Greatest fighter of the 2000's
I don't believe this chapter has been finished just yet... but here's a "Ring Magazine" opinion.
Great debate: The case for Pacquiao
Great debate: The case for Pacquiao
Posted May. 12, 2009 at 09:28pm
By Michael Rosenthal
Buzz up!
I stated in my Top 10 list on Monday that Manny Pacquiao – not Floyd Mayweather Jr. – is the best fighter of this decade.
Some readers agreed. Many didn’t. One guy was so incensed that he vowed to get all his friends to boycott me, which I think might’ve been going overboard. This isn’t life or death, after all; it’s supposed to be fun.
The reactions got me thinking: OK, what is the overriding reason I believe Pacquiao is better than Mayeather, as well as Juan Manuel Marquez, Bernard Hopkins, Joe Calzaghe, Winky Wright and a few others who might have credentials?
The answer finally became clear: Because Pacquiao moves me, as does Marquez to a lesser extent. The others don’t.
I acknowledge that a strong case can be made that Mayweather is the best fighter of the 2000s. He is the most naturally gifted of these fighters and has a perfect record (39-0, 25 knockouts). He has what it takes to win and does so, plain and simple.
If that’s how you define the best fighter, then he’s your man. God bless you.
That’s not my definition, though. To me, skills and winning are only part of the equation.
I admire the sublime ability, speed and athleticism of Mayweather, as I did Pernell Whitaker. They are virtuoso boxers, master technicians, certainly among the best of their eras. At the same time, there’s something missing with both of them, in my opinion. I call it the “thrill factor.”
To me, the greatest fighters aren’t just admirable; they’re part technician and all warrior. They, too, have exceptional skills and win consistently but also take risks, both in terms of who they fight and in the ring. They seek out the best possible opponents and then go to war, putting both their record and well being on the line.
That’s what fans pay to see – fights, not dance contests. They want those thrills, the kind that Pacquiao provided in a heaping dose with his one-punch knockout of Ricky Hatton on May 2.
“The great matchmaker-promoter Teddy Brenner once said, ‘There’s no room for perfection in boxing,’” said television analyst Larry Merchant. “What he was saying is that fans don’t come for a clinic. And I think, unlike other games, fans count. … I generally give a close round to the fighter who is making the fight, the aggressor, the guy throwing the most punches. Ultimately, I think that’s also how we judge who the best pound-for-pound fighter is if it’s close.
“When I look at the phantom list of greats, I see guys who sought out challenges. Robinson fighting LaMotta six times, Leonard fighting Duran three times and Hearns twice and then moving up to fight Hagler. That’s greatness. They didn’t always win but so what? …
“When I look at Pacquiao,” Merchant continued, “I see that he fought Morales three times, Barrera twice, Marquez twice and then moved up to fight the top guys at 140 and 147 pounds at whatever status they had at the time. That to me says a lot. I think Pacquiao is better than Mayweather. That doesn’t mean he would beat him because Mayweather is naturally the bigger man.
“If you look back at the record, though, I think it shows that Pacquiao is better. I want someone willing to take risks, someone who moves me.”
I feel I could build a very strong case for Pacquiao against Mayweather based strictly on accomplishments.
Pacquiao has faced better opposition, most notably fighting the three future hall of famers from Mexico –- Morales, Barrera and Marquez –- a total of seven times (going 5-1-1). Mayweather also has faced some elite fighters –- Genaro Hernandez, Jose Luis Castillo and Diego Corrales, among others -- but has been extremely selective.
Pacquiao won three major titles in three weight classes (WBC junior lightweight, WBC lightweight and THE RING junior welterweight) and beat Oscar De La Hoya at welterweight within a span of 14 months, a feat that has drawn comparisons to the great Henry Armstrong.
Under the tutelage of trainer Freddie Roach, Pacquiao has evolved from a one-handed brawler into a complete boxer-puncher who seems to be improving at a rapid rate 14 years into his professional career. I’m not sure people realize how rare that is.
Pacquiao and Mayweather have two common opponents, De La Hoya and Hatton. Pacquiao dismantled both while Mayweather barely beat De La Hoya and took much longer to stop Hatton, although De La Hoya had weight issues against Pacquiao.
“Let’s just look at the two fights against Hatton,” said Mike Silver, an historian and author of The Arc of Boxing. “Mayweather calls Hatton ‘the toughest fighter I ever faced’ and Pacquiao utterly destroyed him. C’mon, if Mayweather has the skills he professes to have, he should’ve dominated a club fighter like Hatton.
