Should Hopkins have moved up to Light Heavy a few years ago?

I know this has been discussed before, but I have just watched Tarver v Hopkins again and Hopkins had so much more energy, movement & endeavour than we saw in his last 2 or 3 years at Middle. His legacy is very slightly tainted by the 2 Taylor defeats, but he was obviously really tight at the weight and suffering to achieve status as a legendary middle weight and get the 20 defences record.

I was just thinking had he have moved up and cleared out the Light Heavy division earlier he would probably have increased his legacy even more than he did by achieving the 20 defences.

He looked like a 25 year old against Tarver - fantastic and obviously his true weight!

Yea probably, especially since Taylor wasn't exactly someone people were screaming at Bhop to fight, neither was Eastman or really anyone he fought at middle after beating Trinidad.. Fights with Tarver, Calzaghe and Jones Jr. would have all been great contests a few years ago imo, but really... Hopkins did just clean up the light heavyweight division by whipping Tarver, there's noone else there to speak of. Woods, Glen Johnson, but Hopkins already destroyed him some years ago. I would personally still love to see Calzaghe step up to 175 and fight HOpkins, but I imagine Hopkins won't fight again.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Yea probably, especially since Taylor wasn't exactly someone people were screaming at Bhop to fight, neither was Eastman or really anyone he fought at middle after beating Trinidad.. Fights with Tarver, Calzaghe and Jones Jr. would have all been great contests a few years ago imo, but really... Hopkins did just clean up the light heavyweight division by whipping Tarver, there's noone else there to speak of. Woods, Glen Johnson, but Hopkins already destroyed him some years ago. I would personally still love to see Calzaghe step up to 175 and fight HOpkins, but I imagine Hopkins won't fight again.

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Yeh Hopkins v Calzaghe at 175 would have to be one of the biggest fights out thrre at the moment, but Hopkins def won't fight again and Calzaghe's hands can probably only take one more fight

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Originally Posted by BIG H

I know this has been discussed before, but I have just watched Tarver v Hopkins again and Hopkins had so much more energy, movement & endeavour than we saw in his last 2 or 3 years at Middle. His legacy is very slightly tainted by the 2 Taylor defeats, but he was obviously really tight at the weight and suffering to achieve status as a legendary middle weight and get the 20 defences record.

I was just thinking had he have moved up and cleared out the Light Heavy division earlier he would probably have increased his legacy even more than he did by achieving the 20 defences.

He looked like a 25 year old against Tarver - fantastic and obviously his true weight!

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Probably not. Hopkins stayed where he was once Toney and Jones had moved up. If he would have had to face prime Toney or Roy Jones his long unbeaten run may very well not have happend.

But he did look fantastic against Tarver. I can't help but feel that he wouldn't do as well against Clinton Woods, Joe Calzaghe or Glen Johnsonn though.

Hopkins at 160lbs was damn near beating Jermain Taylor...twice!!! Despite being 40+ years old...

Indeed some thought he actually won both contests!

Why move up, when you are that good?

What should be remembered is that Hopkins probably had demons at competing at 175lbs, after all he did lose his pro debut at the weight. ;)

I think he could have done well at 175, its easy to see that after Tarver, and he definitely could have handled 168, but I don't think he really needed to move up.

He always stayed in shape, and never seemed to have that much of a problem with making weight

If he does retire for good and he only fights once at 175 its a bit hard to answer. Was he that much better at 175 or was Tarver a really good style matchup for him?

Nope.

Nothing would have/could have motivated Hopkins more than writing the wrongs against Taylor with Tarver other than beating Roy Jones jr a second time around & we all saw what issues came with securing the rematch with Jones on both occassions.

He killed two birds with one stone when he beat Tarver.

He did the right thing...now he needs to put a stamp on his retirement plan & put that shat in the mail...don't be on FNF's saying that if someone came up with the right amount of bills you might come back...just fwockin go!

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I think he could have done well at 175, its easy to see that after Tarver, and he definitely could have handled 168, but I don't think he really needed to move up.

