Muhammad Ali and the wins that should never have been.

There has been a lot of Ali talk this last week or so, now I'm not a huge fan of his but I don't really dislike him either.

I decided to keep this theme going by pointing out some stuff that you already know or don't and can debate with me.

1. George Foreman had idiots in his corner!
I believe that all they had to do was tell him to slow the fuck DOWN. If he just relaxed a bit he could have cake walked to the decision. At least that is my view.
Now Ali was hitting him and started the first 2 rounds with right hand leads but his punch output rapidly decreased.

Agree?

2. Joe Fraizer won the Thrilla in Manilla!
Ali walked to his corner and asked Dundee to cut his gloves off while Fraizer protested with his trainer to let him continue fighting.
The reason Ali won? Either Futch (Frazier trainer) was louder than Dundee to alert the ref or the ref just happened to be closer to Futch, I don't recall Padillas (the ref) position at the time.

Agree?

Can’t agree with either take. Foreman never bothered with boxing skill until after his hiatus post Young so when he entered the Ali fight the heavy favourite it was based on all the clubbing’s he doled out prior to that. He would simply trap and over power his opponents. Guys like Frazier and Norton volunteered to fight Foremans fight and we all know what happened. Ali used the ring, dazzled him with speed and frustrated the hell out of him by refusing to stand still. Foremans punches looked like they were in slow motion and were at many times open handed thrown from the parking lot. Masterful performance by Ali who also took Foremans head out of the fight before the bell rang to start the contest.

The Thrilla in Manilla is a very fan friendly fight and I can’t even guess how many times I have watched it over the years but it wasn’t really that close. The cards were and are indicative of the fight I watched and I was a huge Frazier fan. Prior to the stoppage the scores were 166-160,166-162,167-162.

If people want to watch a fight that Ali lost but won then they need to watch the Jimmy Young fight. Time and time again I can’t give Ali more then three rounds. The Doug Jones fight is another close one regardless of LoScalzo’s lopsided card.

I can't agree with either. I don't like talking about would have's, could have's and should have's. Boxing is all about results. There's no do-overs. Two guys go into the ring, whoever is the better man that night wins (barring a BS decision).

Foreman blew his load and got KO'd. Frazier and Ali played chicken and Frazier's corner pulled up first, even if it was just a matter of seconds in difference. That's boxing, they came up short. Every top fighter who's ever lost has a "should have".

I think the wins that should be focused on are the Ken Norton robberies (Norton had Ali's number) and cutting of the glove/smelling salts used to revive him in the Cooper fight.

I agree with you both, this isn't a "they should have" it's more of a "in hindsight".

I mean I do believe if foreman just took a few steps back, he would of had Ali.

Same with the Fraizer one, it annoys me that they called it at the 14th, I mean he was blind how long? Just a nod from Futch and Frazier won it.

But again I agree with you both.

I agree I'd take Foreman in a rematch immediately after. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

In his book, he claimed he was poisoned and that Ali's people had the ropes loosened to Ali could lay on them. Can't blame him for being full of excuses, it must have really hurt is pride to get played like a fool.

And to me, Frazier going that hard against Ali blind in one eye and with his blood pressure issues, that's a victory in itself.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

I agree I'd take Foreman in a rematch immediately after. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

In his book, he claimed he was poisoned and that Ali's people had the ropes loosened to Ali could lay on them. Can't blame him for being full of excuses, it must have really hurt is pride to get played like a fool.

And to me, Frazier going that hard against Ali blind in one eye and with his blood pressure issues, that's a victory in itself.

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Yeah totally, but imagine how he felt finding out that Ali was gonna call it a day, where wanted to go on. That musta been a big issue as to why he resented him.

Big George was made to look foolish even in the early rounds before the rope a dope began, Ali continually stuck it to him and big George just relied totally on his brute strength to get him through and by round 8 he was spent, Ali was well ahead at the time of the KO. I don't think George would've beaten him in a rematch either, i believe that sometimes fighters meet their nemesis and big George was a perfect match for Ali.

The Thriller In Manila was exhausting for both fighters and the only way i can believe Ali would want to quit was of exhaustion, it was very hot there that day. Frazier was a ghastly mess and his face was all busted up. It was a good call to stop it. Both men should've retired after this fight.

Ali's questionable wins remain to this day the Norton fights!

Big George did say that if he fought the fight again he would have simply used his jab more and paced himself better with the experience he gained after. At the time I think Ali would have won the rematch too.

