Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by brucelee
after Pavlik koed Taylor, where will you put Pavlik in the pound for pound list? top 15 or top 20?
About 50 - 60. lets not get over excited. remember spinks beat taylor he just didnt get the decision. Taylor was a very average champ, who got some very dodgy decisions.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by SEANIE
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Originally Posted by brucelee
after Pavlik koed Taylor, where will you put Pavlik in the pound for pound list? top 15 or top 20?
About 50 - 60. lets not get over excited. remember spinks beat taylor he just didnt get the decision. Taylor was a very average champ, who got some very dodgy decisions.
i sincerely hope your joking.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by SEANIE
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Originally Posted by brucelee
after Pavlik koed Taylor, where will you put Pavlik in the pound for pound list? top 15 or top 20?
About 50 - 60. lets not get over excited. remember spinks beat taylor he just didnt get the decision. Taylor was a very average champ, who got some very dodgy decisions.
lol, now there's hating and then there's hating.
He's definitely top 20, I'd say top 15, just outside the top 10 elite.
If he was 50 or 60th that would mean he;s the lowest rated world champ in the whole of boxing ???
Cmon man use your noggin ::**
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by Preme
As for Pavlik, he is pretty easy to hit, has S*** speed and very limited boxing skills. I like him, shows good heart and always puts on a show, but still the boy is a "Good" boxer at best, his power bailed him out in this fight. To say that this guy is on of the 10 best boxers in the world right now is laughable IMO
Total Horseshit!!!! he was landing the more effective Jabs and his defense was tighter than Taylors!!! Dont even tell me that you are with the screw ball judges that had Taylor up by a wide Margin ??? 1 punch my ass he broke Taylor down and backed him up the whole fight....
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by Fire
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by Fire
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by Fire
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by ds91
6,7 or 8 on the p4p list
He's not top 10 p4p yet guys. Come on people let's have some perspective here, he's had ONE world title fight. ONE in his entire career. Yes won in great style and had to pick himself off the floor to do so but that doesn't make you one of the top 10 p4p guys on the planet.
He needs to defend his belt, clean up the division and prove himself over a period of time before he gets a top 10 p4p slot. Remember top 10 p4p is for ELITE boxers only who have PROVEN themselves TIME AND TIME AGAIN ;)
We don't yet know how Pavlik would handle a slick boxer like Hopkins or a guy with blazing handspeed like Calzaghe, or an elusive impossible to hit guy like Spinks.
You may think he wins all those fights and he well might but he doesn't get a top 10 p4p slot UNTIL he does it.
Out of curiosity you guys who are saying he's top 10 p4p, when Buster Douglas shocked the world by KO'ing the indestructible Mike Tyson was he your p4p number 1 fighter in the world? Did he make the top 10? ???
How stupid you would have looked in his next fight and subsequent career collapse if you would have hailed him as one of boxings elite.
What about Tarver Ko'ing Jones, he should have definintely got top 3 p4p then seeing as Jones was number 1 p4p in the world at that time.
PERSPECTIVE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!
cotto could easily be in the top ten, he hasnt really beaten that many people, hatton was a P4Per after he beat kostya....
pavlik is probably the P4P hardest hitter in boxing
pavlik handled taylor handspeed well...
Pavlik has a fast, sharp, and very powerful jab... very powerful left hook, has a good chin...
lets have perspective about this: taylor beat p4p hopkins twice, tied winky, and got ktfo, literally, against pavlik.... that means something...
But you guys are talking about this fight as if it was a Tyson Spinks style one round demolition job.
Pavlik was the one almost KTFO in the second round. Most referee's would have stopped it right there and then and we would all be talking about how great Jermain Taylor looked. He was also trailing on all three scorecards going into the 7th round so it was by now means a blowout.
A rematch between the two could easily swing the other way, these two were very evenly matched.
Anyways and I can't believe I have to keep saying this but you CANNOT become a legit Top 10 p4p star on the back of a single fight.
That was Pavliks first and ONLY championship fight. He's hasn't even defended his belt once yet, how does he leapfrog the guys I mentioned in my top 10 who have all won multiple world titles, who have made multiple title defenses and who in many cases have won belts in several divisions?
This is like claiming that Wigan are one of the top 5 biggest soccer clubs in the world if they manage to win the FA Cup this season, just stupid.