He always stayed in shape, and never seemed to have that much of a problem with making weight

If he does retire for good and he only fights once at 175 its a bit hard to answer. Was he that much better at 175 or was Tarver a really good style matchup for him?

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Yeh I hear what you are saying, I just think that in the performances against Eastman and the 2 Taylor fights, he looked like the years had caught up with him, but when he made the move up he looked more energised than I had seen him since the Tito fight. Hard to say, but I wonder that if he hadn't been tight at the weight, wouldn't he have dismantled JT with ease? I really don't know

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

Nope.

Nothing would have/could have motivated Hopkins more than writing the wrongs against Taylor with Tarver other than beating Roy Jones jr a second time around & we all saw what issues came with securing the rematch with Jones on both occassions.

He killed two birds with one stone when he beat Tarver.

He did the right thing...now he needs to put a stamp on his retirement plan & put that shat in the mail...don't be on FNF's saying that if someone came up with the right amount of bills you might come back...just fwockin go!

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Yeh he def needs to bow out on this high

Hopkins post Tarver has announced his retirement for the first mainstream time, who are we to disagree?

But to threaten him, he should contenplate that post 93, I have only picked for him to win in the two Taylor fights; and if he ever comes back I will pick him to win again!!! ;)

It depends on what he was looking for . If he wanted challenges then Yes , he should have moved up. If he wanted to make mados and add to his long line of defenses , then No . Hop is not a risk taker so he chose a hard road weight wise but an easier road in terms of the middleweight division and it's lackluster talent pool .

He needs to stay retired. period. how much f-ing money does it take to make one happy?... ::**

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Originally Posted by ender

Hop is not a risk taker so he chose a hard road weight wise but an easier road in terms of the middleweight division and it's lackluster talent pool .

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He was there for a lot of years ... plenty of time for it to move into and out of lackluster a couple-three times. To say he chose to stay there because it was lackluster and so he could be the big fish in a little pond ...

Well, I don't quite buy that.

I'm all for folks who should retire to just retire and stay that way.

But I'm all for Hopkins to fight again. I'd like to see him fight Taylor at 168.

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Originally Posted by ender

It depends on what he was looking for . If he wanted challenges then Yes , he should have moved up. If he wanted to make mados and add to his long line of defenses , then No . Hop is not a risk taker so he chose a hard road weight wise but an easier road in terms of the middleweight division and it's lackluster talent pool .

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Personally...I don't see 160lbs being an easy road for Hopkins. Hopkins took a lot of really good fighters & made them look bad.

Many people underrate the Nard & his opposition but fighters such as Lipsey, Jackson, Echols, Glen Johnson, Vanderpool, Joppy, & Eastman were often written off due to the fact that the middle weight division was shunned during the peak of heavyweight boxing & most people hadn't followed these men.

They were not walks in the park & several of them were undefeated up to the point that they reached the Terror...aka: the Executioner...aka: Bernard Hopkins.

No, because he wouldn't have beaten Roy Jones Jr.

I don't look down on his accomplishment at all. If I have the fortune of being able to vote him into the hall, it will be my pleasure. Staying at 160 and being consistent for 20 defenses is amazing . But up til he fought Tarver , who wasn't as good IMO as some of the names you mentioned ( Joppy had been Trinidized by that point but the others were viable and dangerous guys ) , he never dared to be great by taking a risk against a bigger guy . And even the Tarver fight was a calculated move IMO .

And what about the names you didn't mention ? Robert Allen 3 times is not impressive . IF you can't beat Allen's ass bad enough the first or second time , what is the problem ? O0

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Originally Posted by ender

I don't look down on his accomplishment at all. If I have the fortune of being able to vote him into the hall, it will be my pleasure. Staying at 160 and being consistent for 20 defenses is amazing .

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Sure it's amazing...no other fighter has done it...but other fighters have fought lesser opposition going from division to division & have done less work...but they are then called marvels.

I don't buy into that bullshat.

