Re: So...styles make fights.
I think the most common use can be seen when people try to use "boxing math" (i.e. Fighter A beat Fighter B, Fighter B beat Fighter C, so Fighter A would beat Fighter C).
Look at 70's HW boxing. Ken Norton gave hell to some of the slickest boxers of all time (Ali and Holmes), but he got easily crushed by the big bangers he fought (Shavers, Foreman). Same with Frazier (gave Ali fits 3 times, got totally destroyed by Foreman twice). Norton had a style that made him poison for guys like Ali, but he didn't have the style to deal with the power of Foreman. Different fighters, different challenges.
Styles make fights. A PBF vs Canelo fight would look different than a PBF vs Trout fight.
My favorite style is that of the slick defensive counter puncher (like PBF or James Toney). The hit-and-not-get-hit guys have the best style.
Re: So...styles make fights.
You can label most fighters as having one of three or four styles. Out fighters, or "pure boxers" are guys who like to keep distance, work behind the jab and utilize better footwork and timing etc, think Ali or Wlad, Sergio Martinez etc. The problem with these guys is often they cant do anything besides clinch in close. Sluggers or punchers, would be someone like George Foreman or Julian Jackson, who lack fast feet or reflexes but are very heavy handed and look for the big shot. Pressure fighters are guys who look to get inside and stay there, smothering their opponent and winning via a high punch output and great conditioning as opposed to having great speed or power.
Out of these three styles there is sort of rock papers scissors scenario thats used often; A boxer beats a slugger, slugger beats a pressure fighter, and a pressure fighter will beat the boxer. Obviously this is only assuming that the men are closely matched physically and don't generally have another dimension to their game.
I'd say counter punchers(my favourite) belong in their own group, James Toney or Marquez for instance are perfect examples. I think Toney is the best natural counter puncher I've ever seen. They don't rely on the jab to win fights, don't generally come forward or set the pace and don't look to get into a full on brawl loading up on big shots etc. Guys like Mayweather or Whittaker, were brilliant counter punchers but could also lead and dictate fights with their own output unlike the previous two guys I listed.
Re: So...styles make fights.
It can be interpreted as a reference to the complexity of the sweet science. Fighters don't only exist in a simplistic hierarchical structure (as we're lead to believe by rankings). For example: Duran beat Leonard, Leonard beat Hagler, Hagler beat Duran. There is no "best" fighter of the three, their different styles of boxing achieve varying degrees of success, dependent on the style they're matched against. This is why, pre-fight, boxers spar against styles that are similar to their upcoming professional opponent. Not much use in sparring an infighting, southpaw brawler in preparation for a bout with an rangey, orthodox pure boxer.
Re: So...styles make fights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
You can label most fighters as having one of three or four styles. Out fighters, or "pure boxers" are guys who like to keep distance, work behind the jab and utilize better footwork and timing etc, think Ali or Wlad, Sergio Martinez etc. The problem with these guys is often they cant do anything besides clinch in close. Sluggers or punchers, would be someone like George Foreman or Julian Jackson, who lack fast feet or reflexes but are very heavy handed and look for the big shot. Pressure fighters are guys who look to get inside and stay there, smothering their opponent and winning via a high punch output and great conditioning as opposed to having great speed or power.
Out of these three styles there is sort of rock papers scissors scenario thats used often; A boxer beats a slugger, slugger beats a pressure fighter, and a pressure fighter will beat the boxer. Obviously this is only assuming that the men are closely matched physically and don't generally have another dimension to their game.
I'd say counter punchers(my favourite) belong in their own group, James Toney or Marquez for instance are perfect examples. I think Toney is the best natural counter puncher I've ever seen. They don't rely on the jab to win fights, don't generally come forward or set the pace and don't look to get into a full on brawl loading up on big shots etc. Guys like Mayweather or Whittaker, were brilliant counter punchers but could also lead and dictate fights with their own output unlike the previous two guys I listed.
then you have your boxer punchers which are basically a blend of a counter puncher and slugger, they have good movement good timing and all around balanced, IMO Sergio falls more into this category than as a pure boxer, as would Cotto, Marquez, Barrera, etc.
Re: So...styles make fights.
The saying "styles make fights" is very self-serving. You use it if a fight you promote stinks and you are trying to explain why, or it comes out if a fight that was supposed to suck heats up.
All, every single one, good fighters are counter-punchers. You cannot be good unless you counterpunch well. Some guys wait and counter, other guys push to draw leads they can counter off. Counterpunching is the trick when it comes to boxing.
My favorite styles...Olivares against Lionel Rose...Most any fight with Buddy McGirt, Julio Cesar Chavez, Mike McCallum, Ricardo Lopez, or James toney. I like guys that counter well, punch good, and make a fight.
Re: So...styles make fights.
It's basic theory but not practice. Outside fighter vs inside fighter? Depends on if the out side fighter stops inside getting close and the inside fighter has to get close.
Counter puncher needs to counter of course but then again a hard hitter needs to hit and not be countered.
But it's all theory not cast iron tactics. Anything can happen.
My fav fighter style is either inside pressure like Sebastian Lujan or Ricky Hatton.
I also like (not a style but) heavyweights that have chins and walk forward, Shannon Briggs for example.
Re: So...styles make fights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
The saying "styles make fights" is very self-serving. You use it if a fight you promote stinks and you are trying to explain why, or it comes out if a fight that was supposed to suck heats up.