“And a prime De La Hoya beats Mayweather. Every time (De La Hoya) threw the left jab, Mayweather had no answer. A great fighter doesn’t react that way to a left jab.”
I acknowledge again that Mayweather’s proponents could come back with their own arguments. He’s a better boxer, he’s unbeaten, he usually wins easily, he’s won more major titles than Pacquiao. They probably have more on their list.
And they'll mention the fact that too much has been made of Pacquiao's last three victories, against tough, but limited David Diaz, a depleted De La Hoya and Hatton.
However, when you add the “thrill factor” into the equation, I feel that puts Pacquiao over the top.
Pacquiao and Mayweather probably will meet in the ring if the latter beats Marquez on July 18, which illustrates the spirit of the two fighters: Pacquiao would be the one taking the risk by fighting a bigger man.
That’s what Pacquiao is all about. And why I believe he’s the greater fighter.
Michael Rosenthal’s column appears Wednesday’s. He can be reached at RingTVeditor@yahoo.com
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
This is almost exactly like what I talked about in this other thread about who is higher in the ATG lists, Pacquiao or Mayweather.
I actually feel pretty awesome that someone else sees exactly the point I'm trying to make!
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
Roy Jones up to 2004
Pacquiao
Mayweather
Bernard Hopkins
Joe Calzaghe
JMM
are all top candidates, IMO Pacquiao has to win... for now. Mayweather could still beat him this year and that would place Floyd at #1.
My order would be
1. Pacquiao
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Mayweather
4. Calzaghe/JMM
5. RJJ
That being said I think Roy at the turn of the millenia kicks the crap out of these other guys p4p.
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
1. Mayweather
2. Pac
3. Hopkins
4. Calzaghe
5. JMM
6. RJJ
7. Winky
8. Mosley
9. Barrera
10. Morales
Probably left someone out but thats my list off the top of my head.
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
Are we talking about fighter of this decade (2000 to 2009) then this is my list:
1. PAC
2. PBF
3. B-Hop
4. Calzaghe
5. RJJ
6. JMM
7. Winky
8. Mosley
9. Barrera
10. Morales
Side notes: Calzaghe defeated 2 boxers in my top 10 list... PAC defeated 3 boxers in my top 10 (4th one coming soon ;) )...
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Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
Did this in another thread, but have re-evaluated a bit since.
1. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Juan Manuel Marquez
5. Shane Mosley
6. Marco Antonio Barrera
7. Joe Calzaghe
8. Winky Wright
9. Erik Morales
10. Kostya Tszyu
Combination of ability & what they've done.
Narrowly missing out based on records:
Wlad & Vital Klitschko: the division has stagnated in their time & Vitali took too much time off.
Vernon Forrest: had some great wins but the KO against Mayorga hurt him how the Sanders fight hurt Wlad. But has been around the top most of the decade & beaten some top fighters.
Jose Luis Castillo: was very close, but the way he has faded in the last few years means I had to leave him out. However, was involved in my choice for the best fight of the decade against Corrales.
Diego Corrales: lost some big fights, but was never in a bad one. If I did this again he might well get in there. Certainly contributed more to the sport in way of entertainment that Wright.
Roy Jones Jr, Lennox Lewis, Oscar De La Hoya, Felix Trinidad: Felt all these guys did their best work in the previous decade & have not been dominant enough throughout for me, whilst Lennox & Tito effectively were both done by 2002. Jones would be in there but for the fact that he has carried on long past the point where it could be said he'd lost it. This is why Tszyu is in there & he isn't.
Israel Vazquez & Rafael Marquez: Have simply not done enough comparatively with the other guys, despite being in great fights.
Probably still left someone out.
On a side note, whilst I can definitely understand having Pacquiao as #1, using Merchant, who very clearly flat out hates Mayweather to support the idea, isn't a great choice. Also Mayweather didn't call Hatton his toughest opponent, he was simply complimentary post-fight. He in fact named Emmanuel Augustus as toughest guy he'd ever fought, and if you've seen the punishment Augustus took in that fight you'd understand why. The guy who gave him the hardest fight is clearly Castillo. Not saying Pac doesn't deserve to be #1, I can definitely see strong arguments why, I just think the writer could have picked better people to support the argument.
