Ali, the dark side of his skill

Hello all, this will be sure to get me many of sad clicks but I don't give a fuck.

Ali had skill HOWEVER no one every likes to admit he used questionable tactics at times...most of the time actually.
Here is a list of his favorite illegal boxing moves: backhanding the jab, holding and hitting, and leaving his jab extended for defensive purposes.

Those are illegal, he should have been penalized a whole lot more than he was...in fact I don't EVER remember him being penalized, I remember him being warned 50-60 times about holding and hitting though.

And now these fighters get picked on for their tactics that are similar to Ali's: Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Wladimir Klitschko, Ricky Hatton, John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Bernard Hopkins, Jermain Taylor, and the list goes on and on.

I just want to bring Ali down from the pedestal everyone has him on...he was skilled but he did bend and break rules but don't ever fucking tell me "___ is not Ali" like it's OK for Ali to do those things just because he is Ali and those guys won't ever be him.

What's your problem with Ali? How comes you did not mention him being Muslim this time? What is the purpose of this thread? Why do you have have to be such an uptight ass all the time?

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Originally Posted by The Game

What's your problem with Ali? How comes you did not mention him being Muslim this time? What is the purpose of this thread? Why do you have have to be such an uptight ass all the time?

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I don't have a problem with Ali. I have a problem with people who blindly follow the guy and thought he did no wrong at all.

History has been VERY kind to Ali, maybe too kind to Ali. You seen the movie? Did he call Frazier an Uncle Tom in the movie? Nah, that wouldn't be good for the movie.

Yes Ali had incredible skill but when it comes to people saying "He could do that he's Ali" it's wrong, you know? It's preferential treatment in a FIGHT and if fights are fair then those tactics either fly or they don't....no one got the benefit of the doubt more than Ali.

I still have Ali on my all-time greats list, I only oppose his questionable tactics and the way he treated the people who were supposed to be his brothers during the civil rights movement is that wrong?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I just want to bring Ali down from the pedestal everyone has him on...he was skilled but he did bend and break rules but don't ever F****** tell me "___ is not Ali" like it's OK for Ali to do those things just because he is Ali and those guys won't ever be him.

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:dummespost:What is Ali the fucking flavour of the month?? Your an idiot, or just didn't think this out at all and have some extreme personal bias against Ali. In fact name one slick or skilled boxer/technician that you are a fan of. You only like sluggers from what I can tell. But anyways you can't bring Ali down from anything because everyone considers him the greatest and that is everyone, not even just boxing fans.. You probably think ur boy Wlad could beat ALi, or maybe Joe Mesi a few years ago.

You faggots are missing the point!

Ali is held on another level than everyone else and it's NOT ABOUT SKILL.

People rag on other fighters using the SAME things Ali used and every response to that is "____ is not Ali".

Ali had great skill I've said it before, I mean I never cared about him as a person but I respect his skill but if you don't think he BENT the rules like nobodies business you are mistaken.

This is not an "I hate Ali' thread it's a "Let's be realistic about Ali" thread.

I think all boxers push the limits of the rules in the ring, its just never worded as cheating. Its called being "cagey" and using veteran savy or something. I can think of several fighters that will do alot of the things you accused Ali of doing. If the ref is going to let you get away with it why not...if you aint cheating you aint trying and if you get caught then you werent trying hard enough.

HEY NEWSFLASH LYLE:Noone said Ali was the greatest humanitarian of all time, and all those negative comments you bring up were said on television for the world to hear, everyone knows he was no saint.. This is a boxing forum as well....You are trying to convince us to think less of Ali because he wasn't that nice to his opponents or didn't join the military... Weird. THe point is you can't say one thing about his boxing ability because you know what he did and how dominant he was in the ring.. In all honesty, it seems like you are basing this on either race, religion, or his military dodging.. THat's what Id bet. Which is it. Was your daddy a soldier? ::**

Examples

People get on Lewis for holding and hitting. "Ali did the same thing"....."Well, Lewis isn't Ali"

Wlad held too much...."Ali held for tactical purposes"...."Wlad isn't Ali"

Taylor backhands the jab ...."Ali backhanded the jab"...."Taylor isn't Ali"

THAT is what I'm talking about....how does being Ali make someone able to do those things without ridicule?

