Rocky Marciano over rated(article)

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16.06.06 - By Karen Belford: Hello East Side People. On Saturday, ESPN is going to be having a six-hour telecast devoted to Rocky Marciano, who in case you didn’t know, is the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated. His record, an unbelievable 49-0, is hard for me to even imagine, seeing that it looks and sounds so good. That is, until I take a peek at who he actually fought during his career. Anyway, I thought I would chime in with some thoughts for this wonderful occasion, for it’s not every day that we get to see footage of a great hero like Marciano, at least not on free television.

Normally, I don't particularly enjoy reading about fighters from the distant past, mostly because, I feel, that boxing was more unskilled back then, the fighters looked so weak, and the heavyweight division, in particular, so watered down due to many of the young American men being forced to serve in the Korean War.

While I am fond of the heavyweight division, I don't really consider Marciano to be a true heavyweight given his short stature, which, at 5'11" 185 lb, he would even be considered small for Cruiserweight in this day and age. However, Marciano’s good luck of fighting during the war years, which had to have had a dramatic effect on the pool of quality opponents to compete with. I mean, it hardly seems sporting that there were so few quality fighters to gauge Marciano's talent.

What's even worse, Marciano's career heavyweight championship rein, a mere three years and 7 seven fights, came about, luckily for him, after Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott, had aged beyond their prime, leaving Marciano free beat up on the older warriors when they weren’t at their best. Even with most of the fighters either being in their upper 30's to early forties, Marciano had all he could handle with them considering their advanced age. Probably, for many people, what I'm saying about Marciano, is a bitter pill to swallow, but if you look into his ring history very far, I'm sure most of you would come to the same conclusion.

Of course, I still consider what Marciano accomplished in the ring to be extraordinary, yet I can keep it in proportion based on his level of competition. All the same, he succeeded very well at beating what was in front of him, and I commend him for that. I mean, who wouldn't want to retire young (age 33) and rich, with an undefeated record (49-0, 43 KO's) and get out while you were at your top? Without giving it much of a look, it appears to be an incredible accomplishment.

In October 1951, Rocky Marciano, with a 37-0 record, built largely on easy opposition, he met up with ex-heavyweight champion, Joe Louis, who by this time was 37-years-old, balding and fighting for the very last occasion. Sadly, Marciano beat the great champion, stopping Louis in the 8th round. However, despite losing, Louis had his moments in the fight, connecting frequently with his still powerful right hand to the head of Marciano, who looked dramatically smaller than the 6'2' 213 lb, Louis.

In watching the fight, the lasting impression in my mind was how good Louis looked, even in a losing effort, compared to the young, 28-year-old Marciano, who many people in the boxing world were raving about at the time. Based on what I saw, I think a younger Joe Louis would have very easily have knocked out Marciano, especially when you consider that Louis was both the bigger fighter, and more powerful puncher.

Following that fight, Marciano first fought for a heavyweight championship, defeating champion, Joe Walcott (51-16-2, 32 KO's), on September 1952. In case people don’t know this, Walcott was 38-years-old, and one fight away from retirement when he took this fight. However, despite Walcott's age and many ring wars, he completely dominated Marciano from the onset, knocking him down in the first round with a big left hand to head. Marciano made it up, but then took a one-sided beating all the way until the 13th round, when Marciano connected with a big right hand that dropped Walcott for the 10 count, completely out cold. To be sure, Marciano did what he had to do to win, but he looked less than impessive being bounced around the ring by a fighter close to 40-years-old. Not what you would expect for someone who is considered to be one of the best, if not the best heavyweight of all time.

Eight months later, in May 1953, Marciano met up with Walcott, once more, although this time, Walcott seemed a shell of himself, and seemed to freeze at the opening bell, as Marciano pounced on him, quickly knocking out a fearful looking Walcott, in the 1st round. I've seen this fight many times and always come to the same conclusion, that Walcott didn't seem mentally ready for the bout on this night and probably should have stayed home or maybe called in sick. Clearly, it wasn't the best way for Walcott to end his career, considering I think he had a little more left, at least enough to beat Marciano, if Walcott hadn't been so afraid.

Later that same year, in September 1953, Marciano would face an old nemesis of his, Roland Lastarza, who had previously fought Marciano in 1950, losing a very close decision. However, this time, instead of trying to fight aggressively, Lastarza fought more passively, allowing Marciano to stalk him and take the fight to him. It was a bad strategy, nevertheless, and it cost Lastarza, when Marciano caught up with him in the 11th round and knocked him out.