All, every single one, good fighters are counter-punchers. You cannot be good unless you counterpunch well. Some guys wait and counter, other guys push to draw leads they can counter off. Counterpunching is the trick when it comes to boxing.
My favorite styles...Olivares against Lionel Rose...Most any fight with Buddy McGirt, Julio Cesar Chavez, Mike McCallum, Ricardo Lopez, or James toney. I like guys that counter well, punch good, and make a fight.
Aren't you sort of saying that boxing in its essence is brain over brawn? Counter punchers look/think about openings, and jump in when they see an opportunity. Roberto Duran wasn't a counter-puncher, but he was a thinker, and he was one of the best ever.
Re: So...styles make fights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
The saying "styles make fights" is very self-serving. You use it if a fight you promote stinks and you are trying to explain why, or it comes out if a fight that was supposed to suck heats up.
All, every single one, good fighters are counter-punchers. You cannot be good unless you counterpunch well. Some guys wait and counter, other guys push to draw leads they can counter off. Counterpunching is the trick when it comes to boxing.
My favorite styles...Olivares against Lionel Rose...Most any fight with Buddy McGirt, Julio Cesar Chavez, Mike McCallum, Ricardo Lopez, or James toney. I like guys that counter well, punch good, and make a fight.
Superb post. Mike was a master with the feint also which is a skill that has eroded over the years. I have been thinking about this question since the author posted it and its tougher then it appears. I could watch defensive wizards like Locche, Pep and Whitaker all day along with the pure counter punchers but if I had a gun to my head or was forced to take one style to watch on a deserted island it would be boxer punchers like Mikey Garcia, Robinson, Broner, Hearns, Louis, Lewis, Arguello, Zale etc etc.
Re: So...styles make fights.
Thank you all for your posts. Your explanations help me understand the concepts from different perspectives, and your list of fighters help me study the meanings more in dept. It's the reason why I like two part questions so much. ;D
Re: So...styles make fights.
I like all styles of boxing from Tyson to Roy Jones and everyone in between. If they are quality fighters who know when to throw the right punch at the right time in the right area they are my favourites.
Mike McCallum jab and body shots
Terry Norris rapid punch combination and balance
Chavez pressure and body shots
Holyfield athleticism
Tyson punching power
Herol Grahams defensive skills
But they have to be matched to someone that will be equally as exciting to make a good fight.
Re: So...styles make fights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
The saying "styles make fights" is very self-serving. You use it if a fight you promote stinks and you are trying to explain why, or it comes out if a fight that was supposed to suck heats up.
All, every single one, good fighters are counter-punchers. You cannot be good unless you counterpunch well. Some guys wait and counter, other guys push to draw leads they can counter off. Counterpunching is the trick when it comes to boxing.
My favorite styles...Olivares against Lionel Rose...Most any fight with Buddy McGirt, Julio Cesar Chavez, Mike McCallum, Ricardo Lopez, or James toney. I like guys that counter well, punch good, and make a fight.
I couldn't disagree more. The saying references the differences between fighters, and although there are certain tools that transcend style (be it a stiff jab, a counter-punch or head movement) different fighters use these tools in different ways.
Yes, counter-punching is a universal strategy that is always utilized in some way, but to say that all good boxers employ the counter-punch in the same way is to lump together a number of very different styles. Both James Toney and Bernard Hopkins were exciting fighters in their prime, but I would say that Toney's style was based on the counter-punch, whereas it was a specialty within Hopkins' wide arsenal (not to say he didn't use it or it was unimportant).
The aforementioned comparative example (counter-punching), could just as easily be Cotto's left hook or Ray Leonard's ring movement. The fact is that boxers, while all similar in some respects (due to a form of athletics honed for thousands of years), are also very different. These differences often dictate how a fight will play out. I believe that to be the essence of the statement.
Re: So...styles make fights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheBranMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
The saying "styles make fights" is very self-serving. You use it if a fight you promote stinks and you are trying to explain why, or it comes out if a fight that was supposed to suck heats up.
All, every single one, good fighters are counter-punchers. You cannot be good unless you counterpunch well. Some guys wait and counter, other guys push to draw leads they can counter off. Counterpunching is the trick when it comes to boxing.
My favorite styles...Olivares against Lionel Rose...Most any fight with Buddy McGirt, Julio Cesar Chavez, Mike McCallum, Ricardo Lopez, or James toney. I like guys that counter well, punch good, and make a fight.
I couldn't disagree more. The saying references the
differences between fighters, and although there are certain tools that transcend style (be it a stiff jab, a counter-punch or head movement)
different fighters use these tools in
different ways.
Yes,
counter-punching is a universal strategy that is always utilized in some way, but to say that
all good boxers employ the counter-punch in the
same way is to lump together a number of very
different styles. Both James Toney and Bernard Hopkins were exciting fighters in their prime, but I would say that Toney's style was based on the
counter-punch, whereas it was a specialty within Hopkins' wide arsenal (not to say he didn't use it or it was unimportant).
The aforementioned comparative example (counter-punching), could just as easily be Cotto's left hook or Ray Leonard's ring movement. The fact is that boxers, while all similar in some respects (due to a form of athletics honed for thousands of years), are also very
different. These
differences often dictate how a fight will play out. I believe that to be the essence of the statement.
But he's not dismissing the phrase he's essentially saying its over used. I think he's right but I also agree with you fundamentally. Clearly there have been and will be terrible style match ups.
