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It's not the point that they sell it exclusively to us it's that MORE OIL on the market means lower prices and when we sell it AMERICAN COMPANIES get the money and not foreign companies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Killface
The Democrats don't want wars abroad??? I disagree, they'll stick their nose in a different country's business BUT the media will applaud them for doing a great thing. Somalia, Bosnia....these places ringing any bells???
It doesn't mean lower prices at all. Offshore drilling won't make gas one cent cheaper. If they started offshore drilling tomorrow on the leases they do have by the time they produce any oil US domestic demand would have increased more than the new production so no decrease in the price. US oil companies already have a ton of leases that they haven't bothered drilling yet and it'd be the same with any new ones they get. What they want is new leases in their balance sheet so that's now official Bush administation policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleIt's not the point that they sell it exclusively to us it's that MORE OIL on the market means lower prices and when we sell it AMERICAN COMPANIES get the money and not foreign companies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Killface
The Democrats don't want wars abroad??? I disagree, they'll stick their nose in a different country's business BUT the media will applaud them for doing a great thing. Somalia, Bosnia....these places ringing any bells???
Every US administration gets involved in foreign countries militarily. There have been over 80 US military foreign interventions since WW2. The Democrats didn't mange to spend trillions of dollars and over 4000 US lives and counting in handing the world's second-largest oil reserve over to the Iranians though. Only the genius Bush managed to do that.
Kirkland if the speculators move the market then YES even talking about drilling happening in the US would mean an immediate drop in oil prices in the futures market and that would then lower the price of gas.
Not making more power plants won't help....wind and solar alone aren't going to be enough.
The long-term outlook for speculators in capital markets is generally the end of the current financial quarter. Let's be generous and say the end of the year. So exactly what effect does a potential new source of oil that could hit the market a decade from now have on the current market? None at all, obviously. Oil futures contracts for delivery of oil a decade from now don't even exist yet, how can they have an effect on today's prices? Same answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
There are endless technologies to produce new fuels ither than wind and solar. There's a firm currently growing genetically modified bacteria that eat agricultural waste and shit crude oil. There are hundreds of projects like this being started with the very great potential that one of them will solve the current energy problem overnight, another reason why what some offshore field might produce a decade from now is irrelevant to current prices.
Scientists find bugs that eat waste and excrete petrol
Silicon Valley is experimenting with bacteria that have been genetically altered to provide 'renewable petroleum'
Scientists find bugs that eat waste and excrete petrol - Times Online
The fact that the media are actually taking this whole McCain offshore drilling policy sseriously is a reflection on the general piss poor job they do of informing people what actually goes on in the world. Every article and report about the MvcCain campaign's offshore policy should contain in the first paragraph " Offshore drilling would have no effect on current oil prices and a negligible effect when the oil does come online a decade from now. It also wouldn't alter the current and future global oil supply shortage problem either even if all potential fields were fully exploited." Instead they take that shit seriously when it's total bs.
So if we were to strike oil like say BRAZIL did it would have no effect on oil prices?
If we were to build more refineries and produce more gasoline that would have no effect on prices?
Guys bomb pipelines in Nigeria and that bumps the price up but if we find and produce more oil the price will stay the same?!?!
That reasoning (if you can call it that) would mean that supply and demand have nothing to do with oil prices but actions like bombing pipelines have a lot to do with prices......oh and then there's that little deal where OPEC says it'll cut production therefore making the price go up due to the law of supply and demand.....but I suppose that's just a coincidence.
And OIL isn't the only thing worth drilling for Natural Gas is a big source of power which T. Boone Pickins wants us to use to supplement wind and solar power (because you need to supplement those kinds of power). But I suppose you don't figure they will find any of that here either.
Obama doesn't want ANY drilling and therefore we would be stuck waiting for the Energy Fairy to make us energy independent or have any remote effect on the price of oil......ooooh maybe he'll pull a Jimmy Carter and wear a sweater oh that would be awesome....and then maybe the government could control our thermostats....totally cool! Kirkland you think of everything, I should outsource my worries about the heat or cold to the government....what a load off my mind, now I can focus on important things like gun control and world peace :beat:
T. Boone Pickens. If I'm not mistaken, the oil magnate just testified before Congress saying we have to diversify our energy resources. Right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Offshore drilling would have an effect on prices here if said oil were only sold here. China has only increased its demand as every country has done, except they've been doing it exponentially. There's a company in Russia that has either begun or increased its oil production because China said they'd buy whatever these guys sucked up. So it's more like China's buying whatever's available rather than there being an additional supply for anyone to come along and purchase. More money for American oil companies does little to nothing for the bulk of the American population. That's just as big a phallacy as buying "American" cars. The point is we need to diversify energy resources and if wind and solar aren't enough other things need to be looked at. Are you paying more or less at the pump than you were a year ago? Why would you think the company that has already reemed you for years is now ready to start drilling someplace new to benefit you? In an economy that is near or at another recession and they're still posting stunning profits why in the world would anyone believe that? The drop in prices recently is only a temporary reprieve for what is coming. Prices are only going to go up with these brief temporary drops before leaping increases. If your solution is to just drill more then you deserve what you get. What's wrong with seriously considering at least moving away partially from oil?
