Creation vs Evolution

I thought this would be an interesting thread to start.

Personally having looked at the debate on and off for the past 10 years or so I have finally put myself in the creationist camp.

Not that I'm a churchgoer and don't have problems with some of what is written in the Bible, I do have problems with a lot of it.

It's just that examining closely the evidence for and against evolution has led me to conclude that it is simply not based on factual evidence and in fact is nothing more than an alternative religion, and based on faith as much as any other belief system.

That the universe must have been designed is what I believe but I'm interested to hear other people's views.

This could turn out to be an interesting thread and discussion I think.

I'll put up evidence's and such like later but for now I'll let everyone else discuss to get the ball rolling.

Oh god no! As if the 9/11 threads weren't enough :P

anotehr scurge of internet forums, the creation thread... :P

Seriously though, I was raised Christian but don't really even know what I beleive any more... I don't beleive that there is or isn't a god etc... ;)

My religion is called Confusedianity.

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Oh god no! As if the 9/11 threads weren't enough :P

anotehr scurge of internet forums, the creation thread... :P

Seriously though, I was raised Christian but don't really even know what I beleive any more... I don't beleive that there is or isn't a god etc... ;)

My religion is called Confusedianity.

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Personally I find it best to leave religion out of it completely and just examine the evidence.

I.e the fossil record, transistional fossils, gentetics etc, then it becomes an interesting topic.

For me it is never going to be proven how we got here, and ultimately it is a reliance for faith but after looking closely at the supposed evidences for evolution I have to say that they just arn't there.

OK here's my big problem with people who are sold on either

#1 No one was alive to know whether things evolved or it was the way the Bible said

#2 If everything evolved what did the first thing ever evolve from

So while I doubt the 100% literal translation of the Bible, I do think that we were created by something

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Originally Posted by Lyle

OK here's my big problem with people who are sold on either

#1 No one was alive to know whether things evolved or it was the way the Bible said

#2 If everything evolved what did the first thing ever evolve from

So while I doubt the 100% literal translation of the Bible, I do think that we were created by something

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I love your number 2 question!

So many people claim that evolution must be true because 'Where did God come from?', but I never thought to say to someone 'Well where did the first thing that evolved, evolve from?'

That's brillaint mate, basically the evolutions have exactly the same impossible beginning that people who believe in God do.

The only difference is that a creationist can point out that since God created the universe and exists outside of it then he is not bound by the same laws. i.e creating is what God does, it is an action of God and so obviously therefore he does not need to be created, he is the creator not part of creation.

Evolutionists however cannot invoke the supernatural or posit any kind of existence outside of the universe so their answer lies within the universe itself.

And it is a whole lot harder to suggest how the universe could have created itself than it is to say somebody or something outside of the universe created it.

:coolclick: for a great argument

  I do not enjoy talking about this, but....


  If we evolved from apes why are their still apes wandering around?  Some of them said "I don't like were this is going" and decided not to change?

  Creation. Mos Def


And if they could just choose to "not evolve" then wouldn't there be some ape/man hybrids of every stage running about? How do you explain the different races? Asians have narrow eyes, right? If it was eveolution shouldn't the desert dwelling people have the narrow eyes? To keep the sand out. Seriously.

Creation. Evolution is impossible.

I can't even take someone seriously if they defend evolution. To me you have to WANT to believe it.

There is tons of evidence against evolution and none for it, and people call it science. It is 100% a religious belief.

I hold a Biblical world view but that is a whole different topic. Creation is the only possibility.

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Creation. Evolution is impossible.

I can't even take someone seriously if they defend evolution. To me you have to WANT to believe it.

There is tons of evidence against evolution and none for it, and people call it science. It is 100% a religious belief.

I hold a Biblical world view but that is a whole different topic. Creation is the only possibility.

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Friend welcome to my world :coolclick:

I was expecting to be lampooned when I started this topic but it seems suprisingly that most people agree.

I studied evolution for years, purely because I wanted to learn about it and understand the evidence for it. It never occured to me at that time that God may have created the world and I certainly wasn't looking to believe in him.

I remember reading for about 6 months, book after book, trying to find actual documented evidence for it but all the time all I ever found was crappy statements that always started, Imagine this and Let's assume this and then we can understand how this could come to be type statements.

I started reading books on fossils and human evolution to find what the missing links were, only to find to my shock that there wern't any that anybody agreed upon, even the evolutionists.

Then I looked for transitional fossils in the animal kingdoms and found 1, the fabled archeopteryx, only to find that it was actually 100% a bird, fully capable of flight and not actually half dinosaur in the way I had always assumed. It had teeth, but only in the minds of an evolutionist can having teeth be proof of a reptilian ancestory.