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Originally Posted by p4pking

HEY NEWSFLASH LYLE:Noone said Ali was the greatest humanitarian of all time, and all those negative comments you bring up were said on television for the world to hear, everyone knows he was no saint.. This is a boxing forum as well....You are trying to convince us to think less of Ali because he wasn't that nice to his opponents or didn't join the military... Weird. THe point is you can't say one thing about his boxing ability because you know what he did and how dominant he was in the ring.. In all honesty, it seems like you are basing this on either race, religion, or his military dodging.. THat's what Id bet. Which is it. Was your daddy a soldier?  ::**

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I'm not trying to convince you that Ali was this or that for his views on Vietnam...I don't care about that in THIS thread!

My points are Ali is never looked down on for using questionable tactics during his fights and everyone else is ripped apart for it...it's ridiculous

I'm just saying paint Ali with the same brush that you have the other guys painted with....even if they aren't the same skill level which they probably won't be.

Be real about what Ali did in the ring...don't look past the questionable stuff and let it slide just because he's Ali

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Hello all, this will be sure to get me many of sad clicks but I don't give a F***.

Ali had skill HOWEVER no one every likes to admit he used questionable tactics at times...most of the time actually.
Here is a list of his favorite illegal boxing moves: backhanding the jab, holding and hitting, and leaving his jab extended for defensive purposes.

Those are illegal, he should have been penalized a whole lot more than he was...in fact I don't EVER remember him being penalized, I remember him being warned 50-60 times about holding and hitting though.

And now these fighters get picked on for their tactics that are similar to Ali's: Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Wladimir Klitschko, Ricky Hatton, John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Bernard Hopkins, Jermain Taylor, and the list goes on and on.

I just want to bring Ali down from the pedestal everyone has him on...he was skilled but he did bend and break rules but don't ever F****** tell me "___ is not Ali" like it's OK for Ali to do those things just because he is Ali and those guys won't ever be him.

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Even though I disagree with nearly everything here I won't sad click you. Of all the illegal tactics you mentioned, not one of them is significant in changing the tide of a fight, that's why they aren't enforced, like in every sport, there are rules that aren't enforced. Basketball, no one enforces players stepping over the line to get a rebound after a free-throw, because it is so insignificant, and it happens all the time. Furthermore you'll be hardpressed to find any of Ali's opponents who would actually say that any of what you mentioned really made a difference. It's not like leaving a jab extended is some inpenetrable forcefield that no one can get past. People don't have Ali on a pedestal because of what he did outside the ring, they have him as the greatest because they feel he was inside the ring.

man i've never really heard anyone make the comparisons of Ali and other fighters using dirty tactics like that. Every fighter hits during a clinch and at some point every fighter is usually accused of holding to much. If someone says "such and such isn't Ali" its probably not b/c they think they should have different rules apply its probably b/c that fighter isn't in the same league as Ali.

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Originally Posted by clean

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Hello all, this will be sure to get me many of sad clicks but I don't give a F***.

Ali had skill HOWEVER no one every likes to admit he used questionable tactics at times...most of the time actually.
Here is a list of his favorite illegal boxing moves: backhanding the jab, holding and hitting, and leaving his jab extended for defensive purposes.

Those are illegal, he should have been penalized a whole lot more than he was...in fact I don't EVER remember him being penalized, I remember him being warned 50-60 times about holding and hitting though.

And now these fighters get picked on for their tactics that are similar to Ali's: Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Wladimir Klitschko, Ricky Hatton, John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Bernard Hopkins, Jermain Taylor, and the list goes on and on.

I just want to bring Ali down from the pedestal everyone has him on...he was skilled but he did bend and break rules but don't ever F****** tell me "___ is not Ali" like it's OK for Ali to do those things just because he is Ali and those guys won't ever be him.