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
Pacquiao moves me....he completes me....ahihihi
Seriously, the article was a good read. :scratchchin::scratchchin::scratchchin:
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
1-Floyd Mayweather
2-Bernard Hopkins
3-Manny Pacquiao
4- Joe Calzaghe
5-Shane Mosley
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
Just take away his win against Sasakul... and VIOLA!... the greatest fighter of 2000's. ;D
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/3023/small2v.jpg
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Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
The Ring Magazine's 10 Greatest fighters by decade
10: Greatest fighters by decade
Posted May. 10, 2009 at 11:48pm
By Michael Rosenthal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7C-i...layer_embedded
A weekly boxing list compiled by Michael Rosenthal. This week: Best fighter pound-for-pound in each of the past 10 decades.
1910s: Sam Langford -- Small man beat the best big men of his day. Runner up: Jimmy Wilde.
1920s: Benny Leonard -- Some still say he’s the greatest lightweight ever. Runner up: Harry Greb.
1930s: Henry Armstrong -- Held titles in three weight classes simultaneously. Runner up: Tony Canzoneri.
1940s: Ray Robinson – Untouchable as a welterweight. Runner up: Willie Pep
1950s: Ray Robinson – Also one of the greatest middleweights ever. Runner up: Archie Moore.
1960s: Muhammad Ali – The Greatest really was the greatest at this time. Runner up: Carlos Ortiz.
1970s: Roberto Duran – Virtually untouchable as a lightweight. Runner up: Carlos Monzon.
1980s: Ray Leonard: His victories over Duran, Hearns and Hagler were epic. Runner up: Julio Cesar Chavez.
1990s: Roy Jones Jr. – At his best, he inspired awe. Runner up: Pernell Whitaker.
2000s: Manny Pacquiao – Sorry Floyd but you need to fight the best to be the best. Runner up: Floyd Mayweather.
Michael Rosenthal can be reached at RingTVeditor@yahoo.com
Doug Fischer contributed to this report
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
The Ring Magazine's 10 Greatest fighters by decade
10: Greatest fighters by decade
Posted May. 10, 2009 at 11:48pm
By Michael Rosenthal
1990s: Roy Jones Jr. – At his best, he inspired awe. Runner up: Pernell Whitaker.
2000s: Manny Pacquiao – Sorry Floyd but you need to fight the best to be the best. Runner up: Floyd Mayweather.
Michael Rosenthal can be reached at RingTVeditor@yahoo.com
Doug Fischer contributed to this report
Wait a second.... so Floyd isn't #1 because "you need to fight the best to be the best....", but then he picks Roy Jones over Pernell Whitaker? That seems like a bit of a contradiction to me.
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
The Ring Magazine's 10 Greatest fighters by decade
10: Greatest fighters by decade
Posted May. 10, 2009 at 11:48pm
By Michael Rosenthal
1990s: Roy Jones Jr. – At his best, he inspired awe. Runner up: Pernell Whitaker.
2000s: Manny Pacquiao – Sorry Floyd but you need to fight the best to be the best. Runner up: Floyd Mayweather.
Michael Rosenthal can be reached at RingTVeditor@yahoo.com
Doug Fischer contributed to this report
Wait a second.... so Floyd isn't #1 because "you need to fight the best to be the best....", but then he picks Roy Jones over Pernell Whitaker? That seems like a bit of a contradiction to me.
Maybe it's not in p4p category. PBF and Pac happens to be just 1 div apart.
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
The Ring Magazine's 10 Greatest fighters by decade
10: Greatest fighters by decade
Posted May. 10, 2009 at 11:48pm
By Michael Rosenthal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7C-i...layer_embedded
A weekly boxing list compiled by Michael Rosenthal. This week: Best fighter pound-for-pound in each of the past 10 decades.
1910s: Sam Langford -- Small man beat the best big men of his day. Runner up: Jimmy Wilde.
1920s: Benny Leonard -- Some still say he’s the greatest lightweight ever. Runner up: Harry Greb.
1930s: Henry Armstrong -- Held titles in three weight classes simultaneously. Runner up: Tony Canzoneri.
1940s: Ray Robinson – Untouchable as a welterweight. Runner up: Willie Pep
1950s: Ray Robinson – Also one of the greatest middleweights ever. Runner up: Archie Moore.
1960s: Muhammad Ali – The Greatest really was the greatest at this time. Runner up: Carlos Ortiz.
1970s: Roberto Duran – Virtually untouchable as a lightweight. Runner up: Carlos Monzon.
1980s: Ray Leonard: His victories over Duran, Hearns and Hagler were epic. Runner up: Julio Cesar Chavez.
1990s: Roy Jones Jr. – At his best, he inspired awe. Runner up: Pernell Whitaker.