If he continues to win and can solidify his reign as world champ then he'll get into the top 10 p4p rankings, but not before.
What are you talking about "most refs would have stopped it," have you seen the fight.. pavlik was up and walking around on around the 5th to 6th count, no ref would have stopped the fight... i've heard a couple people on other sites saying that and that is ridiculous, pavlik was probably hurt the most AFTER he got up and was hit a right from taylor and stumbled, yet no ref would have stopped it...
and pavlik taking the best shots from the "second" hardest hitting middleweight and getting up and knocking him out is what legends are made of....
Despite what the dumba$$ judges think, taylor only won 2 rounds and it was quickly becoming a one-sided fight.....
again hatton became a legit P4Per after one campionship fight.. your acting like pavlik didnt just destroy the #1 contender AND THEN HE BEAT THE UNDEFEATED, #1 MIDDLEWEIGHT...
If you think that no other ref's would have stopped that fight then I shouldn't even debate this further with you.
But just to humour you who out of the current top 10 p4p stars would you kick out to replace with Pavlik?
Hatton? 43-0 140 lb ring champ for the past 2 years, 4 time world champ and in two weight divisions?
Cotto? 30-0 Two time world champ, two weight divisions, 10 straight title fight wins.
Cazaghe? 43-0 Longest reigning world champ, most title defenses ever in 168 lb division, Ring champion, double world champ.
R Marquez Double weight world champ,Ring champion at 118, beat THE man at 121
Vazquez, double world super bantamweight champ, Ring champ.
I shouldn't even need to mention the top 5 p4p here as they are all multiple weight champs whose success has spanned for several years.
Pavlik WILL be top 10 p4p if he continues as he is but he's not there yet.
"If you think no refs would stop the fight I should stop debating this with you"bilbo..... ::** please... so basically your saying that anyone who gets knocked down, than the fight could have been stopped by "some refs"... yeah that was a good point you made ::**
if he is not a top 10 than he is top 11 or 12 what is your point???
He's around 14 or 15.
I assume you havn't seen many fights if you thought all refs would have let that carry on. ::**
man you got me there, I havent seen very many fights, and that is why I think refs dont stop fights after a guy gets knocked down the first time and then gets up half way threw the count...
It wasn't when he went down that they would have stopped it but when he was all over the place for the 30 seconds or afterwards. He got heeled and staggered across the whole ring. Trust me on this there are a lot of refs who would have waved it off right there.
Remember this fight?
[youtube=425,350]Kv1Et0W3xeI[/youtube]
:)
Worst stoppage I have ever scene.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by JT Rock
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Originally Posted by Preme
As for Pavlik, he is pretty easy to hit, has S*** speed and very limited boxing skills. I like him, shows good heart and always puts on a show, but still the boy is a "Good" boxer at best, his power bailed him out in this fight. To say that this guy is on of the 10 best boxers in the world right now is laughable IMO
Total Horseshit!!!! he was landing the more effective Jabs and his defense was tighter than Taylors!!! Dont even tell me that you are with the screw ball judges that had Taylor up by a wide Margin ??? 1 punch my a** he broke Taylor down and backed him up the whole fight....
I agree. I really didnt appreciate pavlik's jab until this fight, he really gets it out there with some spice on it. He moved forward the whole fight, even the round he got starched in!!!!!!!!!! towards the end of that round he ended up being the aggressor again! Some will say JT swung himself out in that round, but pavlik could of rested in the last minute of that round. But he still came forward. This was not a lucky punch, this was not a fluke. Pavlik had JT's number all night long.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by SEANIE
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Originally Posted by brucelee
after Pavlik koed Taylor, where will you put Pavlik in the pound for pound list? top 15 or top 20?
About 50 - 60. lets not get over excited. remember spinks beat taylor he just didnt get the decision. Taylor was a very average champ, who got some very dodgy decisions.
Ridiculous comment :sadclick: for being a hater.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by JT Rock
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Originally Posted by Preme
As for Pavlik, he is pretty easy to hit, has S*** speed and very limited boxing skills. I like him, shows good heart and always puts on a show, but still the boy is a "Good" boxer at best, his power bailed him out in this fight. To say that this guy is on of the 10 best boxers in the world right now is laughable IMO
Total Horseshit!!!! he was landing the more effective Jabs and his defense was tighter than Taylors!!! Dont even tell me that you are with the screw ball judges that had Taylor up by a wide Margin ??? 1 punch my a** he broke Taylor down and backed him up the whole fight....
