Was Muhammad Ali really the best

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyle

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Ever been hit by a flash knockdown?
By the way Ali was 6'1/6'2 205 to 230
A real light weight right?

---

Ali was 6'3-6'4 and 220-225


...I hear he also walked on water because a white man told him he couldn't and then he jumped over the Empire State Building and during the Global Cooling scare of the 1960's Ali warmed our hearts by cheering up a kid with cancer.



Sorry I'm a little put out with this "Ali is the greatest" mainly because #1 I don't share that view and #2 I am berated for not sharing that view #3 other boxers did good stuff even GREAT stuff, Joe Louis got black people playing golf on the PGA tour and got Jackie Robinson out of being court martialed so if not for Joe Louis then maybe no Jackie Robinson and no Tiger Woods.

---

Joe Louis was in no way any kind of precursor for Jackie Robinson, please stop with that nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICB

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Fightfan

Ok I've had a few and now some thoguht's of Ali are surfacing.Personally to start off I don't like I believe he is a racist and was more rewarded for what he did inside the ring because of his stance with the Vietnam war.When he beat Sonny Liston there was always contraversy.Look at those fight's especially the second no I am not saying anything about a phantom punch but when that punch connected his foot was up in the air,honestly when your feet are not planted you have no power common knowledge.So how would a man who could take on as many as five cops with billy clubs cracking him in the head go down from such a punch it was insane.Then as you see him rolling on the canvas he looks up at referee Jersey Joe counting over him to see what the count is he then rolls onto his stomach and then gets up.His hands are down thinking to himself the fight is over but when Jersey Joe walks away Ali jumps at him and hands go right up as if he had not a foggy moment when he was down. Anyway there was always something around Ali's fight's that he was allowed to get away with the Bonavena punching consistently behind the head,the grabbing and pushing down behind the head of Joe Frasier, the infamous tear in the glove when he fought Henry Cooper and took him 13 minutes to get a new glove becuase he was simply out on his feet (in which the same type of thing happened to Ken Buchanan in the Roberto Duran fight he wanted extra time for a low blow but they said no you can't continue),the knockdown from shavers which was called a no knockdown and many more if you want me to name them.In my opinion there has never been so much contraversy in the ring with a fighter than Ali and referee's seemed to be starstruck and would forget the rules when he fought. When it all comes down to it I would put him into the top ten.I mean let's be honest do you think he would be able to lye on the ropes and play patty cake with Lennox Lewis a 6'5" 245lb fighter who destroy's people with one right hand.Sure we laugh at Lennox and talk about his chin but have you seen any heavyweight champion get hit with any of the right hands that Lennox got knocked out with. So my answer is no about Ali he was great fighter but certainly not the greatest.

---

Ever been hit by a flash knockdown?
By the way Ali was 6'1/6'2 205 to 230
A real light weight right?

---

Oh come off it they done a programme about Liston vs Ali 2, and they had this computer programming gear or whatever it was, that showed you where the exact punch landed, and it was nothing more than a grazing shot on the cheek. I totally understand about flash knockdowns but we aren't talk about flush punches on the chin, temple, nose, etc. We are talking about a grazing arm punch on the cheek.

---

I have seen the video at least 100 times and in slow motion it was more then a grazing shot...There is a highlight video on youtube that shows it perfectly....I will look for it later and post it...I have to remember which highlight vid it was....There are about 50 of them

What I think happened,Liston got caught with a flash knockdown,and by that point was afraid of Ali,and decided the canvas felt comfortable in the second fight
He had a pathological fear of insane people (ironic I know) and he was convinced Ali was crazy by that point

He got Jackie and other African-Americans into OCS ....oh but that's nonsense....and I guess I should stop it....sorry for trying to appreciate a National Hero.

Nothing wrong with appreciating a national hero, just get your facts straight is all. If you need clarification, read 'I Never Had It Made,' Jackie's autobiography, where in detail he even says he and Joe Louis were never even close friends, Joe (along with over 70 other people) simply submitted affidavits of Robinson's character. He was never in any danger of being court martialed.

Fine...but Joe Louis did get a group of African-American soldiers including Jackie into OCS.

Very true.

