IMO Hopkins won back what he never really lost last night....

when Roy Jones was TKO'd by Tarver, B-Hop moved ahead on the p4p list, he was the p4p champion up to 2005 when he was robbed twice again Taylor, and the the title of p4p champion went to Mayweather, and now Pacquiao, IMO B-Hop is once again the p4p best fighter in the world, on the grounds that his dominant win against prime fighter 17 yrs younger than him, has been a hell of a lot more impressive than any win that Pacquiao has had of late, also just look at the competition B-Hop has had, he still has been pretty much on the same winning streak he was on since he back p4p best, only "losses" should have been wins (both Taylor fights and Calzaghe)

Let's not over exaggerate Hopkins' victory. Jermain Taylor BEAT Hopkins twice. RJJ is better P4P all-time than Hopkins, and the best P4P fighter right now is Manny Pacquiao with Bernard in second.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Let's not over exaggerate Hopkins' victory. Jermain Taylor BEAT Hopkins twice. RJJ is better P4P all-time than Hopkins, and the best P4P fighter right now is Manny Pacquiao with Bernard in second.

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umm well most people i know would disagree that Taylor won either one of those fights, at best Taylor deserved a draw for the first fight and clearly lost the second fight, RJJ was more talented in the way he would win when he was at lightheavy, but on level of competition no, B-Hop has beaten more talented fighters while they are in their prime and he's far away from his, than RJJ has

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Let's not over exaggerate Hopkins' victory. Jermain Taylor BEAT Hopkins twice. RJJ is better P4P all-time than Hopkins, and the best P4P fighter right now is Manny Pacquiao with Bernard in second.

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How is Bernard second? I love the Nard but he lost to Calzaghe when Joe moved up in weight to fight him so there is no grounds for putting B Hop above Joe now. If you think B Hop deserved to win the fight against Joe then you'll have to put Juan Manuel Marquez as p4p number 1 for beating Manny in the eyes of most.

My top 5

1. Pacquaio
2. Calzaghe
3. Marquez
4. Hopkins
5. Vazquez

HOLD UP for YEARS Bernard Hopkins made his name fighting and beating guys who moved from 154 to 160 to challenge him and as soon as a true middleweight (with talent) fought him he got beat.

Roy Jones Jr. moved from 154 all the way to heavyweight and whipped everyone in his path. Bernard is a great fighter but Roy Jones Jr. is simply better

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Let's not over exaggerate Hopkins' victory. Jermain Taylor BEAT Hopkins twice. RJJ is better P4P all-time than Hopkins, and the best P4P fighter right now is Manny Pacquiao with Bernard in second.

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umm well most people i know would disagree that Taylor won either one of those fights, at best Taylor deserved a draw for the first fight and clearly lost the second fight, RJJ was more talented in the way he would win when he was at lightheavy, but on level of competition no, B-Hop has beaten more talented fighters while they are in their prime and he's far away from his, than RJJ has

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You're the first person I've heard say this? The controversy has always been around the first fight (which I still thought Jermain won). The second fight was close but no doubt that Jermain deserved to win it in my opinion.

For me it was close going into the final round but Taylor won the 12th round in the second fight hands down.

You're the first person I've heard say that Taylor clearly lost the second fight.

I got Pac as # 1 p4p on quality momentum and consistancy.Hopkins a much better all around fighter though.The man looked like he never left his prime last night.I really dislike p4p rankings....mind melts ???

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

I got Pac as # 1 p4p on quality momentum and consistancy.Hopkins a much better all around fighter though.The man looked like he never left his prime last night.I really dislike p4p rankings....mind melts ???

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I don't know to be honest. I mean Hopkins is undoubtly more slippery than Manny and better defensively but he has nowhere near the offensive arsenal of Manny Pacquaio.

Hopkins has done superbly but Manny has blasted through p4p stars and all time greats.

It's not really correct to say that B Hop is better overall than Manny, technically more acomplished for sure but Manny has things that B Hop doesn't have.