A platypus has a beak but they don't think it evolved from ducks!

:coolclick: to you too boxingGorilla

I agree with ya Bilbo about the platypus duck thing...

If it works why change it? Four fingers and a thumb was a brilliant idea so He used it a few times.

One more thing...

When I was young they used to say that humans did not need the pinky finger. I was told (in science class) that it would continue to grow smaller from lack of use and eventually baboes would be born without them. I'm 31 years old now and never seen a pinkiless baby that the doctors didn't call deformed. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

I agree with ya Bilbo about the platypus duck thing...

If it works why change it? Four fingers and a thumb was a brilliant idea so He used it a few times.

One more thing...

When I was young they used to say that humans did not need the pinky finger. I was told (in science class) that it would continue to grow smaller from lack of use and eventually baboes would be born without them. I'm 31 years old now and never seen a pinkiless baby that the doctors didn't call deformed. Seriously.

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I remember my teacher trying to explain the evolution of ape fur into human hair.

I asked him seeing as human hair if left just gets ridiculously long whether or not the evolution of human head and facial hair coincided with the invention of scissors?

Can you just imagine all these little early humans running around with beards and hair down to their ankles. Every time they tried to light a fire they would kill everyone in the cave :P

I have a similair background. I swallowed the evolution theory hook line and sinker for most of my life. I was seeking to disprove the creation theory, and suprise, the evolution story is ridiculous. I wasn't too happy with my findings at first, but now I understand that I was indoctrinated to learn that garbage.

There are so many evidences against it, but my favorite is "irreducable complexity". Basically that when you remove certain parts they cease to function all together. It really destroys the whole evolution theory. What good would a half functioning eye be? How about a half functioning digestive system?

The transitional species would die off without being able to reproduce, therefore completely halting "evolution".

The sad thing is people will angrily defend this nonsense idea, ignore all common sense, and label you as a bigot or fanatic for believing it. But once you see it you can never understand how anyone couldn't get it. Kind of like one of those illusion pictures they used to have in the mall, you had to stare at it for awhile, but once you saw it it was so easy, and your trying to show your buddy and no matter how you explain it, they don't see it... ???

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

I have a similair background. I swallowed the evolution theory hook line and sinker for most of my life. I was seeking to disprove the creation theory, and suprise, the evolution story is ridiculous. I wasn't too happy with my findings at first, but now I understand that I was indoctrinated to learn that garbage.

There are so many evidences against it, but my favorite is "irreducable complexity". Basically that when you remove certain parts they cease to function all together. It really destroys the whole evolution theory. What good would a half functioning eye be? How about a half functioning digestive system?

The transitional species would die off without being able to reproduce, therefore completely halting "evolution".

The sad thing is people will angrily defend this nonsense idea, ignore all common sense, and label you as a bigot or fanatic for believing it. But once you see it you can never understand how anyone couldn't get it. Kind of like one of those illusion pictures they used to have in the mall, you had to stare at it for awhile, but once you saw it it was so easy, and your trying to show your buddy and no matter how you explain it, they don't see it... ???

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Great analogy, I agree completely.

What finally made me think the whole lot was crap was after reading Dawkins and his neo Darwin theories about tiny incremental changes, gradually occurring over hundreds of thousands of years that would lead to one organism developing into another.

Then I started reading Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldridge, two of the biggest evolutionary proponents in the US. Their theory of 'puncuated equilibriem' states that organisms don't change gradually over millions of years at all, but rather remain unchanged for aeons of time and then in some isolated population somewhere an organism will undergo extreme and rapid mutatations over just a few generations and a new organism will emerge.

They produced this theory to explain why there are no transitional ( in between) fossils in the fossil record at all. They argued (correctly) that gradual evolution was impossible as there is not a shred of evidence in the fossil record to support it, each creature emerges spontanously in the fossil record, complete and fully formed leaving no trace of any evolutionaryt ancestory.

Then the likes of Dawkins, who are experts in genetics, hit back and said (correctly) that no such rapid change could possibly occur within the genetic structure of an organism in such a small space of time. The processes of even a single cell are so complex that the amount of new informtation required in the genetic structure of an organism's DNA to recode new structures is immense and no satisfactory mechanism relying on chance and mutation alone could possibly account for it.

It's a little known fact in the world at large that these two evolutionary camps radically oppose each other arguing for the impossibility of the other's theory.

I created the earth, the skies and the Universe. All the creatures on the planet were created by me, though they have since evolved into different forms which are more pleasing to me.

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Originally Posted by X

I created the earth, the skies and the Universe. All the creatures on the planet were created by me, though they have since evolved into different forms which are more pleasing to me.

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...and ya still can't get laid







sorry dude you set it up I had to

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by X

I created the earth, the skies and the Universe. All the creatures on the planet were created by me, though they have since evolved into different forms which are more pleasing to me.

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...and ya still can't get laid







sorry dude you set it up I had to

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It's true. Sadly all of my creations were an attempt to get laid, but once I granted consciousness, they all cut and run

I can totally see that happening

Girl - "Ummm, yeah thanks for creating me and all but I just don't want to get involved with my creator...everythings fine now, sure, but if I piss you off there are plagues and all to go through...it's just not worth it, we can still be friends though"

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I can totally see that happening

Girl - "Ummm, yeah thanks for creating me and all but I just don't want to get involved with my creator...everythings fine now, sure, but if I piss you off there are plagues and all to go through...it's just not worth it, we can still be friends though"

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I think it was when HE told off Adam and Eve for wearing clothes that they both got a little freaked out.

Being ordered to take her clothes off and then being given a death sentance for eating a piece of fruit from a tree probably ruined his chances of getting laid by Eve I think.

If it happened today God would have had a restraining order put on him, and been charged with indecent behaviour :P

And when He committed mass murder "and the angel of the Lord walked through the Assyrian camp and killed one hundred and fifty thousand of them. And when they awaoke the next morning they found all the bodies"

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Originally Posted by X

And when He committed mass murder "and the angel of the Lord walked through the Assyrian camp and killed one hundred and fifty thousand of them. And when they awaoke the next morning they found all the bodies"

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Guess God doesn't like the sand-niggers either ;)

Nope he sure doesn't...and Allah doesn't like WASPs.....the bastard

do yuo guys really think the earliest humans, ie, adam and eve, looked exactly like we do?

Primative species lived. There's genetic proof of evolution. It would be stupid to think that we came from two lone people that were exactly like us.

Having said, that, I believe we were created from earlier forms, that there is a God and his hand lead evolution. so while I think we evolved, it was God that made it happen.

adam and ever were a parable representing the beginning in a way we could comprehend. They are a representation of the earliest humans God created.

If Adam and Eve were the first humans, and they had two sons (Cain and Abel) - how did Cain and Abel have their children?


EEEWWWWW

that's a key question that even the best theologians can't answer. It also said that God would protect him and his wife from the others. Where'd she come from? Aren't there only suposed to be 4 total? and where did the others come from? Who are they?

See, I believe the Bible tells a story that picks up where it would have left off if a previous chapter had been written. Thus, the story of Adam and Eve aren't part of the VERY beginning, but God made them the main characters and starts the story there.

Primative species lived. There's genetic proof of evolution. It would be stupid to think that we came from two lone people that were exactly like us.

There is no genetic proof of evolution. 0 none zip zero. Even the evolutionists agree they have 0 evidence. It is entirely speculation, and they have proven much of the so called evidence to be fakes. Every "caveman" species has been 100% proven to be faked. The museums and textbooks never point this out though.

Actually the Bible says the opposite is happening, we are getting worse, not better, we have drastically shorter lifespans etc... Adam and Eve lived over 900 years. The account of their geneology only tells about some of them. It doesn't say that Cain and Able were the only children. It specifically says they had sons and daughters. How many kids can you have in 900 years???

think what you want. linking us to apes is a basic third year genetics lecture.

as a matter of fact, they just founds the remains of a girl who had skeletal structures consistent with both apes and humans. guess you missed it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060920/...ia_fossil_dc_1

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Originally Posted by Von Milash

think what you want. linking us to apes is a basic third year genetics lecture.

as a matter of fact, they just founds the remains of a girl who had skeletal structures consistent with both apes and humans. guess you missed it.

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News reports regularly feature evolutionary “missing link” stories, as evidence of either human or animal evolution. Piltdown man, Neanderthal man, Cro-magnon man, Java man, “Lucy,” Ramapithecus, Nebraska man, the Tourmai fossil … have all been touted as “missing links” at some time. Nebraska man was a pig's tooth, Piltdown man was a fraud, and the others are either human or ape — not “missing links.”

The new one will most likely suffer the same fate. It is ironic how whenever a "missing link" is found they publish it immediately and never correct it when it doesn't hold under scrutiny. It is very sad that a third year genetics lecture would be based upon false information. Anyone who presents evolution as anything other than a theory is completely lying. There is no solid evidence.

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Originally Posted by Von Milash

that's a key question that even the best theologians can't answer. It also said that God would protect him and his wife from the others. Where'd she come from? Aren't there only suposed to be 4 total? and where did the others come from? Who are they?