People call Mayweather great, people call Taylor great, people call Hatton great...but none of them did or have done what Hopkins did...& he catches flack for fighting in a weak division...the division was not that weak...people just didn't really follow the fighters.

I will agree that it wasn't full of Haglers, Leonards, & Hearns...but it wasn't at the current state of 200+ pounds.

Hopkins deserves credit as do the mean that he beat.

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Originally Posted by ender

But up til he fought Tarver , who wasn't as good IMO as some of the names you mentioned ( Joppy had been Trinidized by that point but the others were viable and dangerous guys ) , he never dared to be great by taking a risk against a bigger guy . And even the Tarver fight was a calculated move IMO .

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If you don't think that the guys that I mentioned weren't bigger guys...then I'm a bit curoius about the way that you follow weight classes or divisions.

The bulk of the men that Hopkins fought were light middles & middles...all in his weight class.

Trinidad was lighter...but one of the baddest men on the planet.

Oscar was lighter...but again...one of the better boxers out there of name & thinking that Tarver was a calculated move doesn't come in to play for me. He beat Jones twice & he beat Johnson...he was the best at 175lbs & Hopkins beat him.

You can sit there & tear into anyone's record...but as you do that...again...I bring into play Oscar. Lost his previous fight to Hopkins...lost to Sturm (IWO)...lost to Mosley...all great fighters...but then went on to destroy Mayorga...who many said was a dangerous task to a man that was outside the ring for 2 years fwockin off & promoting...but Oscar did indeed destroy him...many say that was calculated...as many bring up of other things in boxing.

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Originally Posted by ender

And what about the names you didn't mention ? Robert Allen 3 times is not impressive . IF you can't beat Allen's a** bad enough the first or second time , what is the problem ? O0

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What about the names I didn't mention? Allen was a safe bet to secure the Oscar fight. The first fight was a no contest because Hopkins was pushed out of the ring by Mills Lane.

There's no problem wonder why the rematch. Allen was a tough guy...you might not see it that way...but sorry he was.

The rubber match...again...safe bet...but mission accomplished. Hopkins ko'd a never before ko'd Oscar & he beat the piss out of Tarver...something that the great Roy Jones Jr could not do...those are facts that can't be scrutinized under any opinions...yours, mine, or any others.

Allen was a safe bet but how about Hopkins Echols 3?

But what did those men accomplish at Lt Heavy and Middle other than lose to Hop and other champs they faced ?

Look, I don't want to get into a debate about Hops opposition. There were tough guys there and I agree most just weren't following the division BUT , after Tito , he should have secured his defense status like he did ( though Carl Daniels was a dubiosu choice IMO . Funny hopw the fans jumped all over Taylor for wantiung a hometown defense instead of Winky but Hop gets to have Daniels no questions asked ) .

Tito and Oscar started at 140 and 130 resepctively . They were threats in hype only . Tito moreso but it was evident in teh ring that his power alone would not work against the bigger , natural middle /lt hvy Hopkins .

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Originally Posted by Majesty

Allen was a safe bet but how about Hopkins Echols 3?

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There wasn't one.

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Originally Posted by ender

But what did those men accomplish at Lt Heavy and Middle other than lose to Hop and other champs they faced ?

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They were either on their way up or they were top men until Hopkins got them.

Kind of like what you said about Joppy...losing his credibility after getting beaten by Tito.

I don't follow the lines like that because they curve to suit a bit too much.

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Originally Posted by ender

Look, I don't want to get into a debate about Hops opposition. There were tough guys there and I agree most just weren't following the division BUT , after Tito , he should have secured his defense status like he did ( though Carl Daniels was a dubiosu choice IMO . Funny hopw the fans jumped all over Taylor for wantiung a hometown defense instead of Winky but Hop gets to have Daniels no questions asked ) .

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The debate of Hopkins opp is always subject to opinion...but he still beat those men & he still did something that no one else has or probably will in the nest 10-15 years.

The thing is...you say that you don't want to debate about his opp...but you do...throwing in Carl Daniels...but you push out the fact of beating Tito & Oscar below.

That's trying to discredit his oppostion.