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Even though I disagree with nearly everything here I won't sad click you. Of all the illegal tactics you mentioned, not one of them is significant in changing the tide of a fight, that's why they aren't enforced, like in every sport, there are rules that aren't enforced. Basketball, no one enforces players stepping over the line to get a rebound after a free-throw, because it is so insignificant, and it happens all the time. Furthermore you'll be hardpressed to find any of Ali's opponents who would actually say that any of what you mentioned really made a difference. It's not like leaving a jab extended is some inpenetrable forcefield that no one can get past. People don't have Ali on a pedestal because of what he did outside the ring, they have him as the greatest because they feel he was inside the ring.

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Good post that mate ;)

So if Lewis doesn't Hold and Hit Grant then he still KO's him that fast? If Ali doesn't hang on to Joe Frazier and hit him he still wins?

I'm just saying other people that do it get a ton of shit for it but Ali is perfect. All I want people to do is realize Ali was a fighter, just like Liston, just like Tyson, just like Dempsey...and he fought like it. So you are able to respect Ali by copying his tactics since he was "THE GREATEST" for most people...but you should also be able to not be complained about if you use those same tactics...is that better?

The SKILL is not the question here...well legit skill...Ali was a great boxer (a bit boring later in his career) but he was REALLY good at using the aforementioned tactics without being penalized or frowned upon (by most) and I don't frown upon them I just want everyone to either be able to use them or NOT be able to use them.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

So if Lewis doesn't Hold and Hit Grant then he still KO's him that fast? If Ali doesn't hang on to Joe Frazier and hit him he still wins?

I'm just saying other people that do it get a ton of S*** for it but Ali is perfect. All I want people to do is realize Ali was a fighter, just like Liston, just like Tyson, just like Dempsey...and he fought like it. So you are able to respect Ali by copying his tactics since he was "THE GREATEST" for most people...but you should also be able to not be complained about if you use those same tactics...is that better?

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I've never complained about Lennox holding and hitting Grant, but if someone didn't have a problem with Ali doing something but had a problem with someone else doing the same thing then I agree, they would be a hippocrite. The thing is I honestly can't remember that many people making a big deal out of it.

CC Lyle for having the nads to post this thread. ( i have to wait a few hours it seems)

If you already haven't you will eventually find as I have, that people give passes to certain boxers, but others the like to examine under a magnifying glass and highlight the first possible flaw they see.

But it seems that if the boxer is flamboyant enough, and the media (in this case Howard Cossell) makes the fighter out to be the "peoples champ" then they are very forgiving.

Ali was very very gifted with speed. He was a great boxer but he did hold often and no one really called him on it. It often seems to be part of the bigger mans game plan in many cases.

But no doubt people are very forgiving of this guy.

THANK YOU...geez it took all that bashing but finally a person who can see someone else's point of view cc

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Hello all, this will be sure to get me many of sad clicks but I don't give a F***.

Ali had skill HOWEVER no one every likes to admit he used questionable tactics at times...most of the time actually.
Here is a list of his favorite illegal boxing moves: backhanding the jab, holding and hitting, and leaving his jab extended for defensive purposes.

Those are illegal, he should have been penalized a whole lot more than he was...in fact I don't EVER remember him being penalized, I remember him being warned 50-60 times about holding and hitting though.

And now these fighters get picked on for their tactics that are similar to Ali's: Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Wladimir Klitschko, Ricky Hatton, John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Bernard Hopkins, Jermain Taylor, and the list goes on and on.

I just want to bring Ali down from the pedestal everyone has him on...he was skilled but he did bend and break rules but don't ever F****** tell me "___ is not Ali" like it's OK for Ali to do those things just because he is Ali and those guys won't ever be him.

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ali is my favorite --but i would never sad click you just 4 making a point--
so :coolclick:

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Originally Posted by The Game

What's your problem with Ali? How comes you did not mention him being Muslim this time? What is the purpose of this thread? Why do you have have to be such an uptight a** all the time?

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Is this the Crying Game??

