessing your a teenager who only got interested in Boxing cos Audley Harrison won the Olympic Gold medal.

1st you rubbish Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents and now Muhammad Ali - unbelievable. ::**

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Haha I had to laugh at the way you have just flipantly rubbished some of the best Heavyweights in the history of the division - you make them sound like bums.

Some of the best Heavyweights in history :lolhaha:

Most of those fighters wouldn't even make it into Heavyweight top 20 list on most experts list's.

Infact i'll give you 20 Heavyweights right now that are rated higher higher than all those Heavyweights except for Patterson and Liston of course. This list isn't in order.

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Larry Holmes
Sam Langford
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Evander Holyfield
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Jim Jeffries
Mike Tyson
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
John L. Sullivan
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Joe Jeannette

Need i go on ?? and they were just the ones that come to mind in a few seconds if i really thought about it i could name at least 30 who are higher.

There isn't much point in debating with you as you don't know what your talking about. I'm guessing your a teenager who only got interested in Boxing cos Audley Harrison won the Olympic Gold medal.

Point out one thing where i was wrong ?? i think your find everything i said was facts, the only reason you aren't debating is because you have no counter argument.

I have been following boxing for about 10 years im 18, and i also do amateur boxing and i know a lot about the sport so don't try insult me because you don't agree with me.

1st you rubbish Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents and now Muhammad Ali - unbelievable.

Umm actually Scrap implied that Robinson's opposition wasn't that great at Welterweight, and i said his opposition at Welterweight is questionable but i also said i haven't seen his fights at Welterweight, so i can't really comment on it so i asked Scrap for his opinion because he has seen Robinson's fights at Welterweight stop me if im wrong ??

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

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So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

---

Why are you bringing up things non related to this thread ?? its well known fact Ali had smelling salts that wern't allowed in UK at that time its not an opinion its a fact. I don't know what was in Aaron Pryor's drink so we can only speculate, im no expert on what is mixed in drinks. But all the things you *think* was in Aaron Pryor's bottle is an opinion not fact thats pretty clear cut to me.

Pryor always rushed out of his corner and always had amazing stamina.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

---

Why are you bringing up things non related to this thread ?? its well known fact Ali had smelling salts that wern't allowed in UK at that time its not an opinion its a fact. I don't know what was in Aaron Pryor's drink so we can only speculate, im no expert on what is mixed in drinks. But all the things you *think* was in Aaron Pryor's bottle is an opinion not fact thats pretty clear cut to me.

Pryor always rushed out of his corner and always had amazing stamina.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.
You want to talk about facts?
Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?
You guessed it they lost to Ali that's why he was the best in that era cause he beat them all.
20 yrs. from now someone will try and breakdown Lennox opposition they'll crap about Vitaly, Rahman, Evander but the fact of the matter is they were the best around and he beat them.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

---

Why are you bringing up things non related to this thread ?? its well known fact Ali had smelling salts that wern't allowed in UK at that time its not an opinion its a fact. I don't know what was in Aaron Pryor's drink so we can only speculate, im no expert on what is mixed in drinks. But all the things you *think* was in Aaron Pryor's bottle is an opinion not fact thats pretty clear cut to me.

Pryor always rushed out of his corner and always had amazing stamina.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.
You want to talk about facts?
Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?
You guessed it they lost to Ali that's why he was the best in that era cause he beat them all.
20 yrs. from now someone will try and breakdown Lennox opposition they'll crap about Vitaly, Rahman, Evander but the fact of the matter is they were the best around and he beat them.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.

I see it in Ali's corner what they were doing its well known fact, and as for Pryor vs Arguello controversy, i said i had no comment on it because we can only speculate. I also said i wouldn't be surprised if he did have some kind of substance in his drink, but there's a lot of controversy's in boxing like someone in the crowd shouting out * body shot body shot* just before Hopkins stops Oscar with a body shot but like i said we can only speculate.

Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?

If you see my previous comment's i said they were best Heavyweight's at that time, but that doesn't make them *great* Heavyweight's like Welshdevilrob was trying to imply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

---

Why are you bringing up things non related to this thread ?? its well known fact Ali had smelling salts that wern't allowed in UK at that time its not an opinion its a fact. I don't know what was in Aaron Pryor's drink so we can only speculate, im no expert on what is mixed in drinks. But all the things you *think* was in Aaron Pryor's bottle is an opinion not fact thats pretty clear cut to me.

Pryor always rushed out of his corner and always had amazing stamina.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.
You want to talk about facts?
Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?
You guessed it they lost to Ali that's why he was the best in that era cause he beat them all.
20 yrs. from now someone will try and breakdown Lennox opposition they'll crap about Vitaly, Rahman, Evander but the fact of the matter is they were the best around and he beat them.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.

I see it in Ali's corner what they were doing its well known fact, and as for Pryor vs Arguello controversy, i said i had no comment on it because we can only speculate. I also said i wouldn't be surprised if he did have some kind of substance in his drink, but there's a lot of controversy's in boxing like someone in the crowd shouting out * body shot body shot* just before Hopkins stops Oscar with a body shot but like i said we can only speculate.

Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?

If you see my previous comment's i said they were best Heavyweight's at that time, but that doesn't make them *great* Heavyweight's like Welshdevilrob was trying to imply.

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Well if Welsh was saying they were greats I gotta disagree with him also. But they were the best around that's why some of them gave Ali some really tough fights. But in the end Ali prevailed he beat them and went on to become who we know as 'The Greatest'.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

---

Why are you bringing up things non related to this thread ?? its well known fact Ali had smelling salts that wern't allowed in UK at that time its not an opinion its a fact. I don't know what was in Aaron Pryor's drink so we can only speculate, im no expert on what is mixed in drinks. But all the things you *think* was in Aaron Pryor's bottle is an opinion not fact thats pretty clear cut to me.