I dont think the secret is quite out yet that he's basically a pressure fighter with a very good jab.
How many of those do you see floating around these days ???
In truth, it all been about how Pavlik is gonna deal with this guy/ that guy etc. Now the spotlight is firmly on Pavlik you will learn what he is about and how he is so hard to deal with.
In my opinion there arent many guys who are wiley and experienced enough (as well as fit enough) to deal with Pavlik.... I think maybe Winky might have one more god performance left in him at 160 to deal with Kelly. Maybe.
Apart from that. Your looking at another long reigning Middleweight Champ.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
Another one of Seanie's great posts in Pavlik vs Duddy thread.
Duddy on points. easy peasy
::**
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Another one of Seanie's great posts in Pavlik vs Duddy thread.
Duddy on points. easy peasy
::**
You shouldn't mock him Ice, it's very possible that he genuinely suffers from some sort of retardation.
You should applaud him for his efforts of typing big words with the growns ups on the internet.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
can't we just stick that guy in his own forums where he can lick his own windows. Mine are getting all slimy.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by El Gamo
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Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I got Pavlik coming in at number 15 with Taylor dropping out of the top 15.
How can Pavlik only come in at number 15? When he beat a guy who was on 90% of P4P lists? When he beat a guy who has wins over Hopkins(and he won the second fight decisively) and he had a close fight with Winky which could have gone either way? So B Hop,who most have top 3,struggled twice with JT,the the best version of JT shows up v Pavlik,Kelly KTFO him out? I'm not understanding the thinking bro.
This is the mistaken premise that's popping up all over this thread (and I haven't read through the rest of it yet, so maybe someone's made my point already). Taylor was not on 90% of P4P lists. He was missing entirely from lots of (if not most) P4P lists. He wasn't on the Ring's list, which is the biggest list of them all. Tons of posters on this very website (no doubt many of the same ones who think Pavlik should be the #5 P4P fighter all of a sudden) have been saying for quite a while that Taylor is not a P4P fighter.
As far as comparing Pavlik's performance against Taylors vs. B-Hop's and Winky's, yes, Pavlik was the only one to KO Taylor. But he was also the only one who was *clearly* losing the fight on points at the time it ended (most think Hop won the first fight, and most think Winky beat Taylor), and the only one who got put on the mat. I'm not saying that should outweigh his KO victory, but getting dominated on points is not an attribute of most P4P fighters. Pavlik's got a great punch, and is an excellent finisher. That counts for a lot. But he's technically really rough, which for me puts him out of the P4P until he actually beats a top P4P fighter. Compare him to Pacquiao--another hard-punching and technically flawed fighter. If Pacquiao hadn't beaten (or drawn) with a series of P4P fighters, I doubt anyone would have him in the top 5; because until you get a fairly one-dimensional puncher (with shite defense) in with top talent, you can't really tell how far the power's going to take him. If Pavlik were to beat Winky, or move up and beat Calzaghe or B-Hop, I'd happily put him in the top 10.
Also, I totally disagree with all this "best version of Taylor" talk. I agree that the "most exciting version" of Taylor showed up, but this was also the least careful version of Taylor, and that's exactly why he got KO'd. He came in there to excite the fans, so he got in there and engaged--and got caught. When he was boxing, he was winning rounds (and those were the most boring parts of the fight). And if backing straight up against a long, hard, puncher is "Taylor at his best," then that's just more proof that he wasn't a P4P great to begin with.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by shza
As far as comparing Pavlik's performance against Taylors vs. B-Hop's and Winky's, yes, Pavlik was the only one to KO Taylor. But he was also the only one who was *clearly* losing the fight on points at the time it ended (most think Hop won the first fight, and most think Winky beat Taylor), and the only one who got put on the mat. I'm not saying that should outweigh his KO victory, but getting dominated on points is not an attribute of most P4P fighters. Pavlik's got a great punch, and is an excellent finisher. That counts for a lot. But he's technically really rough, which for me puts him out of the P4P until he actually beats a top P4P fighter. Compare him to Pacquiao--another hard-punching and technically flawed fighter. If Pacquiao hadn't beaten (or drawn) with a series of P4P fighters, I doubt anyone would have him in the top 5; because until you get a fairly one-dimensional puncher (with shite defense) in with top talent, you can't really tell how far the power's going to take him. If Pavlik were to beat Winky, or move up and beat Calzaghe or B-Hop, I'd happily put him in the top 10.
