Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
Am I right in understanding that clean punching/, effective aggression, defence & ring generalship are NOT all equal scoring criteria? That clean punching is the most important aspect of scoring a bout and that ring generalship is last, behind defence?
Or am I wrong?
Who actually set the criteria, I mean initially?
I found the Boxing Rules of Athletic Commission of the State of New York but this confuses me. Does the rules differ from state to state?
Quote:
5. It is advisable to deduct points when a contestant persistently delays the action of a contest by clinching and lack of aggressiveness
.
I never knew this?
I'm rambling because I am genuinely confused about ring generalship. There seems to be no absolute rule on what is to be considered as more appropriate or more competent ring generalship so it is left up to the judge to decide and therefore the fighter to influence the judges.
So I'm wondering is ring generalship as much about the appearance of being in control as much as it is about actually being in control.
Is 'smoke and mirrors' something that judges take into account? Should they?
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
The way I view ring generalship is: the fighter who is employing their strategy most effectively.
Which means it's different for different fighters. For pressure fighters ring generalship means stalking your opponent, backing them down, making them avoid you at all costs. For a counter puncher it would be to invite in attacks from your opponent and counter effectively.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
well hell wlad should have lost dozens of points based on that rule above.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
I would say similar, the fighter is controlling the fight the way they want to.it is an unambiguous term but generally ascribed to older fighters like B Hop.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
Effective punching is king. If a guy is landing clean and those shots are having a visible effect on his opponent, who cares who is moving better or dictating where the fight is taking place?
Everything in boxing either helps you land effective punches, or helps you avoid effective punches from your opponent. What else really matters?
Ring generalship is something that might come into play to help decide a razor close "feeling out" round where nothing really happened.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
Am I right in understanding that clean punching/, effective aggression, defence & ring generalship are
NOT all equal scoring criteria? That clean punching is the most important aspect of scoring a bout and that ring generalship is last, behind defence?
Or am I wrong?
Who actually set the criteria, I mean initially?
I found the
Boxing Rules of Athletic Commission of the State of New York but this confuses me. Does the rules differ from state to state?
Quote:
5. It is advisable to deduct points when a contestant persistently delays the action of a contest by clinching and lack of aggressiveness
.
I never knew this?
I'm rambling because I am genuinely confused about ring generalship. There seems to be no absolute rule on what is to be considered as
more appropriate or
more competent ring generalship so it is left up to the judge to decide and therefore the fighter to
influence the judges.
So I'm wondering is ring generalship as much about the
appearance of being in control as much as it is about actually being in control.
Is 'smoke and mirrors' something that judges take into account? Should they?
That is a pretty deep inquiry you have there. Based on the difference between score cards more often then not these days it would appear that "subjective" wins the day but we all know that something else has to be at play in many cases.
There is a certain amount of redundancy in the 10 point must system where I suppose lends itself to subjectivity or the ability to claim simply that you saw it differently. However when people start to call the effective use of the ring and working off the back foot as running, something is clearly lost in translation.
Ring generalship can include effective aggression, defense and clean accurate punching as part of its definition. The ring is there for a reason and its size a major contention in pretty much every major fight. Unfortunately today we are in the phone-booth era driven by highlight reels. People in large measure dont want to watch a boxing match and those that make it to 12 are deemed a failure. Its a knockout or bust time. That leaves little room for the subtleties of the sweet science to even get noticed.
Interesting topic.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
well hell wlad should have lost dozens of points based on that rule above.
So who is actually inforcing the rules? Are these rules universal? Do they not apply in Zaire or Germany???
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
That is a pretty deep inquiry you have there. Based on the difference between score cards more often then not these days it would appear that "subjective" wins the day but we all know that something else has to be at play in many cases.
Yeah we have to consider corruption or some other outside inflence as far as 'bad' decisions go but then I guess there is this other side of the coin that I wanted to get in to with casual and even hardcore fans where there are massive differences of opinion over close fights, robberies and bad decisions. For examle (not neccessarily here but) Canelo fights seem to devide a lot of opion. As do Danny Garcia fights.
It seems a guy who has seeminlgly heavy feet and dosent look good moving around the ring and is being made to 'look bad' although when you look at the shots (and crucially the type of shots) actaully being landed (per round/ per fight, whatever) then you have a fight that is not as it 'looks'.
I think in these intances, ring generalship is misleading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
There is a certain amount of redundancy in the 10 point must system where I suppose lends itself to subjectivity or the ability to claim simply that you saw it differently.
I was going to bring this up as well.
I always assumed that the good old Marquess of Queensbury created a one-stop-shop for the rules of boxing. But thw 10-point must is nothing to do with him. Who created the 10-point must?
Your right, it is a poor system if the looser of the round only gets deducted 1 point, unless they are knocked down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
However when people start to call the effective use of the ring and working off the back foot as running, something is clearly lost in translation.
