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both self proclaimed the greatest--ali i belive has alot more right 4 that claim
60's --ali-by ud or ko14
70's--ali-by-ud
60's ali would dance around while holmes chases him-ali would land some vicious combos on holmes maybe even tko him-
70's ali would take alot more hits, no chance of a ko--larry has a good chin--this would b a war--but ali would win by close decison
yes im biast--sorry holmes u aint the greatest
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE! ALI would humilate Holmes in both cases. ALI was the master and Holmes was the apprentice literally man.
Holmes was good and you gotta give him his, but EVERYONE knows Holmes fought a shot, not himself version of ALI. A prime ALI would humiliate Holmes and you can take that to the bank my friend!
Well, interesting comments. Generally speaking you simply can't compare older athletes with newer. A world class 100 meter sprinter in 1940 wouldnt make a high school team in the 90's the times tell the truth!. a football lineman in 1950 weighed 240 pounds IF HE WAS A BIG ONE!! now they are 340 pounds and O linemen up to 400 lbs the old super duper star couldnt make any nfl team now!! Any sport with a quantatative measurement, ie a time, makes the point clear. Try weightlifting for example, Old benchpress records or 600 lbs are now up to 900 lbs!!! Put Ali in a time machine and bring him in his prime to the year 2007 he wouldnt make the top 10. Same thing if you bring him ahead 15 years to fight Holmes....i dont think it would be a contest. Now, if you had them all born and raised at the same time..same training, nutrition etc......a whole new discussion..
WHOA that was rather wrong actually cause ALI, Holmes, would both mop all the sorry bastards who call themselves HW contenders today. had they been put in a time machine as u say hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Time Machine, this is f*ckin' hilarious!
First thing's first Rachman could never beat Ali! :lol:
Well...... thats all you need to say! :lolhaha:
Well I'm patient so I'll give a better answer...
Boxing is ART. You get me? You probably don't, but go in the ring and find out yourself! haha
Or watch and learn from the fights of today.
Alright, once you learned that and have accepted that.
Lets think of this problem again.
Science is about quantifying right? Bench press numbers, weight, blah blah? Right?
Then how can you quantify ART? Can you narrow down a Mozart performance by a number? Or how about Michelangelo painting? YOU CAN'T!!!
Art is amazing, it's one of those things in life where you can't scientifically quantify it, but YOU KNOW it's Great.
Saying Ali would lose to today's HW's,
is like comparing the Great Miles Davis to R Kelly! hahaha :D
I deserve CC's for that dissertation paper! haha ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Gyrokai
firstly ali would never beat holmes easy remember holmes getting better of ali at sparring in rumble in jungle ?? holmes fights bit similar to ali he can do rope a dope tactic like he can dance on his toes like him and hes jab is better than his so im going take 15 round sd for .... holmes
id say no that far off being greatest all people will think ali but actually holmes was like young version of ali and he had better jab than himQuote:
Originally Posted by undefeated
Better Jab, so Holmes wins. hahaha You guys are talking like novices! :D
Silly Boxing Fans. :)
Everybody knows Ali shines when he's under the spotlight, being watched by MILLIONS AROUND THE WORLD!!!
umm no silly i was stating that he had better jab i didnt say he wins by having better jab im saying all of what ali can do holmes can do it aswell there pretty evenly matched theres not alot in it Everybody knows Ali shines when he's under the spotlight, being watched by MILLIONS AROUND THE WORLD!!! and i dont see what that comment has got to do with anything and actually having better jab is good advantage because the jab is key weapon in boxingQuote:
Originally Posted by Gyrokai
Exactly! You can't base it on just a "JAB."Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Boxing is WAAAAYYYYY more than a great jab. It's everything!
No Holmes didn't dance as well as Ali did. Ring Generalship King, was Ali. Although people pay more attention to his speed, which he was faster than Holmes.
And Ali's jab was no sissy jab either! haha
Lets also consider Holmes' whiskers, although Ali never a power-puncher (Sonny fell on purpose), Ali had enough power to get respect, especially with his "classic right hand."