2000s: Manny Pacquiao – Sorry Floyd but you need to fight the best to be the best. Runner up: Floyd Mayweather.
Michael Rosenthal can be reached at RingTVeditor@yahoo.com
Doug Fischer contributed to this report
Im not really gonna argue on the 20's and ETC, because its really hard to tell but heres few names i feel are up to date.
40's = Joe Louis, Willie Pep.
50's = Rocky Marciano, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles.
70's = Alexis Arguello, Ruben Olivares, Carlos Monzon, Bob Foster, Muhammad Ali.
80's = Marvin Hagler, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, Thomas Hearns, Julio Cesar Chavez.
90's = Ricardo Lopez, Pernell Whitaker, Evander Holyfield, Oscar De La Hoya, Felix Trinidad.
00's = Joe Calzaghe, Floyd Mayweather Jr, Bernard Hopkins, Juan Manuel Marquez.
Some names there that i feel are debatable with the names the article listed.
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
The Ring Magazine's 10 Greatest fighters by decade
10: Greatest fighters by decade
Posted May. 10, 2009 at 11:48pm
By Michael Rosenthal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7C-i...layer_embedded
A weekly boxing list compiled by Michael Rosenthal. This week: Best fighter pound-for-pound in each of the past 10 decades.
1910s: Sam Langford -- Small man beat the best big men of his day. Runner up: Jimmy Wilde.
1920s: Benny Leonard -- Some still say he’s the greatest lightweight ever. Runner up: Harry Greb.
1930s: Henry Armstrong -- Held titles in three weight classes simultaneously. Runner up: Tony Canzoneri.
1940s: Ray Robinson – Untouchable as a welterweight. Runner up: Willie Pep
1950s: Ray Robinson – Also one of the greatest middleweights ever. Runner up: Archie Moore.
1960s: Muhammad Ali – The Greatest really was the greatest at this time. Runner up: Carlos Ortiz.
1970s: Roberto Duran – Virtually untouchable as a lightweight. Runner up: Carlos Monzon.
1980s: Ray Leonard: His victories over Duran, Hearns and Hagler were epic. Runner up: Julio Cesar Chavez.
1990s: Roy Jones Jr. – At his best, he inspired awe. Runner up: Pernell Whitaker.
2000s: Manny Pacquiao – Sorry Floyd but you need to fight the best to be the best. Runner up: Floyd Mayweather.
Michael Rosenthal can be reached at RingTVeditor@yahoo.com
Doug Fischer contributed to this report
00's = Joe Calzaghe, Floyd Mayweather Jr, Bernard Hopkins, Juan Manuel Marquez.
Pac has OFFICIALLY better 00's resume than those guys.
Re: Greatest fighter of the 2000's
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr. Steelhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
The Ring Magazine's 10 Greatest fighters by decade
10: Greatest fighters by decade
Posted May. 10, 2009 at 11:48pm
By Michael Rosenthal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7C-i...layer_embedded
A weekly boxing list compiled by Michael Rosenthal. This week: Best fighter pound-for-pound in each of the past 10 decades.
1910s: Sam Langford -- Small man beat the best big men of his day. Runner up: Jimmy Wilde.
1920s: Benny Leonard -- Some still say he’s the greatest lightweight ever. Runner up: Harry Greb.
1930s: Henry Armstrong -- Held titles in three weight classes simultaneously. Runner up: Tony Canzoneri.
1940s: Ray Robinson – Untouchable as a welterweight. Runner up: Willie Pep
1950s: Ray Robinson – Also one of the greatest middleweights ever. Runner up: Archie Moore.
1960s: Muhammad Ali – The Greatest really was the greatest at this time. Runner up: Carlos Ortiz.
1970s: Roberto Duran – Virtually untouchable as a lightweight. Runner up: Carlos Monzon.
1980s: Ray Leonard: His victories over Duran, Hearns and Hagler were epic. Runner up: Julio Cesar Chavez.
1990s: Roy Jones Jr. – At his best, he inspired awe. Runner up: Pernell Whitaker.
2000s: Manny Pacquiao – Sorry Floyd but you need to fight the best to be the best. Runner up: Floyd Mayweather.
Michael Rosenthal can be reached at RingTVeditor@yahoo.com
Doug Fischer contributed to this report
00's = Joe Calzaghe, Floyd Mayweather Jr, Bernard Hopkins, Juan Manuel Marquez.
Pac has
OFFICIALLY better 00's resume than those guys.
I never said he didn't read my post again.