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I'm just saying paint Ali with the same brush that you have the other guys painted with....even if they aren't the same skill level which they probably won't be.

Be real about what Ali did in the ring...don't look past the questionable stuff and let it slide just because he's Ali

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If ali didnt hold so much, he would never have beat Frazier....So i totally agree with you, I do not like the way he held, he held TO MUCH...

I think Ali also held way too much, and I agree with every statement you made... People should read the book facing Ali I believe where they talk to everyone he faced... He was an asshole, racist to his own people(JOe Frazier, George Foreman) he had little regard for his wives which is important to me at least. I love ALi the boxer(sometimes), but he wasn't a fair fighter.

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Originally Posted by mucho testosterone

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Originally Posted by The Game

What's your problem with Ali? How comes you did not mention him being Muslim this time? What is the purpose of this thread? Why do you have have to be such an uptight a** all the time?

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Is this the Crying Game??

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That is soooooooooooo lame. :P

look at any sport 40 years ago and sportsman got away with alot of things they wouldnt get away with now

Well, you got a cool click from me for these remarks because I basically agree. Ali was 1 of the finest pure athletes ever to lace on a pair of gloves, who punched accurately, had incredible handspeed and footspeed and great coordination, but he was very far from being a complete fighter. On the contrary, Ali actually set back basic boxing technique by neglecting to learn the art of inside fighting. Ali hardly ever used body punches. Angelo Dundee said this very thing when he was interviewed years after Ali had retired. He said that Ali was so fast that he never bothered to teach him how to fight in close. To Ali's credit, he started to learn to do it late in his career when he had slowed down and began fighting flat-footed, but by then he had deteriorated noticeably in terms of speed. He showed a little bit of infighting skills in his 3rd fight with Norton and in his fight with Ron Lyle but by then it was too late for it to be of much help.

You forgot to mention that Ali had the habit of holding guys behind their head. It was Ali's unique brand of holding. He really didn't like to tie up the arms of an opponent, but preferred to hold them behind their head or give them a bear hug occasionally. Ali had so much charisma and such a huge fan following that referees and judges were intimidated by him to the point of allowing Ali to dictate his own rules inside the ring to some extent. Even Arthur Mercante gave up warning Ali for holding behind the head in the 3rd fight with Norton. Mercante was probably simply afraid of the repercussions for his career as a referee if he had started taking points away. To my knowledge, Ali never lost any points in his fights for holding. That in itself is significant.

Anyway, his career is long over and there's not much point in constantly harping on Ali's flaws inside and outside the ring. He seems like a genuinely warm and decent man today, whatever he did years ago. However, most boxing fans are not as old as I am and don't know what it was like in the 60s, 70s and early 80s when Ali was fighting. The man was bigger than life! He was held in complete awe by so many people in boxing, especially after his defeat of George Foreman. People lose their objectivity about him because of his stature in boxing history and his charisma.

i think lyle has made very good points. hes stated what we all know but no-one has had the balls to say it. I think ali was a great fighter but Ive never pushed what hes done in the ring and said outside the ring under the rug

Ali was one of the greats but he's been deified by biograpghers and journalists. I'm sure he did his share of good with his racial advocacy but he spouted a lot of reverse racism, religious intolerance and didn't appear to treat women like a devout man of any faith

The uncle Tom remarks about Frazier seemed out of place. Frazier's skin was a lot darker and his upbringing a lot poorer than Ali's.

Ali's also been the ruin of a lot of less talented and aspiring boxers. How many guys have you seen on TV let alone in the gym that get beaten up doing the things that Hamed, Ali and many other physically gifted but unorthodox fighters are able to get away with through superior athletic talent? (low hands, sticking chin out, mugging to the crowd,swaying back from punches etc)

Thanks for being able to see my view of things.

Oh yeah zacbox Rocky used elbows and everything...watch his KO of Archie Moore, he slams his head with his forearm to get him down.

The best of the best usually bend the rules to win. To be the best you need an edge, you don't really need to "cheat" but it ain't cheating if the ref never says anything about it.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

he had little regard for his wives which is important to me at least.