Nothing wrong with Taylor wanting a hometown defense...I have no problem with that as I kind of believed in Taylor before seeing him fight actual opposition...but we really shouldn't go into to Taylor's opposition before Bernard...you'd see more than 2 men on the way up with Taylor in 24 fights wouldn't you?

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Originally Posted by ender

Tito and Oscar started at 140 and 130 resepctively . They were threats in hype only . Tito moreso but it was evident in teh ring that his power alone would not work against the bigger , natural middle /lt hvy Hopkins .

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Oscar & Tito were more than just hype but if you measure Hopkins career only by those two...no offense...but I have to lump you into the group of people that didn't follow the 160lb division that Hopkins fought...again...no offense.

Tito broke down on power against Hopkins...but he faltered just like he did against Oscar & Wright...fighters that had a game plan & a good defensive craft.

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by Majesty

Allen was a safe bet but how about Hopkins Echols 3?

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There wasn't one.

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I was asking you why didn't they go with that one instead?

i think yes he should of. he could of fought fighters like roy jones and lacy who he would of defeated.

Im not sure if he should of becuase i think he was doing brilliantly at middle as a king. Im more then happy with how Bernards career has panned out other then the Taylor fights obviously.

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Originally Posted by cockey cockney

Im not sure if he should of becuase i think he was doing brilliantly at middle as a king. Im more then happy with how Bernards career has panned out other then the Taylor fights obviously.

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:coolclick: Well said.

I don't understand how some people here still cant give B-HOP credit and respect. He accomplished a lot and IMO he is great fighter and future HOF. He could of move up in weight long time ago but didn't so what??? Big deal i don't think so,he moved for his last fight and destroyed Tarver the best man in LHW and doing that he kill two birds with one stone like Wack posted. Again nobody know what would of happen if RJJ fought B-HOP second time,fight never happened so we could only predict like I would post B-HOP would of won or someone like RJJ fan would easy win for RJJ. Anyway he should stay retired he doesn't need to prove anything he is already HOF. ;)

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by Majesty

Allen was a safe bet but how about Hopkins Echols 3?

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There wasn't one.

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I was asking you why didn't they go with that one instead?

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My mistake.

Did you see either one of the fights? Hopkins beat him...even with the throw down manuever he beat him soundly over 12 & then dropped him in 10 the second time. No use in that & the fact that Echols got his ass handed to him twice in the meantime, once by Mundine & then he got TKO'd by Ikeke, pretty much ruled him out completely.

Hopkins & Echols had a serious hate on for each other & I seriously doubt that Bernard wanted to help Echols earn another cent.

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Originally Posted by sillent killer

I don't understand how some people here still cant give B-HOP credit and respect. He accomplished a lot and IMO he is great fighter and future HOF. He could of move up in weight long time ago but didn't so what??? Big deal i don't think so,he moved for his last fight and destroyed Tarver the best man in LHW and doing that he kill two birds with one stone like Wack posted. Again nobody know what would of happen if RJJ fought B-HOP second time,fight never happened so we could only predict like I would post B-HOP would of won or someone like RJJ fan would easy win for RJJ. Anyway he should stay retired he doesn't need to prove anything he is already HOF. ;)

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:coolclick: Well said.

Agreed on the RJJ BHop rematch...no one knows what would have happened...but had Hopkins got up for Jones in the rematch like he did against Tarver this go round...Jones would have been stopped...I really do believe that.

I was very surprised that Tarver wasn't stopped. God knows he should have been...looking at his face.

Ooooooooooooooooooooh man damn!

B-Hop should have at least gone up to 168 to fight Toney or Calzaghe but he had a defense streak going so I don't mind him staying at 160 but he fought some attrocious boxers there

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Originally Posted by Lyle

B-Hop should have at least gone up to 168 to fight Toney or Calzaghe but he had a defense streak going so I don't mind him staying at 160 but he fought some attrocious boxers there

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as well as some really good ones......you can't rule a division for over 10 years with 20 title defences and just get by by fighting hacks......I wish B-HOP would have stepped up and fought Joe C.....but B-HOP wanted to follow the career of his favorite fighter and go for the LTHW belt instead.....he left behind a HOF legacy.......

