What if they had the ref from the 17th.

I think the ref from Collazo-Berto would have changed this entire fight. Mosley would have had a point taken away early, he wouldn't have been able to clinch, and man handle Margarito. IMO it would have went much more like Cotto-Margarito except Shane would get hit more and wouldn't be stopped. I mean everytime Margarito started to get going Mosley would tie him up and muscle him around. Margarito has always used his punch output not physical muscle to bully other fighters IMO his strength has been greatly over exaggerated, it was his stamina and ability to take punches that made him so hard to beat because everytime you throw a punch whether it landed or not 3 punches would be coming back, and that is enough to back anyone up, but Margarito has usually come in around 160 pounds, and Cotto was coming in at that during his stay at 140, and Mosley came in the same weight as Margarito but shorter and more sturdy. Physically I say both are stronger than Margarito, but without the clinch his workrate and ability to absorb punches IMO would have beaten both of them. I honestly think having this ref who allowed the clinch(like most refs) really helped Mosley, whereas the ref Berto had really hurt him because he could have and wanted to tie Collazo up the same way like he did against Forbes, but wasn't allowed to.

Mosley fought something like Hatton throughout the fight, at times.

And how would either of them done without the clinch? I mean Hatton didn't get to show everything against Mayweather because Cortez was always breaking them up, and I think that hurt Hatton in that fight. Not that he would have won because Mayweather has amazing defensive against anything but a fast southpaw, but it really changed that fight, it changed Holyfield-Tyson, it changes every Klitschko fight. I kept saying that all Cotto needed to do was clinch more and work out of the clinch, and muscle Margarito around, and thats what Mosley did, and I feel vindicated in that.

There wasn't a ref in the world who could have saved Tony tonight. He was dominated. Yes, a few more clinches might have allowed Cotto go the distance an lose a decision instead of being stopped. If the ref had been stupid as the ref in the Berto fight, it wouldn't have mattered because Shane was getting the better of Tony inside. Perhaps it would have gone on a little longer, but in the the end would have been the same. The ref being overly sensitive to clinches helped Collazo and contributed to it being a very close fight that many people think Collazo won, yes. Maybe Berto wins two more rounds if he was allowed to clinch. Either way, same result. Berto won.

Tony got his ass kicked from LA to TJ. Beaten, dominated. It was not unlike the way Mayweather dismantled Hatton. If Hatton had been allow by Cortez to clinch more, would Hatton have won? I think not. Maybe he doesn't get KO'd, but he still loses. With or without a single clinch, Tony was going to lose the fight, just like Cotto would have lost (but probably gone the distance) if he would have clinched more.

I think a warning and a point deduction would have been completely acceptable. It wouldnt have changed the fact that Mosley was winning every round though. It wouldnt have made too much of a difference IMO.

Tony almost tackles people he comes forward so much, instead of getting bullrushed into the ropes like Cotto, Shane decided to tie him up and hold his ground. Leave it to Teath to nit-pick a brilliant performance by Shane....

Sigh did you guys see Cotto-Margarito? Cotto was dominating Margarito for the first six rounds on the inside, on the outside, everywhere. Mosley never let Margarito get off on the inside, and they hardly fought on the inside that much. It mostly involved Mosley moving away or standing at distance and loading up on shots, Margarito needs you on the ropes before he can be truly effective, and Mosley due to clinching was allowed to reduce his output in order to never get caught on the ropes, Margarito is like a train, and he needs to build momentum, but because of clinching he could never get that momentum going, I love that Mosley did it. Margarito is maybe the only guy at the top of the sport that I hate and nobody is happier that he lost than me. I am just saying refs can change fights.