Both are tremendous fighters.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

I got Pac as # 1 p4p on quality momentum and consistency.Hopkins a much better all around fighter though.The man looked like he never left his prime last night.I really dislike p4p rankings....mind melts ???

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I don't know to be honest. I mean Hopkins is undoubtedly more slippery than Manny and better defensively but he has nowhere near the offensive arsenal of Manny Pacquaio.

Hopkins has done superbly but Manny has blasted through p4p stars and all time greats.

It's not really correct to say that B Hop is better overall than Manny, technically more accomplished for sure but Manny has things that B Hop doesn't have.

Both are tremendous fighters.

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Clarity on my part,for me in an all around p4p match up on skill set,Hopkins take's it.He displayed what a more diverse and quality defense mixed with precise punching is able to do against all out offensive minded arsenals.Granted Pavlik really never got on track but Hopkins had every thing to do with that.

You nailed it,they are both superb fighters, and posses quality's that the other does not.Pac has the mentality of a comer,he wants to impose & has total confidence in offense.Great bounce also,workrate.Bernard is different than his early day's,much more of a thinker,a defensive wiz,loves to exploit mistakes off the backfoot and Ive always thought he just likes to beat people up and prolong it while admiring his work....at times far too often,a bit content.

p4p discussions give me head aches,as you pointed out,Pac blasted through some quality top tier fighters,though fellow p4p'er Marquez held his own arguably.p4p now on consistency Manny #1.On Skills overall,prime for prime,Hopkins Imo.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

I got Pac as # 1 p4p on quality momentum and consistency.Hopkins a much better all around fighter though.The man looked like he never left his prime last night.I really dislike p4p rankings....mind melts ???

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I don't know to be honest. I mean Hopkins is undoubtedly more slippery than Manny and better defensively but he has nowhere near the offensive arsenal of Manny Pacquaio.

Hopkins has done superbly but Manny has blasted through p4p stars and all time greats.

It's not really correct to say that B Hop is better overall than Manny, technically more accomplished for sure but Manny has things that B Hop doesn't have.

Both are tremendous fighters.

---

Clarity on my part,for me in an all around p4p match up on skill set,Hopkins take's it.He displayed what a more diverse and quality defense mixed with precise punching is able to do against all out offensive minded arsenals.Granted Pavlik really never got on track but Hopkins had every thing to do with that.

You nailed it,they are both superb fighters, and posses quality's that the other does not.Pac has the mentality of a comer,he wants to impose & has total confidence in offense.Great bounce also,workrate.Bernard is different than his early day's,much more of a thinker,a defensive wiz,loves to exploit mistakes off the backfoot and Ive always thought he just likes to beat people up and prolong it while admiring his work....at times far too often,a bit content.

p4p discussions give me head aches,as you pointed out,Pac blasted through some quality top tier fighters,though fellow p4p'er Marquez held his own arguably.p4p now on consistency Manny #1.On Skills overall,prime for prime,Hopkins Imo.

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I'm not sure who I'd favour in a mythical matchup between the two. I reckon if they were the same size Manny would win to be honest. Although struggled with Marquez (hardly a disgrace) he blew away all time greats in Morales and Barrera, fighters who were bigger than him. Hopkins has never KO'd a fighter on that level, Tito and Oscar were smaller.

Against great fighters his own size, Jones, Calzaghe, Taylor and Tarver he came up short 4 times out of 5 although some were controversial.

Certainly I don't think Manny is worse than B Hop, not as well schooled defensively certainly but he's one hell of a fighter and has beaten every great fighter he has ever faced, something even Hopkins, in Jones and Calzaghe failed to do.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I don't know to be honest. I mean Hopkins is undoubtedly more slippery than Manny and better defensively but he has nowhere near the offensive arsenal of Manny Pacquaio.

Hopkins has done superbly but Manny has blasted through p4p stars and all time greats.

It's not really correct to say that B Hop is better overall than Manny, technically more accomplished for sure but Manny has things that B Hop doesn't have.

Both are tremendous fighters.