Hopkins traveled a near perfect career. I think his timing for moving to light heavyweight was perfect.

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by Majesty

Allen was a safe bet but how about Hopkins Echols 3?

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There wasn't one.

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Originally Posted by ender

But what did those men accomplish at Lt Heavy and Middle other than lose to Hop and other champs they faced ?

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They were either on their way up or they were top men until Hopkins got them.

Kind of like what you said about Joppy...losing his credibility after getting beaten by Tito.

I don't follow the lines like that because they curve to suit a bit too much.

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Originally Posted by ender

Look, I don't want to get into a debate about Hops opposition. There were tough guys there and I agree most just weren't following the division BUT , after Tito , he should have secured his defense status like he did ( though Carl Daniels was a dubiosu choice IMO . Funny hopw the fans jumped all over Taylor for wantiung a hometown defense instead of Winky but Hop gets to have Daniels no questions asked ) .

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The debate of Hopkins opp is always subject to opinion...but he still beat those men & he still did something that no one else has or probably will in the nest 10-15 years.

The thing is...you say that you don't want to debate about his opp...but you do...throwing in Carl Daniels...but you push out the fact of beating Tito & Oscar below.

That's trying to discredit his oppostion.

Nothing wrong with Taylor wanting a hometown defense...I have no problem with that as I kind of believed in Taylor before seeing him fight actual opposition...but we really shouldn't go into to Taylor's opposition before Bernard...you'd see more than 2 men on the way up with Taylor in 24 fights wouldn't you?

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Originally Posted by ender

Tito and Oscar started at 140 and 130 resepctively . They were threats in hype only . Tito moreso but it was evident in teh ring that his power alone would not work against the bigger , natural middle /lt hvy Hopkins .

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Oscar & Tito were more than just hype but if you measure Hopkins career only by those two...no offense...but I have to lump you into the group of people that didn't follow the 160lb division that Hopkins fought...again...no offense.

Tito broke down on power against Hopkins...but he faltered just like he did against Oscar & Wright...fighters that had a game plan & a good defensive craft.

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I didn't throw in Carl Daniels, Hop did . There is no debate where he is concerned. He was not a that worthy of an opponent. Just like Morrade Hakkar and Robert Allen .

Just because I call Oscar and Tito hype doesn't mean I didn't follow the middleweights during that time. The middles and welters have always been my favorite divisions. I was the only guy in circle of friends who thought Tito was in trouble leading itno the Hop fight.

What I mean by hype is that Tito was and is a natural welter / jr. middle. He is not a middleweight . Not the way Hop is IMO . Sure he detroyed Joppy but 1) Joppy stood in front of him with his hands down like and idiot and 2) the ring favored Tito . It was a brand new puncher's surface . Spongy and hard to move on which was Joppy's plan . What are his other wins there ? Mayorga ? IMO it is a good win since they both came from the lower weight classes . It was good scrap any way you slice it. But Cherifi ? Dude was old and past it . And then Wright where Tito looked terrible and fought worse .

Now Oscar at middleweight looked terrible as well. He didn't even win his tuneup . There was no one to be fpound with any sense that felt Oscar had a chance against BHOP . It was competitive for as long as BHOP wanted it to be . Simple as that . But to say that those are two fighters in danger of beating Hop , maybe Tito , but not really .

What fighter doesn't have trouble against good defensive fighters with multiple gameplans and good jabs ? It's a big knock on Tito but Oscar shares that history as well . Mosley doesn't do well against jabs , either or bigger fighters . Why is it that Tioto gets knocked but those guys don't ? That has always been strange to me. At least Tito went otu with a fight against Hop. Oscar is still trying to convince people it was a liver shot and he didn't take a dive .

Incidentally , on the DL , a source fo mine told me they saw Mayo faded as hell the night before the Oscar fight . Til at least 1 AM . Nice .