i say mike tyson by 10 ko, louis was not a stick and move champion, which is the only kind who could beat a prime tyson(other than foreman). i think a prime tyson would run right through louis
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i say mike tyson by 10 ko, louis was not a stick and move champion, which is the only kind who could beat a prime tyson(other than foreman). i think a prime tyson would run right through louis
A PRIME Tyson on his night, runs right through any heavyweight in history IMO. I really think he was unstoppable.
im not going start another debate but he was not unstoppable nowhere near it and that showed against james tillis + tony tucker + buster douglasQuote:
Originally Posted by cockey cockney
true stick and move boxers could beat tyson and guys with granite chins that could take tysons punches and fire back aka holyfield 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by undefeated
Would they be using 6oz gloves like Louis used or 10oz gloves like Tyson used?That makes a huge difference.
Tyson would have crushed Louis in 3. Louis was too small; remember the heavyweight of his day was much smaller than in more recent years. Louis didn't have Tyson's speed or his power.
And Tyson was in his prime, but in improper physical condition and lacking the right people in his corner when he lost to Douglas and Holyfield the first time. His fault for not taking them seriously, but had he Douglas would have been crushed and Holyfield would have had more trouble than he did. I still say both fighters should have been fined or whatever for the 2nd. Holyfield and that '3rd punch' of his...
tyson took holyfield seriously he didnt take douglas seriously but douglas was excellent that night anyway even tyson in his peak condition would of struggled against that douglas even in tysons peak condition he struggled against tony tucker and james tillis and why should of both fighters been fined ??Quote:
Originally Posted by liquid
and im not hating tyson i think he is good fighter but overrated
tyson would take louis out very early,he was to small to compete with tyson ,he is not a true HW by todays standards...i couldnt be bothered going into detail about this because it is so stupid!....but tyson would kill little joe louis
Any top 10 All-Time great heavyweight beats Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by cockey cockney
Now I'm not going to dismiss what you said but I just disagree, that is all
The size difference is kinda irrelevent really. Better diet and nutrition and improved living standards mean people generally are bigger and taller today.Quote:
Originally Posted by liquid
If Joe Louis was born in the late 60's like Tyson he would probably have been slightly larger and if Tyson had been born in the early part of the 20th century like Louis he would likely be a fair bit smaller.
It's a close one to call for me. Tyson looked absolutely awesome against lesser men but he never looked great against a great fighter even once in his entire career.
Louis was a great champion but I feel slightly overrated. I can't imagine Lennox Lewis or George Forman for example having any trouble with Billy Conn and he did get dropped a few times in his career.
I'd go with a prime Tyson knocking him out early but if Louis survived the first 6 he very well may have stopped Tyson.
Would have been a great fight though.
an 11 count didn't hurt his cause either :PQuote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Tyson was fast, skilled and very powerful. There is no way you can overrate him in his prime. Against the all time greats of the heavyweight division he either beats them or gives them a run for their money. Wether you like him as a person or not you have to respect his former ability.
You haven't mentioned any fighters who have fought Prime Tyson except Tony Tucker... He easily mowed through Tillis, and Tucker was knocked around virtually ever round. The Tyson that fought Holyfield stopped using his head movement, and combination punches, he just came in with one punch and allowed Holyfield to counter him... same with the Tyson that fought Lewis and so on... When he fought Holmes who still had good footwork, and as deadly a jab as ever he easily avoided it, and he countered effectively... I say he beats Louis in 6 or less.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Tyson was all of the things you said, ...but!..he was alot of things you didn't mention, like when he faced a challange he failed every time. Once he become discouraged during a fight that he could not dictate he simply stopped fighting and just took a beating. Louis on the other hand, came back from knockdowns to crush opponents, watch his first fight with Jersey Joe Walcott who was a master boxer and who was beating the hell outta Louis who was just a shell of himself. Louis catches Walcott with a 6-7 punch combo at age 36 and the fight is over just that quick. Louis threw combinations of 7-8 punches that traveled 6"inches that put men in comas, he was just in another level when it came to punching power. I've seen films of all the great punchers Dempsey, Baer, Marciano, Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Louis was the only one that when he hit a man, they would lie twitching on the canvas, their bodies or their feet, not to mention the huge cuts and lumps on their faces in fights that only lasted 4-5 rds. Why do you think Ring Magazine named Louis the best puncher pound for pound in the last 75 years. I think a PRIME Joe Louis crushes a PRIME Mike Tyson....NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Guys, Louis was not that much smaller than Mike, if smaller at all. Tyson only weighed bout 208-212 at his best. Louis weighed a touch over 200 I believe. NOT that big of differnce. And Louis was a better boxer. However, he was Kayoed by Max Schemling. And he never faced an animal quite like Mike Tyson. So I would have to pick a prime Tyson, bobbing and weaving in and throwing deadly combos to Knock out Louis within the first 4 rounds. But Louis could out box Mike, and possibly stop him in the later rounds. Certainly Louis had the greater heart of the two, and boxing ability.