And as a boxer Joe Louis dominated and was champion for 14 years straight, defended his title successfully 25 times, and took two years off due to WWII

I think i finally understand you now Lyle, this is just all politics for you. Its really sad that you allow your personal feeling, poltics and agendas to come infront of your boxing judgments.

** i have no problems with people NOT having ali at number 1** just thought id get that out of the way before for you say otherwise.

In my opinion i personally feel after reading your posts you have something against Ali being a muslim or something on that line. Because he was a muslim Ali didnt fight in the war which you have allready clearly mentioned. Furthermore you mentioned joe louis fought in the war and he deserves to be treat as a hero because of this, but how can you use that to add to his boxing profile?? Boxers are supposed to be judged in the ring and not on if they were good golf players or fought in the war. Do you live down south by any chance and own a gun??

...OK how many times must I explain it...it's not about politics....Ali did great things and I haven't said anything wrong about Ali, I just rated Louis ahead of him as a fighter and then people started talking about outside the ring and I explained about Louis outside the ring....where is this wrong???? Where???


You see what you want to see, you're seeing a post that has Ali 3rd and you think I've given him a raw deal and all along I've said NOTHING BAD ABOUT ALI and you're guessing it's political.


If I graded Ali on politics he wouldn't be in my top 100,000,000 fighters much less 3rd. So take that theory of yours and shove it up your ass

So by now means if ands or buts was Sonny Liston involved in any way with the mafia even by his peculiar death which he overdosed on heroin. Which his wife and George Foreman to this day didn't understand because he wouldn't even talk to junkies not even be seen with them.There is a thing called money in this sport and guess what fighter's can be paid off it has happened and always will happen.Oh here is the film by the way. It's called a step and fetch or what Ali and his friend called an Anchorpunch only thing is his foot is off the ground and while moving backwards oh yeah his whole body was into that punch 100 percent ;) .Also if this wasn't a set-up for something else why was this fight taken place in a gymnasium with only 1 cinematographer to show this?Why could only 2000 some odd people be only allowed to see the rematch of possibily the biggest fight of it's time be seen by so few people?Where in heavyweight history is this has any heavyweight championship fight ever been held in a high school gym? It was a fix! oh yeah At this point I believe he weighed 210 lbs to Liston's 220ies, when Ali fought Holmes he was 219 lbs in his second to last fight I would like to know where he was 230 and which bout please.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="<A href="http://www.youtube.com/v/cg6pM8QmOCY&hl=en"></param><param">http://www.youtube.com/v/cg6pM8QmOCY&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cg6pM8QmOCY&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

He was 227 vs Buster Mathis

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="<A href="http://www.youtube.com/v/cg6pM8QmOCY&hl=en"></param><param">http://www.youtube.com/v/cg6pM8QmOCY&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cg6pM8QmOCY&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

may be now

....Liston gave up in the second fight there's no doubt about it. Liston was like Tyson once HE was bullied he wanted nothing to do with the other guy.

[QUOTE=Lyle;516164]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyle

#3 Joe Louis did more for this country than Ali could EVER do and that's not said because I don't agree with Ali's politics, it's said because Joe Louis really did do so much for this country and for his people.

---

THAT SOUND LIKE POLITICS

[QUOTE=Lyle;516331]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyle

...I hear he also walked on water because a white man told him he couldn't and then he jumped over the Empire State Building and during the Global Cooling scare of the 1960's Ali warmed our hearts by cheering up a kid with cancer.

Joe Louis got black people playing golf on the PGA tour and got Jackie Robinson out of being court martialed so if not for Joe Louis then maybe no Jackie Robinson and no Tiger Woods.

---

THAT SOUNDS LIKE POLITICS - AND MAKING ALI LOOK LIKE A RACIST

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyle

He got Jackie and other African-Americans into OCS ....oh but that's nonsense....and I guess I should stop it....sorry for trying to appreciate a National Hero.

---

POLITICS AGAIN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyle

Fine...but Joe Louis did get a group of African-American soldiers including Jackie into OCS.

---

POLITICS AGAIN - FURTHER MORE (CANT SEEM TO FIND POST AT MOMENT) YOU ACCUSED ALI OF BEING A RACIST. NOW IF THATS NOT POLTICS WHAT IS??