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Hope this does not turn into a massive argument between Pac Lovers and haters.
In my eyes he just seems to get better and better with each fight.
How great is he?
How great will he be if he beats Cotto?
I will stick my head above the parapit and say that he is a p4p top 10 all time great and is getting better.
The greatest fighter since Ali IMO.
Ok,now all the Pac Haters can slag me off.
If he beats Cotto an argument can be made to put him in the top 10 of all time. He's already an all-time great; hell he might already be a top 10 ATG.
He will go down as the best fighter of his generation IMO. Better than Hopkins, Jones, Mayweather, Calzaghe, Ruiz, Zelenoff etc.
I think a conservative estimate is that he's somewhere top 50 right now, its just a matter of where, I doubt many will agree with top ten, I'm a big fan and I don't. Of course we have a few people (you know who you are ;D) who come up with any excuse they can to discredit any win he's had but like I said I think most would agree top 50, just a matter of where. Its hard for me to say because I would have to come up with a top 50 list first. Probably 25-40, what he's done is remarkable.
Erm, i think thats inevitable. :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Personally, although its odd, i'm still unsure on what level to place him, very good for sure, but other than that i don't know. What i will say though is that if he beats Cotto the Pac-haters will have very few avenues left, if any. This is the fight where we learn most about Pacquiao.
I think that's probably fair. I wouldn't personally have him ranked anywhere above 20-30 right now (I haven't given it any though really), but I'm sure a case could be made for him to be higher than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
My opinion on him is riding largely on the Pac-Cotto fight, tbh. Morales beat him, JMM beat him twice [imo], DLH was a shell/punch bag, Hatton threw his face at Pacquiao's fists. Yet clearly he is a great fighter. Handspeed, headmovement, footwork, ability to execute a gameplan [notice I don't say Ring IQ], a good chin [will be a great chin if he can survive a few clean shots from Cotto, though we may not see this happen] and a lot of heart, coupled with his ability to shift weight whilst maintaining/improving his level of performance and the exciting, aggressive style he employs make him one of the more complete fighters I've seen. IMO, if he beats Cotto I would rate him top 10 p4p, and if he can beat Mayweather after that then possibly top 8 p4p.
Sorry i think Manny Pacquiao is a great fighter, but i still do see him as a bit overrated. He beat a shot Erik Morales, the same Erik Morales who was embarrassed by Zahir Raheem. I see this fight again not long ago, and Erik Morales was worse than i remember, he was slow and incredibly sloppy.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
I couldn't believe how Erik Morales become shot overnight, he was very good in the 1st Manny Pacquiao fight, his last great performance. Then in the Zahir Raheem fight it was like i wasn't watching Erik Morales.
He deserves credit for beating MAB in there 1st meeting, and i fully do give him credit, but not for the 2nd fight really. ODLH well i don't need to point out the obvious weight issues.
Ricky Hatton had seen better days although i give Manny Pacquiao, credit for beating him at 140. And he does deserve credit for that, i thought he lost to JMM twice so i don't really know what to say on that matter.
And Oscar Larios moved up two weightclasses to fight Manny Pacquiao, and was coming off a loss to Israel Vasquez. Other than those obvious names he had some decent wins over Jorge Eliecer Julio, Jorge Solis, ETC.
But again i do think his resume is somewhat overrated, and i still think fighters like Pernell Whitaker are greater. But i suppose you can look at anyone's resume and pick it apart, but thats just how i see it.
People also use Manny Pacquiao's weight, too much to try and make him greater. Im not doubting that it isn't a great achievement, too move up the weightclasses like he has.
But people forget he was teenager fighting at those lower weight classes, and in 13 odd years or so. Its pretty normal he put on 20+ pounds healthily, and he is probably at his peak weight now near enough.
Lastly i don't hate Manny Pacquiao i respect him alot, and if he beats Miguel Cotto he's up there. I just think people at times make him out to be a god which he isn't, but theres also the flipside that the haters aren't fair on him either, because he is a great fighter.
A very shot Erik Morales doesn't look as good as he did over the first half of the fight, nobody's gonna argue that was a prime Morales but it obviously was a pretty good fighter. That Morales had as much success over 6 rounds as a prime JMM and much more than a prime MAB ever came close to.
And pfft if I get flamed about a "prime" MAB comment, he looked awesome coming into that fight and looked very good in fights after that. If he wasn't in his peak physical prime he was close and he was a smarter fighter than he was when he was younger.
Erik Morales was garbage in the Zahir Raheem fight, he lost pretty much every round. And really and truthfully shouldn't have fought Manny Pacquiao.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
I agree he had success against Manny Pacquiao, in the rematch. But he wasn't IMO anywhere as good as in the 1st meeting. And he for certain had lost quite a bit and the wars had caught up to him. and the embarrassing loss, to Zahir Raheem finished him off IMO.
As for MAB i agree with you, i also said i fully give Manny Pacquiao. Credit for the win but people also say, that he was having problems outside the ring. And that a shot version of MAB done better against a better version of Manny Pacquiao. Which proves he did indeed was have legit problems outside the ring in there 1st meeting.
Im not saying i agree with that, IMO he beat a man infront of him. Who was P4P number 3 who was coming off his best performances, and whether or not MAB was having some troubles. Outside the ring thats not Manny Pacquiao's fault, he did his job and beat the man infront of him. No one expected Manny Pacquiao to win, so its still a great win. And i just think Manny Pacquiao had MAB's number.
Whatever his legacy would be it will always be tarnished by his perpertual ducking of Mighty Mike. I've given breakdowns of what he has impressed me with and what has been less than impressive. Regardless of my personal opinion there is no doubt that he has sparked the interest of boxing in the minds of another generation. He is always in exciting fights and it's hard to think of very many fighters that have accomplished what he has. He has a resume that is absolutely phenomenal and history will overall disregard the prime/sub-prime argument.
As someone said, top 50 is an conservative estimate. Pac's legacy was mainly built when he fought the big 3 (MAB, EM, JMM) at 126 to 130. What happens right now, if he wins only adds to his legacy, while if he loses won't tarnish it one bit because he is way above his best fighting weight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Better then Zelenoff....:rolleyes:...I mean c'mon now!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzsPPDcwkPo He murders sparring partners...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaFjP...eature=related He has put PIMPS everywhere on warning...
And if you listen carefully he does it all with a trainer that is impossible to understand!!!!:hypnotized:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEDqOQB3SwA&feature=fvsr Zelenoff is a living legend
For me he's is the Greatest I've seen. I started Wacthing Boxing in the 70s with Ali, Duran & SRL. I think He surpassed them all already.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacdbest2For me he's is the Greatest I've seen. I started Wacthing Boxing in the 70s with Ali, Duran & SRL. I think He surpassed them all already.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Let the nuthuggers and haters now battle.
I disagree that the Barrera, Morales and Marquez fights are what will determine the bulk of his legacy. These fights as impressive as they were happened when he wasn't the face of the sport as he is today. I think what will define his legacy in most is his current reign as P4P king. Which so far has been nearly flawless but I believe a lot of his and Mayweather's legacy depend on when they face each other & what happens.