no he didnt tillis won 4 rounds so did tucker and i did hear tucker injured his right hand in training he gave tyson some troubles oh right so holmes at 38 still had great jab and good footwork no he didnt and he hadnt fought for two years see thats what i dont get people say holmes was quite good but tyson at what 24 or 23 was *out of his prime* watch 78 to 80 version of holmes then watch that holmes who had two weeks to train and ur see alot of difference and i mean hell of alot and still gave tyson some trouble until he got caught that night was nowhere a prime holmes plus holyfield was more out of his prime than tyson i wernt hearing when he crushed bruno and seldon that tyson was out of his prime no one give holyfield a chance because of his age plus of his heart problems year before tyson fight plus how shit he looked in 3rd bowe fightQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Your ignorant, I have watched Holmes on many nights and like when he fought Gerry Cooney and Shavers, and when he fought Tyson, and he was more or less the same Holmes... and he didn't do anything to Tyson he barely hit Tyson with ANY jabs which he had never had trouble landing on anyone before, and say what you want, but that was the same jab of the younger Holmes. Also in the Tellis fight some two of the judges scored it 6-4, but the other who got the most accurate score was 8-2... Mike Tyson was winning a larger percentage of the rounds in that fight. The tucker fight he dominated there are no two ways about it. As for Holyfield be old, thats all great and dandy, except he was in terrific shape when he fought Tyson, and Tyson was still physically in good shape, but it was his mind that was his enemy... That is a bigger factor than pretty much anything else in boxing. Tyson wasn't using any hit movement, or throwing combinations against Evander, and Evander was being cheap because ever time Tyson would get in and catch him off guard he would just hold Tyson, and when he was prepared then he would counter. Evander was special that night, but he wasn't holding he probably still would have lost the first night. As for the second fight Tyson had Evander hurt until Evander decided to headbutt Tyson blatantly which led to Tyson being a maniac. Also did Evander look like the man who fought Bowe in the third fight? NO so stop using that as an excuse. Evander was in prime shape, and he fought as well as he had ever foughten before then.
im ignorant yet ur one saying one that fought cooney + shavers is more or less same holmes at 38 ur stupid and what makes it laughable is that people say tysons out of his prime at 24 but yet holmes is more or less same at 38 .. plus holmes had two weeks to train and was ring rusty and still gave good account of himself holyfields always in good shape he looked in good shape for 3rd bowe fight but we all know what happened its not an excuse he was never quite the same after 3 rd bowe fight he didnt have same stamina or ect tyson threw combos against bruno in 2nd fight and so what if he had holyfield hurt in 2nd fight doesnt mean he would of won he had holyfield hurt in 1st fight in 5th round then holyfield knocked tyson on his a** next roundQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Tyson was starting to throw combinations in the second fight that he never did in the first fight... Why else would Holyfield resort to headbutts in that fight when he didn't in the first fight. Also, like I've said a million times Mike Tyson wasn't past his prime PHYSICALLY but he was mentally not in the sport, like other great fighters such as Zab Judah who could probably beat almost anyone today p4p except Mayweather if he had the mental fortitude to actually fight. Mike Tyson was totally different than the fighter pre-Douglas(which he came in out of shape, and was mentally not in the fight before it happened). So Tyson was already past his prime before he ever got out of jail. Even against Bruno in the second fight he showed little to no head movement, and his combinations were hesistant, and would have never gotten off against Holyfield who like I said before would tie up Tyson at the earliest oppertunity, and IMO should have had points taken away because he was fighting like Ruiz. I never said Holmes was in his prime when he fought Tyson, but he still had footspeed, and handspeed comparable to before, and most importantly his jab was the same. Now Roy JOnes Jr. is still exceptionally fast at 38, Ali kept alot of his handspeed when he got a little older. THe point is unlike at any other time in his career Larry Holmes had no chance against Tyson who was too fast, and too strong for him. Tyson also beat Spinks whom at least tied with a "better" Holmes than the one who faced Tyson.
And next time you call me stupid next time try and putting You're or you are stupid" instead of "ur stupid' because really doesn't demonstrate your wealth of intelligence to rest of us humble mortals.
ur calling me ignorant because im saying holmes wernt in his prime his handspeed was nowhere near the same thats why i called u stupid i apologize if i stepped out of line but all im saying that holmes was shadow of his former selfQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
And I disagree, I usually call people ignorant and the like not in anger so I also apologize because it is a better way to make people listen to what your saying. IMO Holmes didn't ever really lose the speed off his jab until much, much latter on.
