Been watching Ray Robinson videos and...

Ok so I've watched a fair share of his fights, and how can a person say he would still be great today if he was fighting? Sure in his day he was great, but he is flawed in so many obvious ways I was shocked at how people still say he had great defense and the like... First I watched Lamotta fight where at times Lamotta would land 4-5punch combinations on Robinson... I saw no tricky footwork I saw no ability to counter of the ropes without reckless abandon. Sure Ray had all the skills for his time heart, speed, power, but he isn't as fast as Roy Jones or Mayweather, Mosley, etc. He could throw big combinations, but nobody put their hands up back then... It would be like hitting a back... when Ray would hit somebody with his first punch their immediat response was to punch back instead of covering up. His timing was nothing special. I could expect other places to say overexaggerate his ability in less knowledgeble forums, but never here. I think people who say he is p4p the greatest ever should watch his fights again from a non-biased point of few then say if his defenses measure up to the likes of Mayweather or WHitaker... if his combinations where as quick and deadly as Leonard, Mosley, Taylor, or most of all Jones.

:coolclick: for having the b*lls to challenge the system!

Wish I could study Ray Robinson! I would too.
I have this feeling you are right. BUT it was a different time then.
Boxing was different... for obvious reasons.
But you may be wrong.
I've heard a nice metaphor...

"Ray Robinson is to Floyd Mayweather;
Is Miles Davis is to Snoop Dog."

haha, ... Well, it means that you may be a fan of music today
and wanted to learn more, so you go back and find out about
Miles Davis. And at first glance, or hear, you don't like the music,
it sounds crude, archaic, and old fashioned. But the more you
listen to it the more you appreciate it. I hear that the same
goes for Sugar Ray Robinson.

I am pretty sure I watched all his pictured fights... my friend bought his collection..., but though I can acknowledge how truly dominant he was at his time... alot of the new technique and the like hadn't been thought of yet back then.

well he's the greatest of all time because of how much more advanced he was than the all the rest...yes i agree that if you took him or any of the so-called goats and put them in the ring with todays fighter they'd be slaughtered..but ray robinson's career spanded almost 30 years...and 15 of his 19 losses came after he was 36, 11 of them after he was forty he also won fighter of the year in three different decades...yeah pbf and roy would probably beat him but i don't think they could take as much punishment as ray could, not to mention that he was fast enough to catch them...and if anyone wants to know how he would look today just check out prime shane mosley and you'll have a pretty close idea of how ray would have faired today..and shane at lightweight was unstoppable 38-0-35 his losses are only due to being in the wrong weight class had he stayed at light weight his record would be ridculous 60-0-55 or something like that....

If Mayweather had as many fights as Robinson, im sure his timing and speed wouldnt be as it is.

Im sure if Mosley fought as many rounds as Robinson had, im sure his career would be over by now.

Robinson did it all in excess compared with todays fighters.

Thats something i think your overlooking.

dude you were doing fine until you mentioned Taylor, no way in hell does Jermain Taylor match up with Ray Robinson, Taylor's defense is shit, and he doesn't seem to have the greatest chin ever either

Robinson was at his best at welterweight. We have no footage of him at welterweight.

His middleweight venture was just the icing on the cake..

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

dude you were doing fine until you mentioned Taylor, no way in hell does Jermain Taylor match up with Ray Robinson, Taylor's defense is S***, and he doesn't seem to have the greatest chin ever either

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No way in hell, man! Nice that you caught that.
Also, I'm sure YOU disagree with this but I hate the fact that many
fans think Jones Jr. is the end all be all of styles, when it's blatant it is NOT.
"most of all Jones."

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Originally Posted by WWatt

Robinson was at his best at welterweight. We have no footage of him at welterweight.

His middleweight venture was just the icing on the cake..

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The exact point i was going to make have a :coolclick:

I don't agree that styles and technique have really evolved much, or evolved in a positive way, look at a lot of the great defensive fighters of our time. Winky's kind of an anomaly really with his high guard, most of the best defensive fighters, Hopkins, Toney and Mayweather use defensive styles that have been around. The shoulder roll and pull counters are not new at all, watching a lot of old fighters their head and upperbody movement is very impressive. Watch some Ezzard Charles fights, great at slipping punches, its who Toney says he based his style off of. Or a little more recent, a guy like Niccolino Loche. Now strength training, athletic training in general has improved without a doubt but I don't see some huge improvement in technique training, there are so many shit defensive fighters these days.

also another big thing that has changed is different types of styles being used by different countries, Mexican Fighters used to = Brawlers, and now some of the greatest boxers and techinicians in the lower classes come from Mexico

Training and techniques have advanced and evolved. Robinson was the stand out talent of his generation and if were alive today it would most likely be the same thing... we would see a slightly different, tighter fighter but you are born with talent... and that is what the guy had... ;)

It's sort of like saying that because scientists have made more complex discoverys than Einstien had that they are better Scientists than he was...

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Training and techniques have advanced and evolved. Robinson was the stand out talent of his generation and if were alive today it would most likely be the same thing... we would see a slightly different, tighter fighter but you are born with talent... and that is what the guy had... ;)

It's sort of like saying that because scientists have made more complex discoverys than Einstien had that they are better Scientists than he was...

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:coolclick: !!!!! :D :D :D

Here we gooooo!!!

The battle of the Physicists! "LETS GET READY TO INTEGRALLL!!!!"

Einstein vs Witten, :boxing:
Edward Witten had the intelligence to beat Albert, but Good Al
had too much imagination and catches Witten by surprise majority "nobel prize" decision.

Einstein vs Steven Hawking, :boxing:
Einstein wins by early sweet "science" stoppage!
Hawking made a career using Einstein's style!

Einstein vs Weinberg, :boxing:
Mr. E=mc2 would have definitely clobbered Steven Weinberg by late KO!
Weinberg didn't stand out enough during his reign, to be dominant over Al.

Einstein vs Feynman, :boxing:
Richard Feynman would have gave Einstein all he could have handled.
Could have gone either way in my opinion. Feynman had too much
longevity too be stopped!

Einstein vs Newton, :boxing:
Newton takes it too him and wins by MKO or Mathematical Knockout!
He was just too smart in both Mathematics and Physics.

hahaha... cc ;D

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Ok so I've watched a fair share of his fights, and how can a person say he would still be great today if he was fighting? Sure in his day he was great, but he is flawed in so many obvious ways I was shocked at how people still say he had great defense and the like... First I watched Lamotta fight where at times Lamotta would land 4-5punch combinations on Robinson... I saw no tricky footwork I saw no ability to counter of the ropes without reckless abandon. Sure Ray had all the skills for his time heart, speed, power, but he isn't as fast as Roy Jones or Mayweather, Mosley, etc. He could throw big combinations, but nobody put their hands up back then... It would be like hitting a back... when Ray would hit somebody with his first punch their immediat response was to punch back instead of covering up. His timing was nothing special. I could expect other places to say overexaggerate his ability in less knowledgeble forums, but never here. I think people who say he is p4p the greatest ever should watch his fights again from a non-biased point of few then say if his defenses measure up to the likes of Mayweather or WHitaker... if his combinations where as quick and deadly as Leonard, Mosley, Taylor, or most of all Jones.

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Crap!!
I think we should re-write the history of boxing cause this isn't gonna work out. ???
Guess we've ALL been wrongfuly directed or told to believe SRR is the best P4P, and at his best he was unbeatable.
damn!! that Bert Sugar and his cigar.... >:mad fwocken liar.


Just joking around with 'ya Taeth.... :) In all seriousness though,
I admire that you stepped out and gave us your thoughts but you should really look more into it. Theres more to it then just looking at videos, what about the names he faced, what about the number of fights he had, what about how often he fought, what about how many loses he had thats right loses compared to number of fights.
His pro debut was 10-4-1940 you wanna when his next fight was? It was 4 days later. His last fight was 11-10-1965 thats 35 yrs.
Shet!!! Baseball or Football players don't have those kind of numbers.

So you say Sugar had poor defense, bad footwork, no counter, Well I can tell you that even todays fighters if you were to put them in the ring back then they wouldn't do so well either I don't care how much speed RJJ has, PBF or Mosely.
Fucken rugged fighters from back then would get away with a lot of shit!! in the ring if you've seen the footage then you know what I'm talking about. So you see I don't fully agree on this whole thing about if so and so fought today or whatever cause you can only speculate.
But what really made this thread like a 'Twilight Zone' type of thing was Taylors name in the same breath as SRR that right there just did it for me.

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Originally Posted by WWatt

Robinson was at his best at welterweight. We have no footage of him at welterweight.

His middleweight venture was just the icing on the cake..

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We who? You got a turd in your pocket???

[youtube=425,350]gx8pRGjVvio[/youtube]

I've seen PLENTY of Robinson....3 fights vs Lamatta...but my favorites are the Basillio and Maxim fights....Joey Maxim and Carmen Basillio are SOOO underrated and those fights were BRUTAL...in the Maxim fight the REF passed out due to heat exhaustion....the fuckin REF

I love Joey Maxim's remarks abotu Ray saying if it wasn't for the heat he would have won....Joey said "Did it look like I had air conditioning in my corner?"

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I love Joey Maxim's remarks abotu Ray saying if it wasn't for the heat he would have won....Joey said "Did it look like I had air conditioning in my corner?"

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It did look like he was getting his ass royally handed to him by a far superior fighter who was naturally 30 lbs lighter, and in any modern contest they would have gone to the scorecards. But w/e.

Well yeah but Robinson was just that good...Maxim ended up doing well for himself he's one of the better light heavyweights in history.

Basillio was just a beast...he was like an All-Time Great version of Arturo Gatti....he wasn't really gifted but he wouldn't give up and he fought like hell