About the Ali shining while on spotlight, that was to counter the Holmes Rumble in the Jungle Gym sparring sessions. heheh Fights are TOTALLY different than sparring matches.
How did boxing training change in the years that seperated Holmes and Ali?...how much better trained was Holmes than Ali?....do you realize that in Holmes early years he was a sparring partner for Ali?...While I'd enjoy pointing out that your argument for bigger is better of today is severely flawed, it really has no relavence for this topic, at all...Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
he could dance very well when he had to holmes had some power aswell ask mike weaver marvis fraizer gerry cooney ect i know fights are different to sparring but i was just saying holmes was getting better of him in sparring yep ali had great jab but holmes jab was harder and sharper he actually knocked someone down with a jab actually there wasnt alot in speed department holmes had quick hands aswell look how fast his hands were in 1st shavers fight holmes had very good right hand himselfQuote:
Originally Posted by Gyrokai
So what your saying is Holmes is a better version of Ali, because his Jab took him places Ali could only dream? ;D
Holmes barely got past an old OLD Norton! (Just as some think Ali lost to Norton, ASLO some think Holmes lost too.)
Holmes was knocked on his *ss by Ernie Shavers. heh Old Ernie couldn't put Ali down, even in Ali's Late Late career with a hint of Parkinsons' in his voice! (That's not a joke either about the voice.)
Holmes fought competitively with Cooney! haha (Although he then found his rhythm again.)
no im pointing out a fact that holmes had better jab than him and there wasnt much between them in any department he wasnt that old and alot of people think norton should beat ali twice because norton was robbed in 3rd fight and actually holmes won norton fight by 2 rounds shavers was devasting puncher he caught holmes with his best right hand im suprised holmes managed to get up after that norton fought his heart out in that fight with holmes prolly one of nortons best performances shavers couldnt put ali down but he had him wobbling and rocking alot in early rounds and alot of people thought shavers should of won against ali cooney wasnt bad fighter he was very strong manQuote:
Originally Posted by Gyrokai
and plus before norton fought holmes norton was coming off beating jimmy young and young was good fighter he beat foreman. norton had also tko 38-0 duane bobick in 1 round and just losing razor thin decision to ali which many thought norton was robbed so u cant say norton was old he was still very good fighter which showed in his performance against holmes
Just so you know, Shavers admitted his defeat after years of denile.
:coolclick: Though, I can agree somewhat with yah.
Ali did hate jabs. ;) Hint hint! To his weakness, which I know because
there was a period of my life were I was obsessed with Ali's tapes, history, fighting style, etc.
(He or his story actually got me into boxing and the fighting sport.)
But Ali came out of the impossible so many times in his career that it would
be wise to bet on him when the stakes were against.
Holmes commanded his division, as did Ali, but Ali led the
deepest division in Heavyweight History, which continues to be
and perhaps will always be.
I still can't see Holmes winning.
Where Holmes squeaked by, Ali dazzled, surprised, and Knocked 'em Out!
cc back mate i honestly believe its too close to call even though i said holmes would win sd i can easily see ali winning sd but which ever way it goes it would be great fight and close fightQuote:
Originally Posted by Gyrokai
Muhammed Ali kicks the shite out of Homles, Period!