F the judges!!! He was not gettting dominated, the fight was pretty damn well even including the Knock Down, and Kelly was setting the tempo and Breaking Taylor down along with outjabbing him...
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by shza
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Originally Posted by El Gamo
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Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I got Pavlik coming in at number 15 with Taylor dropping out of the top 15.
How can Pavlik only come in at number 15? When he beat a guy who was on 90% of P4P lists? When he beat a guy who has wins over Hopkins(and he won the second fight decisively) and he had a close fight with Winky which could have gone either way? So B Hop,who most have top 3,struggled twice with JT,the the best version of JT shows up v Pavlik,Kelly KTFO him out? I'm not understanding the thinking bro.
This is the mistaken premise that's popping up all over this thread (and I haven't read through the rest of it yet, so maybe someone's made my point already). Taylor was
not on 90% of P4P lists. He was missing entirely from lots of (if not most) P4P lists. He wasn't on the Ring's list, which is the biggest list of them all. Tons of posters on this very website (no doubt many of the same ones who think Pavlik should be the #5 P4P fighter all of a sudden) have been saying for quite a while that Taylor is not a P4P fighter.
As far as comparing Pavlik's performance against Taylors vs. B-Hop's and Winky's, yes, Pavlik was the only one to KO Taylor.
But he was also the only one who was *clearly* losing the fight on points at the time it ended (most think Hop won the first fight, and most think Winky beat Taylor), and the only one who got put on the mat. I'm not saying that should outweigh his KO victory, but getting dominated on points is not an attribute of most P4P fighters. Pavlik's got a great punch, and is an excellent finisher. That counts for a lot. But he's technically really rough, which for me puts him out of the P4P until he actually beats a top P4P fighter. Compare him to Pacquiao--another hard-punching and technically flawed fighter. If Pacquiao hadn't beaten (or drawn) with a series of P4P fighters, I doubt anyone would have him in the top 5; because until you get a fairly one-dimensional puncher (with shite defense) in with top talent, you can't really tell how far the power's going to take him. If Pavlik were to beat Winky, or move up and beat Calzaghe or B-Hop, I'd happily put him in the top 10.
Also, I totally disagree with all this "best version of Taylor" talk. I agree that the "most exciting version" of Taylor showed up, but this was also the least careful version of Taylor, and that's exactly why he got KO'd. He came in there to excite the fans, so he got in there and engaged--and got caught. When he was boxing, he was winning rounds (and those were the most boring parts of the fight). And if backing straight up against a long, hard, puncher is "Taylor at his best," then that's just more proof that he wasn't a P4P great to begin with.
Your gonna have to elaborate on that one. clearly losing the fight? By whos measure? the judges?
Not mine. Not many other peoples opinion as well. That fight was a point either way. AT BEST.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
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Originally Posted by JT Rock
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Originally Posted by shza
As far as comparing Pavlik's performance against Taylors vs. B-Hop's and Winky's, yes, Pavlik was the only one to KO Taylor. But he was also the only one who was *clearly* losing the fight on points at the time it ended (most think Hop won the first fight, and most think Winky beat Taylor), and the only one who got put on the mat. I'm not saying that should outweigh his KO victory, but getting dominated on points is not an attribute of most P4P fighters. Pavlik's got a great punch, and is an excellent finisher. That counts for a lot. But he's technically really rough, which for me puts him out of the P4P until he actually beats a top P4P fighter. Compare him to Pacquiao--another hard-punching and technically flawed fighter. If Pacquiao hadn't beaten (or drawn) with a series of P4P fighters, I doubt anyone would have him in the top 5; because until you get a fairly one-dimensional puncher (with shite defense) in with top talent, you can't really tell how far the power's going to take him. If Pavlik were to beat Winky, or move up and beat Calzaghe or B-Hop, I'd happily put him in the top 10.
F the judges!!! He was not gettting dominated, the fight was pretty damn well even including the Knock Down, and Kelly was setting the tempo and Breaking Taylor down along with outjabbing him...
I'm not going on the judges' cards. I thought the 3rd round was the only round Pavlik clearly won. But I gave him the 1st as well. Taylor clearly won 2 (10-8) and 5. 4 and 6 were close, but I thought Taylor edged them both.