In June 1954, fought Ezzard Charles, then 33-years-old, another small heavyweight much like Marciano, although with smooth ring moves and much more skills than Marciano brings to the ring. However, by this point in Ezzard Charles' incredible career, he fought countless ring wars, having had fought over 90 times as a professional, with a ring record of 79-10. Clearly, from an outsider's perspective, Charles had fought one too many fights and was beyond his prime years. Still, though, Charles gave Marciano a boxing lesson over the first three quarters of the fight, before tiring in the later rounds and losing a close 15-round decision to Marciano. Frankly, I consider this fight to be no worse than a draw for Charles, if not an out right victory, because he won all the early rounds as far as the 9th, before Marciano started coming on. You have to remember, though, this was the 1950's, so it's no real surprise, that Marciano got the nod when it came to the score cards.

Unbelievably, after this incredible war, three months later, Marciano and Ezzard Charles, once again, got back in the ring together. To Marciano's credit, he showed integrity by fighting Charles a second time, although it was clearly an easy decision for him, one made for financial reasons, considering that that their first fight had been such a huge success with the public. This time, Charles's punches sliced and diced Marciano's face, splitting his nose wide open in a grotesque, disfiguring manner, and cutting him on his eyebrow, in the early going. Somehow, Marciano was able to gut it out, coming back to stop Charles in the 8th round. Charles was knocked down twice in the 8th, but fought heroically, despite losing the fight.

Sadly, this fight would signal the end for Charles as a contender, for he would fight on bravely for the next four years, losing 13 times and winning 10. His two fights with Marciano, among the many others in his career, would appear to have taken out the best of him. However, at the same time, Marciano, also appeared to be slowing down, and although he was only 31-years-old, he was starting to show signs of wear and tear.

In May 1955, Marciano had a relatively easy win over the British fighter, Don Cockell, beating him into a 9th round submission. Cockell, although up for the fight, he was steamrolled by Marciano’s big punches, to the point where Cockell could no longer raise his arms to properly defend himself, leaving open his chin for Marciano’s power shots.

Finally, perhaps sensing that his abilities were starting to diminish, Marciano fought for the final time on September 21, 1955, against 38-year-old ring veteran, Archie Moore (149-19-9, 107 KO’s). Despite his age, Moore was well preserved, and actually looked younger than Marciano, who was beginning to bald and show signs of putting on weight. To take this fight, Moore was moving up from the light heavyweight division, where he had dominated for the past three years, winning 24 consecutive fights before moving up to the heavyweight division to challenge Marciano for his title.

The fight got off to a vicious start with Moore taking the fight to Marciano and landing the harder, quicker shots. Moore, at 5”11 185, was roughly the same size as Marciano but much faster hands and the harder puncher. In 2nd round, Moore tagged Marciano with a tremendous shot, knocking him to the canvas, visibly hurt. Marciano made it back up, but took a lot of punishment from Moore for the next 5 rounds. However, by the 8th round, Marciano’s constant pressure began to wear down Moore, who wasn’t accustomed to being forced to fight at such a pace, considering that he had been a knockout artist for much of his career and usually ended his fights rather quickly with stunning knockouts.

Finally, the end came in the 9th round, when Marciano stopped a weary Moore, who could no longer take Marciano’s furious punishment and was beaten into submission.

Shortly after this fight, however, Marciano, at the age of 33, announced his retirement from boxing in April 1956. The announcement was a shock for many people, needless to say, for they figured that Marciano was going to hold onto the title for years to come, and had not seen a fighter quit while at the top. Perhaps this fight, including his two ring wars with Ezzard Charles, gave him a hint that he didn’t have much longer. Or possibly, Marciano might have been hearing the footsteps up the next heavyweight champion, Floyd Patterson, who was a young up and coming contender, with a 30-1 record at the time of Marciano’s retirement. Patterson would later win the vacant heavyweight title, stopping Archie Moore in the 5th round in November 1956, the same year that Marciano retired.

Personally, as I’ve already stated, I feel that Marciano was tremendously overrated as a fighter. He was good, yes, but he fought his toughest fights against fighters that were, for the most part, beyond their best years. So, when looking at his accomplishments, one must keep that in mind, otherwise you’re seeing a warped image of how good Marciano really was. Moreover, his ring record of 49-0, was largely build on fighting 2nd and 3rd tier fighters, opponents that were essentially ring fodder and were easily knocked out by quality fighters.

Historically, this too, is something that escapes people when looking at Marciano’s record. Indeed, if you were to take a good look at Marciano’s ring record, the only real quality fighters that he beat during his career were Joe Louis, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Rex Layne, Roland Lastarza, Harry “Kid” Matthews, and Jersey Joe Walcott. Not too good, is it? Especially when you throw in the fact that best ones out of the list, that is, Charles, Louis, Walcott and Moore, were either in their late 30’s, early forties or worn out from too many ring wars.

And, finally, in regards to Marciano’s supposedly devastating power, it, too, was completely overrated. Marciano, although he had 43 record knockouts on his record, he wasn’t a one-punch knockout artist or even the hardest puncher in the division, for that matter. If you want to look at harder punchers, Walcott, Louis, and Moore, were much harder punchers than Marciano ever was. Contrary to what people think, Marciano’s knockout were the result of his tremendous stamina, for he could punch nonstop without resting, resulting in Marciano clubbing his opponents into submission rather than stopping them with a tremendous shot. Throw in the fact that the vast majority of his opponents were of marginal ability, along with the old age and ring wear of the ones that were good, and you get a beautiful record of 49-0. It looks good on paper, but it hardly means that you were the best.

You can contact me at karenbelford1@yahoo.com

Although he is 49-0 I still dont hold him in elite, amazing, but not elite... :lickish:

To some extent I agree with the article.

However I dont believe Marciano's acheivements should be belittled. People should still be in awe of Marciano's acheivements, 49-0 is a great record regardless of his opposition. Despite those fighters being past their best years, they were all still dangerous and Marciano managed to pull out victories.

The way this should be looked at I believe is by looking at Marciano's ACHEIVEMENTS as one of the best we've ever seen. He beat everyone in front of him, never lost his title and had the good sense to leave the game when he knew he was on the down turn, something which is especially rare in boxer's.

Marciano the fighter should not be ranked as highly, analyse him objectively and you shouild still be able to put him the top 15 HW of all time, easily the top 20.

If you look at the acheivements and the fighter seperately you can come to better conclusions. Theres no need to vault Marciano up as a legend because of his amazing acheivements and no need to belittle the acheivement because of his flaws of a fighter.

I think this guy needs to see what people that faught Rocky said about his punches....they was brutal.

i am superior to rocky marciano as i beat my little brother in 50 consective thumb war battles.


therefore

barbaro 50 victories
rocky marcaino 49 victories

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Originally Posted by cockey cockney

I think this guy needs to see what people that faught Rocky said about his punches....they was brutal.

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they never bring that up...this is the same tired a** story that is constantly brought up to belittle Marciano's legacy....the H8ers are always going to be there and they simply post more articles than those that are for Marciano......I read the story for a good laugh and throw it away.....

Rocky Marciano was great fighter in that era . Tuff as nails and warrior mentality. To belittle his legacy is futile .

Rocky was over-rated. Of course he was.

He was a one-dimensional brawler with little or no defense, who fought in a particularly non-descript heavyweight era, beating shopworn fighters like Joe Louis, Walcott, Charles (I think both were over 35 at the times, and veterans of god knows how many fights), but at the end of the day you can't ignore a 100% record, and some real gutsy, gritty, warrior-like performances.

He beat every one put in his path, and he reigned as World Heavyweight Champion. But he doesn't make my top 10 HW list.

does the fact Archie Moore said he hit him with his hardest punch ever and he got up account for a little of anything? Look at the fighters today, they are horrible. Oh and I suppose your going to say someone like Lennox (I ran from Klitcho and retired) Lewis was better?

And what age was the Ol Mongoose when Rocky beat him? He was pushing forty, and had seen much better days.

We know Rocky had a big heart, and never quit. That's not the argument here. Lennox Lewis got hit with one of the biggest heavyweight shots in recent history against Rahman, and got up, too. That doesn't mean anything in terms of what we're talking about here.

Marciano was overrated IMO.

And in terms of whether Lewis was better...What do you mean by better? Head to head Lewis crushes Marciano. Remember, the Rock was only a cruiserweight. Fighting today he wouldn't even be in the same division. Was Rocky better? Allround, no. Lewis was better. Was Rocky 'greater'? Arguments can be made either way.

Again, I would tend to disagree.