no im sorry but it would never be easy for ali never on what basis do u believe he kicks shite out of holmes when holmes was almost equal with him in every department ?? yea i know ali fought better opp but holmes couldnt help it he was little to late to fight best of 70s but holmes was very good fighter and would give ali fitsQuote:
Originally Posted by cockey cockney
this is how i see it ALI VS HOLMES
FOOTWORK = ALI MAYBE BIT BETTER THAN HOLMES BUT HOLMES WAS STILL VERY GOOD
CHIN = BOTH HAD EXCELLENT CHINS MAYBE ABOUT EQUAL MAYBE ALI HAS EDGE BUT VERY VERY CLOSE
HEART = BOTH MEN HAD PLENTY OF THAT EQUAL AGAIN
JAB = ALI HAD GOOD JAB BUT HOLMES HAD BETTER ONE
SPEED = ABOUT EQUAL AGAIN BOTH ME WERE VERY QUICK
POWER = ALI HAD GOOD RIGHT HAND BUT SO DID HOLMES AND HOLMES HAD GOOD UPPERCUT VERY CLOSE
STAMINA= WELL ALI COULD GO 15 HARD ROUNDS BUT SO COULD HOLMES
DO U SEE WHAT IM SAYING NOW THERE ISNT MUCH IN IT NONE OF THEM WOULD DOMINATE EACHOTHER IT WOULD BE VERY CLOSE FIGHT
LArry holmes stamina wasnt as good as Alis ...he was a great great fighter but you see him VERY gassed at the end of his 15 round title fights like against norton and coony
Ali was ESPECIALY pre rope a dope Ali was still dancing circles in the 15 th ( like in the ernie terrel fight)
Ali really new how to let his hands go in the late rounds ...
i would have to say that ALi would win comfortably
yes he was gassed because him and norton threw about prolly close to 100 punches that 15th round i didnt see him gassed against cooney i see him knocking shit out of him in 13th round
ali would win in both cases. way more easy in the 60's
i dont understand why people think he could win easy he was knocked down and struggling against henry cooper so ur telling me holmes wouldnt give ali trouble and ali would win easy i dont think so  ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ds91
im not putting down ali hes great boxer one of favourtie but i disagree when people say hed win easy against holmes considering they have similarties
no shame getting floored as shavers is regarded by many as having the hardest punch of all timeQuote:
Originally Posted by Gyrokai
agreed and plus was hardest punch he could land and for holmes to get up from it was amazing 95 percent of hws would been koed from that blowQuote:
Originally Posted by warreng
Listen carefully boys and girls...........Holmes was on ESPN classic fights recently and told bert sugar and the rest of the peeps that ALI was the greatest and he would of beat everyone including himself in his prime. Holmes even said Ali would be Joe Louis because Joe Louis would not be able to land anything on Ali. thats just what holmes said on the show.
People give Ali a lot of props he wouldn't have received before his illness, I couldn't stand Ali when I was younger, the man was beaten By Norton 2 out of 3 in his prime, Frasier beat him, Jimmy Young absolutely outboxed and beat him easily just like he did with Foreman, Leon Spinks after 8 pro fights beat him, Cooper put him down, Ali's the greatest because he told you so and was colorful, he always pulled other fighters head down and tied them up or ran (Danced or Footwork) is what you guys call it, threw some pretty combos at the end of rounds to steal them when the other fighters fought the whole round as Ali did his dancing and running, He'd be real good on dancing with the stars in his prime. Ali may have won because the judges liked dancers and runners and they remember the combo's at the end of rounds, who cares about the first 2 min and 45 seconds of the rounds. Holmes on the other hand went out to fight every fight and thats what he did and did very well. You don't become #2 all time in heavyweight title defenses without being great at what you do, and close to 60 yrs old the man could probably still beat some of the contenders. From this I think you guys can see I think Holmes was the better fighter and would have beat Ali when they were both in their prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBESTP4P
I've watch the Cooper fight several times and yes early Ali wasn't dominating because Muhammad was just playing with him...the very next round after Ali was knocked down he punished Cooper severely, stopping Cooper...The problem Ali always had was carrying fighters, he wasn't a "bloodthirsty" fighter unless he was given good reason...Just watch Ali punish big Ernie Terrel who would easily be champ today, Ali just abused a highly skilled fighter because Terrel messed with him...Ali crushed a very good Jerry Quarry in his first fight back from a 2 year layoff for several reasons Ali had a huge chip on his shoulder...A motivate(prime) Ali was amazing...and would have destroyed Larry Holmes the 70's model that we saw against Foreman would have been a tough fight with a prime Larry...Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING