Top 5 P4P Now?

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I agree in as much as determining who would win in a fictional matchup between the two, that would be down to opinion.

That isn't the only way to approach the p4p rankings though.

As I said at the start of the thread, I approach the p4p rankings in terms of acomplishments, resume's, form, performances etc and rank who I think are the top 10 performing boxers right now.

On that scale, given that Donaire is unbeaten, and has brutally knocked out his two biggest rivals in his weight class, clearly he deserves to be higher p4p than Carl Froch, who lost only two fights ago, and who won a controversial victory over Andre Dirrell the previous time out.

Would you disagree that you are unable to claim whether one of these fighters has acomplished more, or has a better resume within their respective weight class, because I disagree.

For what it's worth, prior to the Montiel victory Donaire imo was below Carl Froch in terms of acomplishments, because of his relatively poor competition for the past 3 years.

Ultimately I'm not rating according to who I think is best in a ficitional matchup, I'm asking the question 'Whose acomplishments are greater?', and looking carefully at recent form as well.

That's why, in my p4p rankings, they are not necessarily who I think are the 10 best fighters in the world right now, but rather the 10 best achievers, with the 10 best resumes in boxing right now.

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I totally disagree with your evalulation of these fighters. Using your method Froch easily ranks above Donaire P4P. Here's why -

Froch's last five opponents compared with Donaires conclusively prove Froch has been operating amongst a far more accomplished pool of fighters.

Pascal - current LH champ.
Taylor - former undisputed middleweight champ (retired).
Dirrell - current top 5 rated supermiddle.
Kessler - former no.1 and current top 5 rated supermiddle.
Abraham - former middleweight champion and current top 10 rated supermiddle.

Froch went 4-1.

Froch's competition shows that not only were they regarded amongst the best of their weight range when he fought them but still maintain that position (barring the retired Taylor of course).

Donaires last 5.

Concepcion - never won a "world" title. No current top 10 ranking.
Vargas - never won a "world" title. No current top 10 ranking.
Marquez - never won a "world" title. No current top 10 ranking.
Sydorenko - former "world" champion. No current top 10 ranking.
Montiel - former "world" champion. Current top 5 rated bantam.

Donaire has faced only two opponents of any note. Sydorenko's claim to being world-class was that he was an alphabet champion. Four of Froch's opponents can claim this. Montiel was potentially a genuine P4P fighter. All five of Froch's opponents are potentially genuine P4P fighters.

Your criteria CLEARLY shows that Froch has by FAR the superior form over Donaire. It's not even close. Froch MUST rate above Donaire in all current P4P rankings. Fact.

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No. First off, let me be clear, prior to Donaire's win over Montiel I didn't have him in my p4p either and Froch WAS higher, so I agree up to a point.

But Froch was beaten by Kessler in a close fight, a fighter coming off a loss, and in the eyes of most fight fans should have lost to Andre Dirrell. His win over Abraham was impressive but he too was coming off a loss.

Contrast that with Montiel who was coming off a huge win over Hasegawa and was unbeaten in several years.

No question Montiel was considered by the vast majority to be higher rated in a p4p sense than either Kessler, Abraham or Dirrell. Darchinyan also, until last year was a ligitimate p4p star.

Destroying 2 top fighters like Darchinyan and Montiel is better than losing to one, getting a hotly contested split decision win over another and beating one in an impressive performance.

For me Carl Froch is definitely getting close to the p4p rankings. Unfortunately for him, he is only one fight removed from a defeat, and is not yet close to being acknowledged the best fighter in his weight class. Ward and Bute both heavily contest this.

Donaire is now widely regarded as the best fighter in his division, a claim you simply cannot make for Carl Froch.

Donaire is justifiably above Froch in the p4p because a) defeats cost ranking points, b) being the acknowledged number 1 in your weight class adds ranking points c)quality and decisiveness of victories add ranking points, the better the win and performance, the higher the credit.

I think the vast majority of pundits, experts and informed fight fans would rate Donaire above Froch on the p4p scale and they would likely use the criteria I have laid out above to do so.

You can dissent of course, that is your right. But you are wrong. :)

It wouldn't be fair for me to just list 5 so I'll put it in better perspective by showing the whole 10.

Because this isn't a league table I went as follows:

1. Pacquiao - Blitzed all the weightclasses. Level of competetion has been outstanding.
2. Hopkins - Skills that redefine longevity. Has shown time & again, how the real pro's get it done.
3. Marquez - Weightclass friendly, fight fan friendly. Longevity. Mixed with the best and held his own.
4. W. Klitschko - Long time domination, consistent level of outstanding skill for a man his size.
5. Martinez - Becoming weight friendly, on a run. Good skills. Good resume.
6. Froch - Excellent level of competition.
9. Ward - Skills that last. Good athlete. Son of God.
8. Dawson - Amazing skills, mixed with good company.
9. Donaire - Sublime skills. Resume took a turn for the better, needs bigger opponents.
10. Amir Khan - Great athlete. Resume becoming deep. Almost there.

So you're saying even though Froch is CLEARLY operating amongst a much stronger pool of fighters than Donaire, which clearly makes it harder to become no.1, he gets penalised for it?

1. defeats cost ranking points

Chris John has never lost.

2. being the acknowledged number 1 in your weight class adds ranking points

Chris John can claim this.

3. quality and decisiveness of victories add ranking points, the better the win and performance, the higher the credit.

Chris John has beat the legend Juan Manuel Marquez.

He must be HIGH on your P4P list, right? Just behind Pac?

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by CFH

Hey jerks, when the posts you're quoting get so long that there is only one letter per line, maybe you should stop including the entire post-history in your quote. It makes the thread unreadable.

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He says after doing the exact same thing in his very next post!

Fucking hypocritical mods think they can do what they like. I say we overthrow 'em! Who's with me? ;D

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There are many letters per line in my post :p.

And I say bring the revolution! Saddo's needs to be purged of it's radical element and this will give me the justification I need to further tighten my despotic rule.

1. A draw agains a fighter with only 3 wins in his last 11 fights and none in his last 5 loses a serious number of ranking points.

2. With Juan Manuel Lopez, and Gamboa in his weight class John certainly cannot claim this.

3. Chris John did get onto my p4p list when he beat Marquez. But that was 5 years ago in 2006. As I said before, one of the key critieria is 'What have you done lately', and in under that criteria John has done very little.

If John was to fight and beat a Gamboa or Manuel Lopez he would be fufilling that criteria and absolutely would jump back into the p4p rankings.

All in accordance with a simple straight forward and systematic ranking criteria.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

So you're saying even though Froch is CLEARLY operating amongst a much stronger pool of fighters than Donaire, which clearly makes it harder to become no.1, he gets penalised for it?

1. defeats cost ranking points

Chris John has never lost.

2. being the acknowledged number 1 in your weight class adds ranking points

Chris John can claim this.

3. quality and decisiveness of victories add ranking points, the better the win and performance, the higher the credit.

Chris John has beat the legend Juan Manuel Marquez.

He must be HIGH on your P4P list, right? Just behind Pac?

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So much for John's so-called win over Marquez