Pryor always rushed out of his corner and always had amazing stamina.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.
You want to talk about facts?
Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?
You guessed it they lost to Ali that's why he was the best in that era cause he beat them all.
20 yrs. from now someone will try and breakdown Lennox opposition they'll crap about Vitaly, Rahman, Evander but the fact of the matter is they were the best around and he beat them.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.

I see it in Ali's corner what they were doing its well known fact, and as for Pryor vs Arguello controversy, i said i had no comment on it because we can only speculate. I also said i wouldn't be surprised if he did have some kind of substance in his drink, but there's a lot of controversy's in boxing like someone in the crowd shouting out * body shot body shot* just before Hopkins stops Oscar with a body shot but like i said we can only speculate.

Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?

If you see my previous comment's i said they were best Heavyweight's at that time, but that doesn't make them *great* Heavyweight's like Welshdevilrob was trying to imply.

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Well if Welsh was saying they were greats I gotta disagree with him also. But they were the best around that's why some of them gave Ali some really tough fights. But in the end Ali prevailed he beat them and went on to become who we know as 'The Greatest'.

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I never denied that Mick i totally agree with everything you just said CC.

I stand by my comment that those fighters are some of the best Heavyweights that have ever lived. I'm not going to say that only fighters that are in a Top 20 or 30 are the only ones who can be considered as some of the best in history - I'm not narrow minded enough to keep to 20 fighters when tens of thousands have competed.

Folley was a magnificant technical boxer and Ali probably fought the best he has ever done against Cleveland Williams. Watch that fight (Williams) and if you still have the same opinion then so be it. Ali punished brutally both Terrell and Paterson for constantly calling him "Cassius Clay".

Riddick Bowe - he wasn't quick enough or powerful enough to beat Ali and it would have been very onesided.

As for Cooper - Ali beat him twice in the 60's and Yes Cooper dropped him but he got up and prevailed - that fight is one of the most misremembered in History and people often overexagerate the length of time Ali had to recover. The punch did indeed land just before bell - that's not Ali's fault.

Ali never got knocked-out in his career and was only stopped once on his feet when he was already damaged and shouldn't have been in the ring against Holmes, who tried mighty hard to KO Ali in the 1st- that says to anyone that he could take a punch.

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

I stand by my comment that those fighters are some of the best Heavyweights that have ever lived. I'm not going to say that only fighters that are in a Top 20 or 30 are the only ones who can be considered as some of the best in history - I'm not narrowminded enough to keep to 20 fighters when tens of thousands have competed.

Folley was a magnificant technical boxer and Ali probably fought the best he has ever done against Cleveland Williams. Watch that fight (Williams) and if you still have the same opinion then so be it. Ali punished brutally both Terrell and Paterson for constantly calling him "Cassius Clay".

Riddick Bowe - he wasn't quick enough or powerful enough to beat Ali and it would have been very onesided.

As for Cooper - Ali beat him twice in the 60's and Yes Cooper dropped him but he got up and prevailed - that fight is one of the most misremembered in History and people often overexagerate the length of time Ali had to recover. The punch did indeed land just before bell - that's not Ali's fault.

Ali never got knocked-out in his career and was only stopped once on his feet when he was already damaged and shouldn't have been in the ring against Holmes, who tried to mightly hard KO Ali in the 1st- that says to anyone that he could take a punch.

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I stand by my comment that those fighters are some of the best Heavyweights that have ever lived. I'm not going to say that only fighters that are in a Top 20 or 30 are the only ones who can be considered as some of the best in history - I'm not narrowminded enough to keep to 20 fighters when tens of thousands have competed.

But they aren't some of the best in Heavyweight history not even close. I could even name 40 if i wanted the point is that to be considered *great* Heavyweight you at least need to be top 20 of all time, plus beating good opposition most of the fighters you mentioned only had 1 or 2 goodish wins in there whole career and they were beaten by the elite Heavyweight's, those fighters would struggle to make top 40 let alone top 20 and i have never heard anyone consider the likes of Terrell and Chuvalo as great Heavyweights.

i'm not narrowminded enough to keep to 20 fighters when tens of thousands have competed.

Why do you have to keep having digs at me all the time ?? why can't you debate sensibly without insulting people and having digs at people ?? no one considers those fighters to be *greats* so your telling me you consider. Terrell, Chuvalo, Jones, etc to be one of the greats of Heavyweight division ??

Folley was a magnificant technical boxer and Ali probably fought the best he has ever done against Cleveland Williams. Watch that fight (Williams) and if you still have the same opinion then so be it. Ali punished brutally both Terrell and Paterson for constantly calling him "Cassius Clay".

They were goodish fighters nothing more, nothing less. Ali did beat Williams in fine fashion i never denied that but Williams was 33 at the time and was past his peak. Just look at my previous posts i have gave you the facts about each of the opponents.

Riddick Bowe - he wasn't quick enough or powerful enough to beat Ali and it would have been very onesided.

Was Doug Jones quick or powerful ?? and to say Bowe isn't powerful enough is ridiculous Bowe is 235. 6,5 in his prime and he did hit pretty hard, and considering Bowe is bigger than Ali, in fact it would be the biggest opponent Ali has faced your not going to sit there with a straight face and tell me Bowe's power would have no effect on Ali are you ?? when Ali got knocked down by a Cruiserweight like Henry Cooper.

As for Cooper - Ali beat him twice in the 60's and Yes Cooper dropped him but he got up and prevailed - that fight is one of the most misremembered in History and people often overexagerate the length of time Ali had to recover. The punch did indeed land just before bell - that's not Ali's fault.

It doesn't change the fact that Ali had to have smelling salts plus his glove split to help him recover.