Doesn't the government of Brazil own the oil companies? "We" won't strike it rich on anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Free market buddy....nationalization is for suckers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Killface
Say the US nationalizes oil fields well #1 we don't produce enough and we consume a ton #2 OPEC would shit a brick and the price goes up.
Say the US just discovers a ton of oil and we sell to the highest bidder #1 if we produce more oil then the supply hits the market and more supply = lower prices #2 The companies we would have drilling here are US owned and opperated and therefore taxed by the US government and therefore the American people get benefits from finding and producing oil here even if we don't get to use all of it.
Brazil IS energy independent though and why???? Because they drilled and found a gigantic amount of oil....it could happen to us ;)
Oil that may come online in a decade has zero effect on current oil prices. What part of this don't you understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
If Nigerian oil is taken off the market by pipeline attacks then that does affect the oil price, because that oil is currently being produced.
The US refiners don't want to build new refineries as it would cut their profit margins. They've been cutting refining capacity to increase profits for two decades now.
OPEC are cutting production because they're paid in dollars. Bush has printed so many dollars that they've halved in value so OPEC are demanding double the price to give them the same real income they used to have.
If you started drilling every single available US offshore field tomorrow the entire production, when it eventually hit the market, would have zero effect on oil prices because US domestic demand would have increased by far more than the new offshore production by the time it comes online. Offshore drilling is no answer whatsoever to the current energy crisis. It's completely irrelevant in the long term. That's why the Democrats aren't interested in it. If the media wasn't in the tank for the Republicans, they wouldn't let them make this bs offshore-drilling-is-the-answer argument/campaign policy. They'd call them on their bs and ask them if they had an energy policy that would actually be effective.
So if there's anything you still don't understand fully here let me know and I'll explain it more clearly.
Lyle, you're wrong on that point. We would not reap the benefits of any company paying additional dollars in tax when the budget hasn't been balanced in almost a decade. At best that means we would just borrow less from China. At worst, the oil companies would just find additional tax shelters to avoid higher payments. That's like if you got a raise and instead of using the extra money that isn't in your already overdrafted bank account you just spend a little less with the Discover card to get whatever you wanted anyway. I forget the year, but General Motors completely avoided paying any taxes one year through whatever loophole was available at the time and Exxon-Mobil has reason to beam about their record-breaking profits: they know the gov't isn't getting a drop of it. And with a John McCain budget draft with no numbers in it that just means we're in for more of the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleFree market buddy....nationalization is for suckers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Killface
Say the US nationalizes oil fields well #1 we don't produce enough and we consume a ton #2 OPEC would shit a brick and the price goes up.
Say the US just discovers a ton of oil and we sell to the highest bidder #1 if we produce more oil then the supply hits the market and more supply = lower prices #2 The companies we would have drilling here are US owned and opperated and therefore taxed by the US government and therefore the American people get benefits from finding and producing oil here even if we don't get to use all of it.
Brazil IS energy independent though and why???? Because they drilled and found a gigantic amount of oil....it could happen to us ;)
A nationalised oil industry means the oil revenue goes to the people of the nation. If you look at what Norway has done with its oil revenues to improve the standard of living of its people you can see what I mean -- I'm sure Americans would like a free huge pension when they all retire too.
If you let private individuals own the oil -- in America's case if you give them free leases to produce it -- then you get a small group of private individuals who manipulate production to maximise profits, manipulate the government to avoid paying taxes on it, use their monopoly position to charge artificially high prices and thus make artificial profits for generations etc.
Here's a short history of the astounding corruption and outright robbery of oil consumers over generations, huge tax evasion etc. etc. of the US oil companies :
OPEC and Crude Oil
So if I am the seller and you're the buyer and I have a quantity of 1 of my product to sell the price I would ask for it would be at it's highest (or lowest depending on demand, with oil we really don't have to worry about demand until something better comes along). If a competitor is coming to market in the near future and is bringing more of my product to market then you the buyer have some leverage to negotiate price with me the seller and the price will drop not due to lack of demand but due to increase in supply even supply that hasn't even happened yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
Oil goes up and goes down and guess what gas prices go up and go down because of it....so don't tell me the price won't be affected right away. Price will be affected if they build the platforms before they even drill. Just announcing they're THINKING about drilling can make the speculators flinch.
You're questioning my Infallibility again.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleSo if I am the seller and you're the buyer and I have a quantity of 1 of my product to sell the price I would ask for it would be at it's highest (or lowest depending on demand, with oil we really don't have to worry about demand until something better comes along). If a competitor is coming to market in the near future and is bringing more of my product to market then you the buyer have some leverage to negotiate price with me the seller and the price will drop not due to lack of demand but due to increase in supply even supply that hasn't even happened yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
Oil goes up and goes down and guess what gas prices go up and go down because of it....so don't tell me the price won't be affected right away. Price will be affected if they build the platforms before they even drill. Just announcing they're THINKING about drilling can make the speculators flinch.
If you have product to sell right now then you affect the current price. If your product won't hit the market for a decade then you're not in the market.
Look Lyle, nobody buying and selling oil gives a shit about something that may or may not come to market a decade from now. Somebody may develop a new energy source next year that sees the price of oil hit $10 a barrel, so smething that may happen in a decade is irrelevant. The oil market doesn't ever look more than a few months ahead and normally not past the latest ststement on current market supply levels, something issued every couple of weeks.
Well I will say ethanol isn't helping the price of oil or the price of anything else for that matter