Fraiser's corner did the right thing, no way was Angelo going to give the fight up with 1 round to go. Remember Ali wanted to retire after the Liston fight because they put something in his eye and Angelo did not let him.

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Big George was made to look foolish even in the early rounds before the rope a dope began, Ali continually stuck it to him and big George just relied totally on his brute strength to get him through and by round 8 he was spent, Ali was well ahead at the time of the KO. I don't think George would've beaten him in a rematch either, i believe that sometimes fighters meet their nemesis and big George was a perfect match for Ali.

The Thriller In Manila was exhausting for both fighters and the only way i can believe Ali would want to quit was of exhaustion, it was very hot there that day. Frazier was a ghastly mess and his face was all busted up. It was a good call to stop it. Both men should've retired after this fight.

Ali's questionable wins remain to this day the Norton fights!

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I don't care what anyone says but there's no way Ali won there 3rd fight, just look at both fighters after the fight. Norton is yelling at him like he's the winner, while Ali looks like a beaten fighter laying over in the corner.

Muhammad Ali has had a few questionable decisions.

Doug Jones
Earnie Shavers
Jimmy Young
Ken Norton

But to be fair to Ali 3 of those decision's were past his prime, and he was especially way over weight vs Jimmy Young. But then again thats no excuse if you lose a fight then you lose a fight, thats your problem you shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt because you didn't train properly.

But Muhammad Ali didn't duck anyone and when your facing top opposition all the time, your bound to have a few close decision's here and there.

ali shoulda quitr after the thrilla in manila

Does anybody remember his fight with Ron Lyle? Stopped in the 11th, I think, and I have always thought it was a bad stop, but then I haven't seen it since it happened. Anybody remeber?

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Does anybody remember his fight with Ron Lyle? Stopped in the 11th, I think, and I have always thought it was a bad stop, but then I haven't seen it since it happened. Anybody remeber?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jKCxMJdc-Q

Lyle gets hit and does not throw another punch back for the final 42 seconds and was getting pummeled.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Big George was made to look foolish even in the early rounds before the rope a dope began, Ali continually stuck it to him and big George just relied totally on his brute strength to get him through and by round 8 he was spent, Ali was well ahead at the time of the KO. I don't think George would've beaten him in a rematch either, i believe that sometimes fighters meet their nemesis and big George was a perfect match for Ali.

The Thriller In Manila was exhausting for both fighters and the only way i can believe Ali would want to quit was of exhaustion, it was very hot there that day. Frazier was a ghastly mess and his face was all busted up. It was a good call to stop it. Both men should've retired after this fight.

Ali's questionable wins remain to this day the Norton fights!

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I don't care what anyone says but there's no way Ali won there 3rd fight, just look at both fighters after the fight. Norton is yelling at him like he's the winner, while Ali looks like a beaten fighter laying over in the corner.

Muhammad Ali has had a few questionable decisions.

Doug Jones
Earnie Shavers
Jimmy Young
Ken Norton

But to be fair to Ali 3 of those decision's were past his prime, and he was especially way over weight vs Jimmy Young. But then again thats no excuse if you lose a fight then you lose a fight, thats your problem you shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt because you didn't train properly.

But Muhammad Ali didn't duck anyone and when your facing top opposition all the time, your bound to have a few close decision's here and there.

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The scoring at the end of the 14th round was: referee: Carlos Padilla 66-60, judge: Larry Nadayag 66-62, judge: Alfredo Quiazon 67-62.

I reckon they were on the mark. As for the fight itself, it was brutal, a war. But Ali was safely ahead on all three scorecards and really hammering Joe in the 13th and 14th rounds. So even if Ali did say “take the gloves off” at the end of the 14th, I don’t think he ever would have quit, and the record shows his trainer Angelo Dundee would never have let him quit. Of course Ali won the 3rd fight Ali, he won because Smokin' Joe didn’t come out for the last round, which I think was a humane move by his trainer, Eddie Futch. Of course, Frazier wouldn’t quit under any circumstances short of death. But he literally couldn’t see, which is a disadvantage when people are trying to knock your head off. Sadly this fight affected both men for the rest of their lives.

If you want to narrow it down to one fight then show me a round by round Jimmy Young card. I would like to know how any serious fight fan could award that to Ali. Break it down for me round by round.

Yeah the Young fight should of never been a victory