You talk about Lewis retiring to avoid the Klitshcko rematch. Rocky retired to avoid Floyd Patterson, and every one knows it. But Marciano was still a great champion.

Everyone keeps going on about size and weight...The most recently dominating heavyweight champs were Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis with Holhfield and Tyson being small...Todays super-heavyweights stop throwing punches after 6 rounds or like Valuev have very little power for their size....bring back the 15 round fights that Marciano, Ali, Frazier, etc.. had to fight and let's see how many heavyweight come in at 250lbs...does lewis destroy Maciano, maybe but to deny that Marciano was great simply because he was small is ridiculous...

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Originally Posted by The Promoter

Everyone keeps going on about size and weight...The most recently dominating heavyweight champs were Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis with Holhfield and Tyson being small...Todays super-heavyweights stop throwing punches after 6 rounds or like Valuev have very little power for their size....bring back the 15 round fights that Marciano, Ali, Frazier, etc.. had to fight and let's see how many heavyweight come in at 250lbs...does lewis destroy Maciano, maybe but to deny that Marciano was great simply because he was small is ridiculous...

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marciano was great............thats the way it is

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Originally Posted by The Promoter

Everyone keeps going on about size and weight...The most recently dominating heavyweight champs were Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis with Holhfield and Tyson being small...Todays super-heavyweights stop throwing punches after 6 rounds or like Valuev have very little power for their size....bring back the 15 round fights that Marciano, Ali, Frazier, etc.. had to fight and let's see how many heavyweight come in at 250lbs...does lewis destroy Maciano, maybe but to deny that Marciano was great simply because he was small is ridiculous...

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Sure, but Tyson small is around 220, sheer ripped muscle and bulk (we're talking prime here)

Marciano was around 190, and although very physically strong and built he didn't look like a Tyson, in terms of finesse/physique. Same for Holyfield.

Todays super-heavyweights are awful, you're right. No one disputed this.

And I already said Marciano was great. That wasn't in dispute either. Read other peoples posts first.

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Originally Posted by The_Mac10

And what age was the Ol Mongoose when Rocky beat him? He was pushing forty, and had seen much better days.

We know Rocky had a big heart, and never quit. That's not the argument here. Lennox Lewis got hit with one of the biggest heavyweight shots in recent history against Rahman, and got up, too. That doesn't mean anything in terms of what we're talking about here.

Marciano was overrated IMO.

And in terms of whether Lewis was better...What do you mean by better? Head to head Lewis crushes Marciano. Remember, the Rock was only a cruiserweight. Fighting today he wouldn't even be in the same division. Was Rocky better? Allround, no. Lewis was better. Was Rocky 'greater'? Arguments can be made either way.

Again, I would tend to disagree.

You talk about Lewis retiring to avoid the Klitshcko rematch. Rocky retired to avoid Floyd Patterson, and every one knows it. But Marciano was still a great champion.

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First of all the article was written by a women, Karen Belford, I don't respect a womens opinion about boxing, especially when she rips Marciano and his legacy, 49-0-0-43 K.O.s, you would think he fought a bunch of short order cooks, the way she degrades Marciano. As for her claim that Louis was harder puncher, I don't think so. Louis IMO is the greatest Heavyweight champ of all time, but for just one punch Marciano is better, Walcott even stated as such. As for mac10 statement that Marciano ducked Patterson your outta your mind, Marciano would have really hurt soft chinned Floyd, and everyone knows it, and sure Archie Moore was old when he fought Marciano but he was in his fifties when Ali fought him and no one questions that. Marciano retired after the Moore fight because of back problems and to get away from his manager Al Weill, who was robbing him blind, and as one sports writer wrote "How much longer can Rocky subject his short stocky body to this type of punishment and remain a rational thinking human being is something I care not think about"! There's only one BROCKTON BLOCKBUSTER....REST IN PEACE ROCK.

Yeah, and Ali destroyed him of course.

Whatever, look, I and many others beside find it ominous to say the least that Marciano retired just as a slick, crafty heavyweight with the perfect style to beat him started making waves (Patterson).

Whether Rocky wouldv'e beat him - who can say? But I think he sensed an imminent changing of the guard, and bowed out. Fair enough. He was a great champion and I'll never say otherwise.

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Originally Posted by mafiajoey

does the fact Archie Moore said he hit him with his hardest punch ever and he got up account for a little of anything? Look at the fighters today, they are horrible. Oh and I suppose your going to say someone like Lennox (I ran from Klitcho and retired) Lewis was better?