Rule no.5 leaves me a little stunned, frankly. So I can't really comment on 'lost in translation', untill there is some clarifciation on the enforcement or at least considerationof this rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Ring generalship can include effective aggression, defense and clean accurate punching as part of its definition. The ring is there for a reason and its size a major contention in pretty much every major fight. Unfortunately today we are in the phone-booth era driven by highlight reels. People in large measure dont want to watch a boxing match and those that make it to 12 are deemed a failure. Its a knockout or bust time. That leaves little room for the subtleties of the sweet science to even get noticed.
To be honest, I can undertsand this. Boxing is ultimately an entertainment business and thrives off thrills and spills. Shame though.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
I have about the same definition as Lyle, just think of it as the guy you would have rather been in a round. It's subjective party because it's so tied in with all the other criteria to me, maybe used to reward the guy who looks a little more comfortable, everything else being even.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
Never really thought of it bud, seems a bit like the hard to pin down and subjective definition of "p4p". Simply put I think its doing what you want when you want to do it in the ring. Be that with effective aggression and pressure or mobility and walking a guy into 1001 counter punches. Movement is key in both, there is nothing better than watching a guy cut down the ring on a boxer and position him into another combo...Chavez sr would literally 'cup' or arm bump guys into ripping body shots when they were all out of ring. Or a defensive minded boxer setting traps, using a guys pressure against him spinning out and bouncing a combo off his noggin. Come to think of it I think positioning has a lot to do with generalship. If your feet aren't under you and ready for the next step, your punches lose steam and your getting hit in return.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
It seems a guy who has seeminlgly heavy feet and dosent look good moving around the ring and is being made to 'look bad' although when you look at the shots (and crucially the type of shots) actaully being landed (per round/ per fight, whatever) then you have a fight that is not as it 'looks'.
I think in these intances, ring generalship is misleading.
Looking slick while being punched about the face and not answering back is not supposed to get you points or win rounds that one lost. Same with round stealing in the last 15 seconds. Somehow, the 2:45 of dominance by the other guy is functionally deleted? Ali and Leonard were masters at pulling that blind over the festivities.
Its at times like that when it looks like there is no criteria and they ought to discontinue using a "must system" that they may or may not use.
A broader question is why has the system not evolved? What are they still doing at ringside with all those blind spots and distractions? I mean in some cases you are left wondering if the person even watched the round or was to busy analyzing the celebrities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
I was going to bring this up as well.
I always assumed that the good old Marquess of Queensbury created a one-stop-shop for the rules of boxing. But thw 10-point must is nothing to do with him. Who created the 10-point must?
Your right, it is a poor system if the looser of the round only gets deducted 1 point, unless they are knocked down.
The object of the game afterall is to out score your opponent. That's where the 10 point must originates. Landing more scoring blows then the other guy.
I think it originated in London and was an add on to the do's and dont's. Its always been based on the judges knowing what a scoring blow is. Lets not forget that thee were no judges much of the time and the ref called the fight at its origin. I find it interesting that its still practiced in Britain and have mixed feelings about it.
I also find the reluctance to call an even round even kind of odd. There is nothing in the rules about an obligation to pick a winner. I've called an awful lot of first rounds even over the years. Same with a late kd. If person A dominated 2 minutes and 50 seconds of a round and gets dropped that should not get the round for person B all the time. That could easily be justified an even round.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
Rule no.5 leaves me a little stunned, frankly. So I can't really comment on 'lost in translation', untill there is some clarifciation on the enforcement or at least considerationof this rule.
Haglers ability to take the ring away from his opponent and cut it off is no less/more dominant then Floyd's use of the entire ring. They should both be given equal consideration with the other elements
listed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
To be honest, I can undertsand this. Boxing is ultimately an entertainment business and thrives off thrills and spills. Shame though.
Its dummied down the sport and shares the blame in many ways for the erosion of judging.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I have about the same definition as Lyle, just think of it as the guy you would have rather been in a round. It's subjective party because it's so tied in with all the other criteria to me, maybe used to reward the guy who looks a little more comfortable, everything else being even.
I tend to agree with that statement. The concern I have with Lyle's perspective is that sometimes guys change their style up to be most effective with their specific opponent. For example, puncher might turn boxer because it'll increase his chances to win against another puncher, or a stalking pressure fighter might employ counter punching if he's facing another pressure fighter. At bottom, it is who controlled the flow in the way they wanted to. I agree it is subjective.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
Ring Generalship:
To exhibit control by means of purposefully and effectively dictating or manipulating either:
• The spatial element of the contest; that being the combative space, distance and movement of (or between fighter and) the opponent.
And/ or
• The temporal element of the contest; that being the initiation, duration and frequency of all combative manoeuvres taken by either fighter.
Re: Ring generalship: A purely subjective scoring criteria?
For now - that's my truest crack at it :-\