See, I believe the Bible tells a story that picks up where it would have left off if a previous chapter had been written. Thus, the story of Adam and Eve aren't part of the VERY beginning, but God made them the main characters and starts the story there.

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Ok I'll try and answer all of the questions that you posed.

First of all that Adam and Eve could not be true. Why not? Even if you believe purely in athiestic evolution there still had to be the first something right? Your belief that everything evolved from something before it still only leads you so far. Eventually you are going to have to go back to the very first single cell that somehow spontaneously popped into existence, amazingly not only managing to survive in this hostile hell hole with not a single other lifeform on the entire planet but even more amazingly managed to make a perfect duplicate copy of itself, which in turn also survived to make another perfect copy and then a few of these copies then decided to join together forming a group of cells and then replicated themselves again.

Of course this now means that life must be busy evolving on the moon as we speak seeing as mankind visited bringing all kinds of bacteria's with them. Somewhere on the moon they must be a little dust footstep that's just teaming with life and if left alone for a few million years will suddenly turn into some kind of moondust eating sand burrowing creature.

In fact it's amazing that modern medicane works at all when you consider that these 'cells' are just popping into existence all of the time. Sorry, whats that you say, they dont pop into existence any more? Oh ok so it just happened the one time only, 3.8 billion years ago, and amazingly this little cell guy really had a lucky streak, not only staying alive but evolving into everything on earth! Just imagine, seeing as he was the only lifeform ever to spontaneously appear in all of time how lucky it was that he made it!

Surely it's much easier to believe the whole of just one single species can be traced back to a single couple, than it is to believe every living thing on earth can be traced back to one single cell?

Eventually this little cell all on it's own had evolved to become every living piece of flora, fauna, bacteria and virus on the planet. You could say the boy done good!

As for suggesting it would be stupid to suggest we all came from one woman, I guess you are unaware that science now actually agrees! Do a google search for the Eve hypothesis and you will learn how mitochondrial DNA has been traced back to it's earliest source, a single women living in the remote past, that's not me talking, that is what science now knows to be true!

Of course you will also now that regarding the naming of Adam and Eve, Adam is taking from the Hebrew word Adamah which literally means 'ruddy, and of the soil', referring to Adam being composed of the dust of the earth, another proven scientific truth as well.

Eve, literally means, 'the mother of all living', which again as mitochondrial dnd research by evolutionists has revealed is also true.

Regarding Cain finding a wife, this is really no difficulty whatsoever. Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters so Cain simply would have married his own sister.

This may sound immorral or abhorrent to us living now but as evolutionists will tell you, isolated populations always interbreed, and at the beginning of creation conditions very likely were very different from today so this is really not a question at all.

It's also interesting to note that when you actually look at what we absolutely know as historical fact, the bible is not at variance with any of it but evolution has major hurdles to overcome.

Firstly take the age of man. According to the bible humans have been around for several thousand years, maybe 10000, according to science homo sapien's our species has been around for as long as 250,000 years with the oldest anatomically modern human, so a man in the modern sense being 190,000 years.

Yet civilisation's go back only 6 thousand years or so, incidently about the same time as the bible says 8 people got off of the ark.

Evolutionists have to provide a satisfactory answer as to why, if completely modern humans, identical to ourselves with the same brain and intelligence have been around for 200,000 years, did they only decide 6000 years ago, 'You know what, this living in caves lark is S***, lets go build us a city!'.

How can you possibly explain a 200,000 year gap where modern humans did absolutely F*** all, and then overnight suddenly developed civilisations all over the world?

Interestingly why do population growth charts for humans only go back to around 8000 years? I guess for the first 200,000 years they decided to keep their numbers real small becuase they only had so much room in their cave's, then when they built cities they thought, 'You know waht we can start having children now,!' ;)

As regards your story of the baby 'girl' this is completely misleading. The naming of the fossil and calling it a 'girl' gives a completely misleading picture that this baby was just like us.

Of course the Australopithecines were actually fully apes, with the fact as to whether or not they were bipedel still being debated to this day. There is no suggestion if you actually study the evolutionary literature to suggest this actually looked even remotely like a modern human.

Impressive post for a hobbit ;D ;D

You know your stuff brother.

In addition to civilizations going back less than 10,000 years. So are the oldest known desert (which grows every year) , and the oldest trees.

Another very damaging problem for the millions of year old Earth, is the fact that the rotation of the Earth is slowing down. If you take the rate of decline and multiply it by anything more than 10,000 years, you come up with a figure that would cause the Earth to have such a high rate of rotation that the gravity would be too strong for any life to have evolved.