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That's your opinion, but I still think prime Tyson was a great fighter despite his rape conviction. I think Holyfield was a good fighter despite having about a hundred children by different women, I think lots of great fighters had little or no regard for women (the same percentage as most men, before people find another bandwagon to jump on). People on this forum seem to rate Ikeabuchi, Harry Greb, John L Sullivan, Stanley Ketchell etc etc etc etc

When assessing a fighters skill we should stick to the facts inside the ropes, otherwise we keep rewriting history based on the accepted morality of the day.

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Originally Posted by The Game

What's your problem with Ali? How comes you did not mention him being Muslim this time? What is the purpose of this thread? Why do you have have to be such an uptight a** all the time?

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:lolhaha:

Do you bash Vitali or Wladimer or Delahoya for doing the same thing ???

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Hello all, this will be sure to get me many of sad clicks but I don't give a F***.

Ali had skill HOWEVER no one every likes to admit he used questionable tactics at times...most of the time actually.
Here is a list of his favorite illegal boxing moves: backhanding the jab, holding and hitting, and leaving his jab extended for defensive purposes.

Those are illegal, he should have been penalized a whole lot more than he was...in fact I don't EVER remember him being penalized, I remember him being warned 50-60 times about holding and hitting though.

And now these fighters get picked on for their tactics that are similar to Ali's: Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Wladimir Klitschko, Ricky Hatton, John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Bernard Hopkins, Jermain Taylor, and the list goes on and on.

I just want to bring Ali down from the pedestal everyone has him on...he was skilled but he did bend and break rules but don't ever F****** tell me "___ is not Ali" like it's OK for Ali to do those things just because he is Ali and those guys won't ever be him.

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I think Ali is given special treatment partially because of his brilliance in the ring, his magnetic personality outside the ring and the fact that he is now crippled with Parkinson's Disease.

It's a fact that whilst in his current state of ill health nobody will publicly criticise the great man, but I'm sure within a few years of his death books about his darker side will be flooding out.

Personally I love Ali as a boxer and an entertainer. Sure he said some nasty things but that was his character, he needed to have a psychological edge over his opponents.

Regarding your rather scathing criticisms of Ali though, Lennox Lewis also called Frank Bruno an uncle Tom, whilst Ricardo Mayorga called De La Hoya a fag and a queer and said he wanted to stop the beating of his heart with his right hand.

Tyson said he wanted to eat Lennox Lewis' children (yes I know he didn't have any), whilst James Toney says no white man will ever be a heavyweight world champ.

My point is that boxing is an aggressive, violent sport where two people are literally expected to punch the life out of their opponent. Under such circumstances the ability to dominate the mental battle and undermine your opponent's confidence is paramount.

You cannot reasonably expect people to make a career out of beating another person up for your viewing pleasure but for them to still always remain respectful and polite about their rival's.

Boxing is an intense and brutal sport where you are competing for high stakes and risking your life. The other fighter in the ring with you is literally trying to smash your face in. He is your rival, your enemy. Under these circumstances it's not hard to understand that bad blood and nasty words can be exchanged.

Lyle i admire the guts you have to bring this up, it seems everyone to say a bad word against ali is heavily criticed.

Wow Lyle, people are really butt-hurt over this one! :'(

I think you hurt some peoples feelings.........

......funny how the truth can have that effect on people sometimes ;)

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Originally Posted by Taeth

How did anything you say prove he was a great character? He was a racist, and ignorant... He said more hypocritical things in his life than probably everybody on this forum combined.

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NOW I AM REALLY PISSED OFF AND OFFENDED - THERE IS NO WAY THAT HE, NOR ANYONE ELSE ON THIS FORUM, HAS SAID MORE HYPOCRITICAL THINGS THAN ME.

CHECK OUT MY RECORDS OF POSTS. I AM DEFINITELY THE BIGGEST HYPOCRITE HERE.