Louis would of got his head knocked off by the bigger faster Tyson
Tyson wasn't bigger...Joe Louis was 6'2 and in his prime weighed a good 200 pounds...yeah Joe stood flat footed for the most part but he knew his range he had a good defense and he hit hard as hell.
I think Tyson has become vastly overrated and some people would pick him to beat George Foreman or Muhammed Ali or whoever just because he was "so fast" or Marciano and Dempsey because he was "so powerful"....I don't think Mike Tyson is an all-time great, and when I say that I mean he wouldn't beat any of those guys either.
The best fighter Mike Tyson could beat in the history of boxing would probably have to be Ken Norton or Gerry Cooney.
Even so Tyson for 3 rds would be a hhhhhhhhandfull for anybody. but with Mike who I like a lot probably had it all to soon plus all the problems that went with it
.....Joe Louis for 3 rounds was tough as well.....don't let color tv ruin it for you, Joe Louis was a baaaaaaad man.
On top of that Joe Louis was one of the best BOXERS ever to be heavyweight champ...so I don't think Mike Tyson would have been able to intimidate him or pummel him within the first couple of rounds. Even an OLD Joe Louis went pretty far with Rocky Marciano!
Joe Louis as CHAMPION had the bum of the month club...whereas Tyson as champion sat around and got ring rust
You don't get 25 successfull title defenses by being an average boxer!
Hmmm.. wellll......no disrespect to a guy with 187,054 post on the forum......BUT....Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
imo tyson D - st - roys Louis first round KO. i remember tyson against berbick. berbick was big strong all around really good fighter not a super star but very good. with a great chin! gone the distance with some good fighter and only one previous ko. tyson made him look like sh*t!
The old vs new is so hard just because all athletes are so much improved over the years. an Olympic gold medalist in 1950 wouldnt make a college track team today,and its true in EVERY sport. True holyfield handled tyson,but that doesnt make tyson less of an all time great (atg) it just makes evander one as well. True holmes was past it but still had the jab and again tyson murdered him. And holmes was considered an atg at the time. Now.....put louis in a time capsule...born same year as tyson...same nutrition and training.......then who knows.
I cant think af anyone tyson doesnt beat. maybe some would survive ie lose and not be KO'd but none to beat him in his top prime. mayeb foreman has a punchers chance because he was SOOO heavy handed but i dont think so.tyson too hard to hit ,too awkward, punches from odd crouch and moving posture too fast! I've re convinced myself! YEs he's a fool and a bum now....but in the day............flashback to berbick doin the chicken walk tryin to get up......sigh.........he was THE MAN
i'll try a cc for the 17.7 posts per day average you have!! :o 8) :boxingmatch: (hope those worked, im new here)
As a matter of fact its not trueTrack really took of after the 64 Oylimpics more people took up athletics. Thats when the money started coming in and something followed close behind plus tracks improved. Lyle I didnt say Tyson would beat him just said he would make it interesting with anyone. Youre right the camera does lie
yea but before tyson beat berbick in two someone had already beat berbick in one round and larry holmes won every round against berbickQuote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
ere are the figures I have for the 100 meter dash. I'm not takingQuote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
into account steriods, just the best times over the years.
Seconds Year
12 1896
10.8 1900
10.6 1924
10.3 1932
10.2 1960
10 1964
9.9 1968
9.84 1996
According to these records it appears than runners achieve a 2.16
second faster rate of speed every 100 years. based on this average
historical increase alone and assuming it will be consistent, and
calculating that increase from the slowest rate of 12 seconds, it
would seem that in approximately 500 years (from 1896)
ie 2396 a runner could run the 100 meter dash in zero
seconds flat!
I like how you did that even though its not the whole picture cc
I think some people tend to forget how good was our Joe Louis, he was a really really tough fighter complete boxer who was able to trade and had a really good punch. Hell Britkid could come out of his grave for denying Joe Louis that much ^^
Everyone seems to have a picture of him in these black and white movies...don't forget that Joe louis was tough, he worked long hours in a period of time where work was very painful to the body. He went to the gym and trained with the training methods of these years. A Joe louis of this era...would be a man doing pumping irons, dietetics training, improving boxing technics and so on....he would be then a lot stronger (ok I'm only speculate) but I like to take that into account...
Tyson is an all time great, sure, but he would have had many difficulties again Joe louis, Louis was tough and If I can see Tyson landing many combo during the 6 first rounds, I can see that Joe louis would trade and land strong jad or one two to tyson head...that after round six, I can see Joe louis trading big time against tyson the two being rocked several time.