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Lennox was 40, marciano was 32 he ranned away like a lil bitch.
He had no boxing skills , no defense only heart and power.he was just a slugger .
If i ask you guys why we should put him in the top then the only reason people will give is because he had a 0 loss reccord. Ok then lets wait a couple of years so we could put valuev in there next to marciano to. i mean the guy beated clifford ettiene, john ruiz, larry donald, paulo vidoz . all these guys are over 30 , ah and maybe if lennox lewis does a come back valuev can beat him to just like marciano did to luis. yeah people valuev and marciano together the greatest boxers of all time. yeah mayby they aint got boxing skills but at least they have never lost.

Yeah he's overrated. Hypothetically, If he were fighting today's heavyweights, he wouldn't be fighting at 190lbs. Marciano would be fighting at least 215lbs. You have to compare every fighters records for who they beat, at what age they beat them at and finally their ring record going into the fight. You cannot make a comparison of fighters by won lost record alone. I liked the Rocks fighting style, but he was untested by top ranked young fighters.

I agree that he was over rated. He acheived great things in the light of his size and skill limitations but I can't imagine him beating a Larry Holmes style jab and mover with a good chin or taking the incoming against a skillful modern super heavy like a prime Lewis or Bowe.

I do realize that this could get me execommunicated from the Catholic Church and make me unwelcome in Pizza Parlours and among white supremacist friends if I had any

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Originally Posted by The_Mac10

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Originally Posted by The Promoter

Everyone keeps going on about size and weight...The most recently dominating heavyweight champs were Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis with Holhfield and Tyson being small...Todays super-heavyweights stop throwing punches after 6 rounds or like Valuev have very little power for their size....bring back the 15 round fights that Marciano, Ali, Frazier, etc.. had to fight and let's see how many heavyweight come in at 250lbs...does lewis destroy Maciano, maybe but to deny that Marciano was great simply because he was small is ridiculous...

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Sure, but Tyson small is around 220, sheer ripped muscle and bulk (we're talking prime here)

Marciano was around 190, and although very physically strong and built he didn't look like a Tyson, in terms of finesse/physique. Same for Holyfield.

Todays super-heavyweights are awful, you're right. No one disputed this.

And I already said Marciano was great. That wasn't in dispute either. Read other peoples posts first.

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A prime Tyson was about 216 and and again trained for 12 round fights....and todays training methods use weight lifting and nutrition techniques that were unknown in marciano's day(they were FORBIDDEN to lift weights)...with todays techniques and training for 12 rounds instead of 15 Marciano would have easily been a natural 215-220 heavyweight...hell if he were on James Toney's training regimen he'd be 250!!!

people go on about a "ripped" 220, 230, 240 or whatever...which doesn't mean a whole lot...if it did, Mike Weaver, Frank Bruno and Bruce Seldon would have been legendary champions...

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Originally Posted by Lords Gym

Rocky Marciano was great fighter in that era . Tuff as nails and warrior mentality. To belittle his legacy is futile .

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Thoroughly agreed..................I don't know what The Gayme is trying to accomplish by positng this article but move on.......the leagcy is already there.....the record is there and there ain't jack shit you can do about it. :o

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Originally Posted by N.Begian

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Originally Posted by mafiajoey

does the fact Archie Moore said he hit him with his hardest punch ever and he got up account for a little of anything? Look at the fighters today, they are horrible. Oh and I suppose your going to say someone like Lennox (I ran from Klitcho and retired) Lewis was better?

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Lennox was 40, marciano was 32 he ranned away like a lil bitch.
He had no boxing skills , no defense only heart and power.he was just a slugger .
If i ask you guys why we should put him in the top then the only reason people will give is because he had a 0 loss reccord. Ok then lets wait a couple of years so we could put valuev in there next to marciano to. i mean the guy beated clifford ettiene, john ruiz, larry donald, paulo vidoz . all these guys are over 30 , ah and maybe if lennox lewis does a come back valuev can beat him to just like marciano did to luis. yeah people valuev and marciano together the greatest boxers of all time. yeah mayby they aint got boxing skills but at least they have never lost.

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by makikng the comment Marciano ran away lets me know you have limited history when it comes to the Rock....he quit because of pressure from his mother and wife to leave the game.....and he had solidly beat everyone at the time...so he walked away....that is what make him great..knowing when to leave and sticking with it is almost impossible to do....