I like to watch Ali with my Television muted. This guy insulted just about every single fighter he fought. Some worthy of the abuse, others not. Just because boxing is percieved by some to be violent, doesn't mean that its competitors can't be gentlemen.



Often times smack talk is either put on to try to "scare" an opponent before a fight or to trick all the simpletons out there into believing that there may actually be a feud and that they MUST by a ticket right now because these two fighters are angry and are going to have at each other!!

Then there are some shit talkers, who just have deep personal issues with themselves or race or whatever. (JT).

Ali probably did it because he had a giant ego and probably tried to scare some of his opponents.


Whatever the reason, I found Ali's jibber jabber annoying, every clip the guy is running his mouth. May have been entertaining for the slow-witted folks, but to me it was just loads and loads of showboating.

There are talented heavyweight fighters out there right now who win fights and don't choose to showboat and insult their opponents during every single pre-fight interview. I am starting to respect this behavior more and more. But then again, I am a fan of the athleticism, strategy, or in a word the "science".
If I want drama I'll go to the movies.
No need to bring the pro-wrestling mentality to the boxing ring.

What I like about him was that speed as I said earlier. Truly unbelievable speed. That is why when I watch an ali fight I hit the mute button and there is a good possibility that the people who created the mute button had Ali in mind when they were at the drawing table.

Great fighters get away with more nonsense than other fighters do, thats part of what makes them great.
It's not rocket science and it's not new.
Marciano is a legend and he was some kind of filthy brawling mongrel in the ring, but it worked for him, it was part of his style and it certainly didn't stop him from dominating most of the 1950's and creating a lasting legacy of pugilistic greatness.
Pick out ANY of the great fighters and you will see them get up to mischief in every fight at some stage.
They seem to know which side of the opponent the ref is on and they throw something low, late or into the back of the head and it doesn't get picked up while they hold their opponent and roll them the other way from the ref.
They find devious ways to infect the other fighters psyche and get an edge.

This is not tiddlywinks folks, this is attempting to beat your opponent in physical combat and if it means causing them pain, causing them to bleed, scarring them or rendering them unconscious then that is part of the deal as soon as you step through the ropes.

I think Ali was the Greatest fighter of all times, no question.
Did he use dirty tactics when he needed to, when it suited him, when he felt like it?
Damn right he did.
I still feel for poor old Ernie Terrell. What Ali did to Ernie Terrell was FAR worse than calling Smokin' Joe an 'Uncle Tom'.
Gee whizz he called Frazier a name, get over it ::**
Even his trainer used dodgy tactics when he got in trouble. (Henry cooper)
It just adds to the stories, mystique and legend that is the the man we have come to know by a title beyond any boxing belts, he is
THE GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME.

Theres no second place in boxing.
There's a winner and a LOSER.
Which one do you want to be?
I know which one I want to be and I've hit opponents late, low and in the back of the head, I've butted them in the face and thumbed their eyes all of it intentional at times.
Not often, but when I needed to I did it and sometimes it worked, and other times I got points deducted, because ... I wasn't a 'great' fighter like the fellows we discuss so flippantly on here.

Muhammad Ali was like no other fighter because he overcame ENORMOUS personal, cultural and physical difficulties over a vast career where the best frickin years of his career were stolen from him because he was a voice for change that kept winning in the ring.
Unbelievably gifted with lightning fast hand speed and sharp quick footwork. His defence was impeccable and his movement just poetry in motion to watch. His conditioning was unparalleled. He created an entirely new style that has only been adopted successfully by the few very best fighters of later generations.
He fought 15 round contests all over the world in dozens of countries.
He went to the well more than almost any other fighter in history, and he did it all under a previously unequalled level of global scrutiny.
He was the first to smack talk with poetry etc.
He became elevated above the fight game and became a phenomena, a globally mutually revered and despised gladiator.
Greeted by world leaders, monarchs, he was a hero for millions and millions of people, like no other sports person has ever been before or since.

Did he get up to mischief and get away with it, YEAH!

So what?

It only added to his greatness, and no amount of latent misguided cheap shot negativity is ever going to change that. ;)

Lyle how can you bash Ali for the same things Wladimer and Vitali did ??? And you don't bash them in the same post?