If my grandma had wings she'd be a plane... :rolleyes: :beat:

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Sigh did you guys see Cotto-Margarito? Cotto was dominating Margarito for the first six rounds on the inside, on the outside, everywhere. Mosley never let Margarito get off on the inside, and they hardly fought on the inside that much. It mostly involved Mosley moving away or standing at distance and loading up on shots, Margarito needs you on the ropes before he can be truly effective, and Mosley due to clinching was allowed to reduce his output in order to never get caught on the ropes, Margarito is like a train, and he needs to build momentum, but because of clinching he could never get that momentum going, I love that Mosley did it. Margarito is maybe the only guy at the top of the sport that I hate and nobody is happier that he lost than me. I am just saying refs can change fights.

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A lot of things can change how a fight looks but Margarito was going to lose. It was one sided, man. Please listen to yourself my friend. This is a trivial topic. Mosley landed that right hand all night and going to the body early and often is what kept Margarito honest in his bull charging tactic. He had to bring his elbows down and this delays the timing on his headshots. How about we talk about what really could've changed the fight significantly, the plaster in his handwraps. I'm sure the punches would've been more significant and Tony would've threw his 100 any kind of punches just so he could land as many as he would know he just needs to land punches. And his confidence would've been much more solid coming into the fight and throughout trouble in the fight.

I don't see how knowledgable people think Margarito not being able to throw a hundred or more punches a round doesn't change things... If Mosley doesn't clinch, Tony throws more punches, and then Mosley doesn't have the space.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I don't see how knowledgable people think Margarito not being able to throw a hundred or more punches a round doesn't change things... If Mosley doesn't clinch, Tony throws more punches, and then Mosley doesn't have the space.

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I understand what you are saying, the clinching certainly cut down on the output, and honestly, I think that Shane being so much stronger in the clinch, backing Tony up to the ropes effected Tony mentally. The end result was a complete and total destruction.

But there were many times that Shane didn't clinch. He pushed off Tony to create space for himself to punch. He worked and the inside and punched his way out. When Tony was at a distance and coming forward, Shane did a great job controlling distance, slipping, rolling, and defending with his hands. Unlike many of Mosley's fights, he used his jab very effectively. Even without the clinch he was backing Tony up from time to time to disasterous result for Margarito. He was beating Tony to the punch everytime from the start.

So, it'll repeat what I said before and expand a little. Had the ref been stricker about clinching, the fight might not have been the lopsided total beatdown that it was, but Tony's output would have been decreased because he Shane would have still been the aggressor, still been making Tony miss, still strafing him from the outside. For example, Hopkins didn't kill Pavlik's output only with the clinch. He did it because he was so much faster and better technically that he was getting off first every time beating him up.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I don't see how knowledgable people think Margarito not being able to throw a hundred or more punches a round doesn't change things... If Mosley doesn't clinch, Tony throws more punches, and then Mosley doesn't have the space.

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I understand what you are saying, the clinching certainly cut down on the output, and honestly, I think that Shane being so much stronger in the clinch, backing Tony up to the ropes effected Tony mentally. The end result was a complete and total destruction.

But there were many times that Shane didn't clinch. He pushed off Tony to create space for himself to punch. He worked and the inside and punched his way out. When Tony was at a distance and coming forward, Shane did a great job controlling distance, slipping, rolling, and defending with his hands. Unlike many of Mosley's fights, he used his jab very effectively. Even without the clinch he was backing Tony up from time to time to disasterous result for Margarito. He was beating Tony to the punch everytime from the start.

So, it'll repeat what I said before and expand a little. Had the ref been stricker about clinching, the fight might not have been the lopsided total beatdown that it was, but Tony's output would have been decreased because he Shane would have still been the aggressor, still been making Tony miss, still strafing him from the outside. For example, Hopkins didn't kill Pavlik's output only with the clinch. He did it because he was so much faster and better technically that he was getting off first every time beating him up.