Guess that's what happened to the dinosaurs..... They got squished to death.... :-X

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Impressive post for a hobbit ;D ;D

You know your stuff brother.

In addition to civilizations going back less than 10,000 years. So are the oldest known desert (which grows every year) , and the oldest trees.

Another very damaging problem for the millions of year old Earth, is the fact that the rotation of the Earth is slowing down. If you take the rate of decline and multiply it by anything more than 10,000 years, you come up with a figure that would cause the Earth to have such a high rate of rotation that the gravity would be too strong for any life to have evolved.

Guess that's what happened to the dinosaurs..... They got squished to death.... :-X

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Ha, don't even get me started on the dinosaurs!

How the evolutinary community has managed to cover up the co-existence of man and dinosaurs is so completely beyond me it's untrue!

We all grow up learning about dragons and strange lizard and reptile beasts, legend past down from generation to generation from practically ever race of people's on earth.

They dig up pieces of pottery with dinosaurs on them, dinosaurs are carved into ancient buildings, found in cave art, tapestries, anicent writings, every bloody where yet scientists have managed to make people believe that dinosaurs died out 65,000,000 years ago and that the tales of encounters between men and dragons are just fanciful myths.

The funniest thing I ever read was when one evolutionist claimed that Herodotus was clearly familiar with the fossil record as he reported sightings of flying pterydactuls that matched precisely the way that scientists have reconstructed them! ???

I guess the person who was responsible for carving a stegasauros onto wall pillar in the temple of Angkor Watt some 900 years ago was clearly an amatuer palaeontologist too!

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Originally Posted by bilbo

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Originally Posted by X

And when He committed mass murder "and the angel of the Lord walked through the Assyrian camp and killed one hundred and fifty thousand of them. And when they awaoke the next morning they found all the bodies"

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Guess God doesn't like the sand-niggers either ;)

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LMFAO ! ;) O0

:rasta: I think we are alittle bit of everything :rasta: and a whole lot of nothing :rasta: O0

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Originally Posted by Lords Gym

:rasta: I think we are alittle bit of everything :rasta: and a whole lot of nothing :rasta: O0

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Interestingly in relation to the nothing.......

Did you know you lose a little weight when you die? Science can't figure out why. I am not talking about your bowels releasing, you literally lose approximately 2 lbs. when you die.

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

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Originally Posted by Lords Gym

:rasta: I think we are alittle bit of everything :rasta: and a whole lot of nothing :rasta: O0

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Interestingly in relation to the nothing.......

Did you know you lose a little weight when you die? Science can't figure out why. I am not talking about your bowels releasing, you literally lose approximately 2 lbs. when you die.

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:rasta: luvfightgame your exactly right, I think that 2 lbs would be your cosmic energy or Ora if you will , being lifted out of the body at the time of death and re deposited or recycled into the universe ! :rasta:

Another interesting fact....

Universe

uni= single

Verse= spoken word.

We live within a single spoken word..... :o

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Another interesting fact....

Universe

uni= single

Verse= spoken word.

We live within a single spoken word..... :o

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Ok I know we are both on the same side but your last two statements were both a little wacko to me? :P

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Another interesting fact....

Universe

uni= single

Verse= spoken word.

We live within a single spoken word..... :o

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:rasta: "well said " :shocking: very very deep my brother :rasta:

I beleive when your spirit leaves your body it has a weight. Medically they know we lose approx. 2.7 lbs. when you die.

Universe being a single spoken word.....

Let there be......

I believe the creation was spoken into existince. As evidenced by the Biblical account and also the word that we use to describe our creation. I think it is ironic when evolutionists use the word universe.

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

I beleive when your spirit leaves your body it has a weight. Medically they know we lose approx. 2.7 lbs. when you die.

Universe being a single spoken word.....

Let there be......

I believe the creation was spoken into existince. As evidenced by the Biblical account and also the word that we use to describe our creation. I think it is ironic when evolutionists use the word universe.

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I see what you are saying, although I'm not at all sure that the word 'universe' means the same in every language although I may be wrong.

It is ironic however that evolutionists Crick and Watson in discovering DNA learned that we are literally programmed in such a way as they are able to decipher it and turn us into a genetic code complete with word, sentences and paragraphs.

Truly by the word of God we are and were created!

Really interesting thread cc Bilbo, I'm also in the creation camp but to play devil's advocate for a minute...

If we were created why could our creator not use evolution to improve on their creation? Oh yes, no evidence, fair enough but think about maths problems, did you always show your working or sometimes did you not just come up with the answer itself therfore making it impossible for anyone else to prove how you reached the answer? Perhaps our creator just didn't show his workings...