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Originally Posted by The Whirlwind

Great fighters get away with more nonsense than other fighters do, thats part of what makes them great.
It's not rocket science and it's not new.
Marciano is a legend and he was some kind of filthy brawling mongrel in the ring, but it worked for him, it was part of his style and it certainly didn't stop him from dominating most of the 1950's and creating a lasting legacy of pugilistic greatness.
Pick out ANY of the great fighters and you will see them get up to mischief in every fight at some stage.
They seem to know which side of the opponent the ref is on and they throw something low, late or into the back of the head and it doesn't get picked up while they hold their opponent and roll them the other way from the ref.
They find devious ways to infect the other fighters psyche and get an edge.

This is not tiddlywinks folks, this is attempting to beat your opponent in physical combat and if it means causing them pain, causing them to bleed, scarring them or rendering them unconscious then that is part of the deal as soon as you step through the ropes.

I think Ali was the Greatest fighter of all times, no question.
Did he use dirty tactics when he needed to, when it suited him, when he felt like it?
Damn right he did.
I still feel for poor old Ernie Terrell. What Ali did to Ernie Terrell was FAR worse than calling Smokin' Joe an 'Uncle Tom'.
Gee whizz he called Frazier a name, get over it ::**
Even his trainer used dodgy tactics when he got in trouble. (Henry cooper)
It just adds to the stories, mystique and legend that is the the man we have come to know by a title beyond any boxing belts, he is
THE GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME.

Theres no second place in boxing.
There's a winner and a LOSER.
Which one do you want to be?
I know which one I want to be and I've hit opponents late, low and in the back of the head, I've butted them in the face and thumbed their eyes all of it intentional at times.
Not often, but when I needed to I did it and sometimes it worked, and other times I got points deducted, because ... I wasn't a 'great' fighter like the fellows we discuss so flippantly on here.

Muhammad Ali was like no other fighter because he overcame ENORMOUS personal, cultural and physical difficulties over a vast career where the best frickin years of his career were stolen from him because he was a voice for change that kept winning in the ring.
Unbelievably gifted with lightning fast hand speed and sharp quick footwork. His defence was impeccable and his movement just poetry in motion to watch. His conditioning was unparalleled. He created an entirely new style that has only been adopted successfully by the few very best fighters of later generations.
He fought 15 round contests all over the world in dozens of countries.
He went to the well more than almost any other fighter in history, and he did it all under a previously unequalled level of global scrutiny.
He was the first to smack talk with poetry etc.
He became elevated above the fight game and became a phenomena, a globally mutually revered and despised gladiator.
Greeted by world leaders, monarchs, he was a hero for millions and millions of people, like no other sports person has ever been before or since.

Did he get up to mischief and get away with it, YEAH!

So what?

It only added to his greatness, and no amount of latent misguided cheap shot negativity is ever going to change that. ;)

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And some felt that he was an obnoxious blabber mouth with great boxing skills. Who's right....who's wrong??

There is no right or wrong.....just different points of view. ;)

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Originally Posted by Starr

Lyle how can you bash Ali for the same things Wladimer and Vitali did ??? And you don't bash them in the same post?

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This is the reason Starr, Wlad and Vitali are bashed for the exact same things, I was wondering why it's ok to bash those guys for the same things Ali did.

I said that great fighters usually bend the rules in their favor guys like Demspey, Marciano, Tyson, Liston(well he went too far with the stuff he put in Ali's eyes), and yes even guys like The Klitschko's but why should Ali not have to answer the same questions?

If Ali is put on a pedestal and he doesn't answer to the same questions then it doesn't make him "The Greatest of All-Time" it puts him in a DIFFERENT category, and if all of his fans believe he's the greatest (which sure I rate him high but not #1) they should compare him to boxers the same way with the same rules or else he has an advantage that is unfair.

I don't want to knock Ali but if you campare him to someone else you have to see the bad stuff he did as well as the good just to be fair.