---

Clarity on my part,for me in an all around p4p match up on skill set,Hopkins take's it.He displayed what a more diverse and quality defense mixed with precise punching is able to do against all out offensive minded arsenals.Granted Pavlik really never got on track but Hopkins had every thing to do with that.

You nailed it,they are both superb fighters, and posses quality's that the other does not.Pac has the mentality of a comer,he wants to impose & has total confidence in offense.Great bounce also,workrate.Bernard is different than his early day's,much more of a thinker,a defensive wiz,loves to exploit mistakes off the backfoot and Ive always thought he just likes to beat people up and prolong it while admiring his work....at times far too often,a bit content.

p4p discussions give me head aches,as you pointed out,Pac blasted through some quality top tier fighters,though fellow p4p'er Marquez held his own arguably.p4p now on consistency Manny #1.On Skills overall,prime for prime,Hopkins Imo.

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I'm not sure who I'd favour in a mythical matchup between the two. I reckon if they were the same size Manny would win to be honest. Although struggled with Marquez (hardly a disgrace) he blew away all time greats in Morales and Barrera, fighters who were bigger than him. Hopkins has never KO'd a fighter on that level, Tito and Oscar were smaller.

Against great fighters his own size, Jones, Calzaghe, Taylor and Tarver he came up short 4 times out of 5 although some were controversial.

Certainly I don't think Manny is worse than B Hop, not as well schooled defensively certainly but he's one hell of a fighter and has beaten every great fighter he has ever faced, something even Hopkins, in Jones and Calzaghe failed to do.

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Well,you won't get me to disparage Pac's accomplishment's but it's off of the Marquez fights that I see Hopkins upending Pac...In a mythical match up of course ;D.He blew away Morales only after loosing the first fight.Tito may have been coming up but was capable at Middle and perceived to be a tremendous threat prior to the opening bell.No apology's on my behalf for Hopkins,He can be as frustrating to watch in spots as he is talented....Imo,He blew the first Taylor fight,That was where a Manny mentality would have come in handy down the stretch,10th & 11th rounds.He also lost to Calzaghe legit and was in deep wih an exploding on the scene Jones.Considering career point,Hopkins did mighty fine but came up short to a great lower (at the time) p4p talent in Jones.Jones won.Tell you what though,If they were to finally rematch based on last night and IF Jones takes Calzaghe......well, thats another thread entirely.

And Tarver a Great :-X;D.......jk & I hear you Bilbo,Manny is a tremendous fighter,to each his own.I'll take Hopkins p4p though.

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Let's not over exaggerate Hopkins' victory. Jermain Taylor BEAT Hopkins twice. RJJ is better P4P all-time than Hopkins, and the best P4P fighter right now is Manny Pacquiao with Bernard in second.

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umm well most people i know would disagree that Taylor won either one of those fights, at best Taylor deserved a draw for the first fight and clearly lost the second fight, RJJ was more talented in the way he would win when he was at lightheavy, but on level of competition no, B-Hop has beaten more talented fighters while they are in their prime and he's far away from his, than RJJ has

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A young 24 year old RJJ with only one hand schooled a mature 28 year old Hopkins. That win is probably better than any of Hopkins' wins and then a year later he took apart p4p no.1 James Toney with ease. Another that for me Hopkins has never matched. I also wouldn't fancy Hopkins' chances against Ruiz. He is clearly better p4p but in an actual matchup my money would be on Ruiz. People quite often underrate Jones' opposition.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Let's not over exaggerate Hopkins' victory. Jermain Taylor BEAT Hopkins twice. RJJ is better P4P all-time than Hopkins, and the best P4P fighter right now is Manny Pacquiao with Bernard in second.

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How is Bernard second? I love the Nard but he lost to Calzaghe when Joe moved up in weight to fight him so there is no grounds for putting B Hop above Joe now. If you think B Hop deserved to win the fight against Joe then you'll have to put Juan Manuel Marquez as p4p number 1 for beating Manny in the eyes of most.