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I honestly thought all Shane would do is clinch and just try to survive but circumstances such as " No more Jin & Juice Mosley" then the revelation of the plaster in Tony's wraps, just might have changed things for the old man Sugar 'Shane' Mosley. It was like ok, now I know why you were brutalizing other fighters but tonight, that ain't going to happen with out your loaded wraps I will own you and he came out and did just that. Shane did look great, fast, jabbing, moving, throwing bombs, changing the tempo of his speed and power shots... Mosley really mixed it all in very well. 'My favorite line has to be... "Knock the grease off of him!" Sho'nuff, the grease from his mullet was flying all over the place. ;D

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I don't see how knowledgable people think Margarito not being able to throw a hundred or more punches a round doesn't change things... If Mosley doesn't clinch, Tony throws more punches, and then Mosley doesn't have the space.

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I understand what you are saying, the clinching certainly cut down on the output, and honestly, I think that Shane being so much stronger in the clinch, backing Tony up to the ropes effected Tony mentally. The end result was a complete and total destruction.

But there were many times that Shane didn't clinch. He pushed off Tony to create space for himself to punch. He worked and the inside and punched his way out. When Tony was at a distance and coming forward, Shane did a great job controlling distance, slipping, rolling, and defending with his hands. Unlike many of Mosley's fights, he used his jab very effectively. Even without the clinch he was backing Tony up from time to time to disasterous result for Margarito. He was beating Tony to the punch everytime from the start.

So, it'll repeat what I said before and expand a little. Had the ref been stricker about clinching, the fight might not have been the lopsided total beatdown that it was, but Tony's output would have been decreased because he Shane would have still been the aggressor, still been making Tony miss, still strafing him from the outside. For example, Hopkins didn't kill Pavlik's output only with the clinch. He did it because he was so much faster and better technically that he was getting off first every time beating him up.

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You can't really compare Mosley to Hopkins, he's not that level technical fighter. But you worded that very well, and after seeing the fight again I am inclined to partially agree with you. I think Mosley's durability is something Cotto could have really used. I've said plenty of times if Cotto had a better chin very few people in the history of the sport would have done well against him except maybe the PBF, SRL type guys that move so well.

The referee from the week before should have let Berto do his job. The point should never have been taken away. PERIOD.

Unlike the week before. This referee (Raul Caiz) did a GREAT job. He let the fighters fight. Just as I felt about Berto, Mosely did nothing wrong. He did not hold excessively. He was even on top of his game enough to clinch a bit while being offensive.

Shades of the original "Sugar Ray"

Margo was out gunned. Mosely fought an almost perfect fight. I still would have liked to see him go to the body a bit more.

This Mosely is one of the greats of "modern time" and I believe he could have held up well in any era (prior to the twelve round championship days). He fights well with everyone they put him in with.

Boxing is a great sport and styles do make fights. I still think that Mosely fought the wrong fight against Cotto and could have won that night. And as much as many of you will think I'm off my rocker... I really think that had Cotto fought a bit more and boxed a bit less he would have had a better chance of winning against the "Tijuana Tortilla"

But.. Things did not go that way and now we have what we have. MORE EXCITEMENT

This handwrap situation can do wonders for Cotto's confidence going forward and especially if there is a second go with Tony.

I bet Cotto was wondering why he felt so beaten up the day after the Margo fight. He was asking himself why he had bruises on area's of his body that he did not even know he had! This is because he was probably being hit with what some people will tell you was as hard as concrete. I remember years ago when Panama Lewis was cought playing with the padding on Louis Resto's gloves in the Garden on the undercard of a big night of boxing. Resto (a light hitting opponent type fighter) beat this poor up and comer (Billy Ray Collins) to a pulp. The controversy raged and I saw Alexis Arguello give an interview giving his thoughts on the situation. The all time great and equally as classy Arguello had lost two times via brutal knockout to Aaron Pryor (another Panama Lewis trained fighter). In his interview Alexis would not point any fingers or offer any excuses nor try to take away anything from Aaron Pryors two amazing nights of Glory but he did say that for days after those two losses he was so beaten up and had knots and bruises on his head and body that he had never felt in all of his years as a fighter. He just said to himself "wow that guy has rocks for fists"

This thing with Margo's hand wrap may be nothing but it will sell lots of tickets going forward!!!

If someone puts their knee under your Bollocks, its up to you to move its called Technique.