My top 5

1. Pacquaio
2. Calzaghe
3. Marquez
4. Hopkins
5. Vazquez

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Juan Manuel Marquez won in the eyes of most? Says who? Definitely on here that wasn't the case here or with the media. Pacquaio won that fight, and Hopkins won against Calzaghe. I think agree though that Marquez should be higher then Hopkins because of the simple fact he is better then Bernard... well more effective than Bernard.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Let's not over exaggerate Hopkins' victory. Jermain Taylor BEAT Hopkins twice. RJJ is better P4P all-time than Hopkins, and the best P4P fighter right now is Manny Pacquiao with Bernard in second.

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How is Bernard second? I love the Nard but he lost to Calzaghe when Joe moved up in weight to fight him so there is no grounds for putting B Hop above Joe now. If you think B Hop deserved to win the fight against Joe then you'll have to put Juan Manuel Marquez as p4p number 1 for beating Manny in the eyes of most.

My top 5

1. Pacquaio
2. Calzaghe
3. Marquez
4. Hopkins
5. Vazquez

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Juan Manuel Marquez won in the eyes of most? Says who? Definitely on here that wasn't the case here or with the media. Pacquaio won that fight, and Hopkins won against Calzaghe. I think agree though that Marquez should be higher then Hopkins because of the simple fact he is better then Bernard... well more effective than Bernard.

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Well I don't want to split hairs they were both close fights although if you create a poll I'm sure you'll find more people felt Marquez beat Manny than Bhop beat Calzaghe.


Anyway ultimately I don't care either way. This is a prime example of why you are such a douchebag though, you try and definitely claim that your opinion i.e Pacquaio beat Marquez, Spinks beat Taylor 'emphatically', Hopkins beat Calzaghe etc is correct and that everyone else is wrong.

In a close fight the scoring is subjective and sometimes there is no clear winner, it just depends on what the judges like best.

Your narrow mindedness coupled with your smarmy smartass tone makes you one of the more annoying posters here on Saddos

Taeth i have to disagree with you here majority of websites and ringside viewers, had JMM winning the 2nd fight. It was close enough that it could of gone either way, but i also thought JMM won by 1 point just like i thought he won by 1 point in the first fight.

• Most boxing experts had Marquez winning over Pacquiao:

- Associated Press:114-113 Marquez
- Joe Santoliquito:115-112 Marquez
- Dan Rafael, ESPN.com: 114-113 Marquez
- Darius Ortiz, ESPN.com:114-113 Marquez
- Eric Raskin, ESPN.com:114-113 Marquez
- Brian Kenny, Friday Night Fights:115-112 Marquez
- Scott Mallon, Ring Magazine / Boxing News / The Fist / Boxing Digest:114-113 Marquez
- Yahoo Sports:115-112 Marquez
- Fight News.com:115-112 Marquez
- Steve Carp, Las Vegas Review Journal: 114-113 Marquez
- Norm Fraunheim, Arizona Republic:114-113 Marquez
- Rich Marrotta, Top Rank TV:114-113 Marquez
- Kieran Mulvaney, Reuters:114-113 Marquez
- DogHouseBoxing:114-113 Marquez
- Brett Conway, MaxBoxing.com:114-113 Marquez
- Rick Reeno, BoxingScene.com:114-113 Marquez
- Gary Randall, MaxBoxing.com:114-113 Marquez
- Bart Barry, 15Rounds.com:115-113 Marquez
- Bruce McTavish, International Judge:115-112 Marquez
- Francis Ochoa, Philippine Daily Inquirer:114-113 Marquez
- Scott Christ, BadLeftHook.com:114-113 Marquez
- William Detloff, The Ring Magazine:115-113 Marquez
- Ron Borges, TheSweetScience.com:114-113 Marquez
- Bert Sugar:Marquez
- Max Kellerman & Bob Papa:Marquez in both fights
- Nonito Donaire:114-113 Marquez
- Filipino Sports Analysts Ronnie Nathanielsz, Recah Trinidad and Ed Picson all picked Marquez.