Still Tyson bu UD I think in a very brutal war. Joe Louis being rocked many times in the fight and refusing to be KO'ed.
I Know, I'm a original ^^
Exactly SEB! CC
Joe Louis and the fighters of his era and before fought 15 rounders...and he carried his power for 15 rounds....Mike Tyson KO'd ONE fighter in the 10th round and he should have had him out of there a lot earlier!
Joe Louis KO'd guys in the 13th round!
As far as Tyson jumping on Joe right away.....do you think Tyson invented that? Was he the first person ever to do that? He might have been very good at it but Joe Louis was EXTREMELY good at winning!
People like Tyson because of the first round KO's but it's so easy to forget how bad Joe Louis busted Max Shmelling up so bad in their rematch....Tyson never did that to anyone!
I still don't see Tyson winning, especially a UD, he quits around round 7 vs anyone good
He "easily mowed through Tillis"? Tillis took 3 rounds out of 10. Holmes, old, over the hill Holmes? His jab was as deadly as ever? Wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Thanks for that Sean, I was starting to think Alzimers was starting to set in cc
Tyson was a force of nature in the 80's, he was a good trainer (just at the end of the Witherspoon, Tubbs etc fat guys era), he was mean and ruthless with great hanspeed, a deceptively good defence and excellent power. He intimidated his opponents before they even got into the ring. We all say his prime was short, but don't forget the guy has been around for about 20 years now!!!
It was later that he lost his head movement, didn't throw combinations and was always looking for the one-punch knockout. Only later did he ever really 'quit' fights because his heart was not in the sport anymore. Tyson's tragedy is that he was always a needy person who ended up being let down by everyone he ever trusted, and eventually began to hate the very thing that brought him fame and fortune.
Louis, however, was the complete fighting machine. he had an awesome jab, very solid technical skills, a good chin (but poor balance) - he was always in good shape as he was THE model pro. He had one of the very best trainers in 'Chappie' Blackburn (who had fought over 300 fights himself). Louis threw short, murderous combinations in which every punch was a power shot that never travelled more than a few inches. 50 years before Iron Mike, Louis used to win many fights before they started as his opponents saw him as a machine that would break them up. 25 successful undisputed world title defences in an era when there were some REALLY tough men about. Louis was an idol to an entire generation of people, and a not insignificant political and social phenomenom 30 years before Ali.
I imagine this to be truly the fight of the ages - huge buildup and hype (though, it has to be said, not as much as Louis - Schmeling). Tyson comes out like a freight train in the first round and throws himself at Louis in an all-out blitz reminiscent of the young Dempsey. Louis could box with the best of them and covers up expertly, but he is clearly taken aback by the ferocity of the attack. Tyso connects with a couple of haymakers but cannot land consistent combinations and Louis's excellent powers of recuperation keep him upright, though he is staggered on occasion. Unlike most Tyson, opponents, Louis does not retreat, but moves close to Tyson to clinch (a tactic used successfully by Evander Holyfield, and something that Louis did naturally through his career)
Tyson sweeps the first three rounds, and then begins to temper his assault when he sees Louis will not be blown away like so many of Iron Mike's victims. Once this happens, Louis begins to utilise his ramrod jab and shuffles forward, closing down Tyson's space. Mike likes to initiate the exchanges and Louis begins to time him and take the tempo away. Three more rounds pass, two immovable objects colliding in the centre of the ring and some of the exchanges are messy, dissolving into clinches and mauling.
By the seventh, Louis' accuracy has swollen Tyson's left eye badly. Mike is still dangerous and scores a flash knockdown in the eighth, but it is becoming apparent that the all-out assualt he mounted in the first round took a heavy toll on his stamina. Louis begins to stalk forward, remorselessly busting Tyson up.
Oveer the next three rounds, Tyson takes a steady and ruthless beating, demonstrating his courage and the quality of his chin. If they had fought in the thirties, the fight would have continued, but a barrage of short, vicious punches, finished off with a right uppercut puts Tyson on the canvas in the 10th. battered and bruised, he tries to rise, but the referee shows some mercy and calls the fight off in 2.08 of the round.
A top fight, entertaining, see-saw and action packed at the start and the end.
:coolclick: for a vivid imagination :)Quote:
Originally Posted by X
I think this fight would be a close call. It's interesting to note however that Tyson might have actually been more intimidated by Joe Louis than the other way around.
Tyson has spoken in interviews about how he regarded Joe Louis as the greatest heavyweight of all time and that he was his boyhood idol. He felt Louis could beat anybody.
I think if that fight could have taken place Tyson would have come in very unsure of himself.
Yes, I think that there have been a few fighters who may have intimidated Tyson - Louis, definitely, but also Liston and young Foreman. Frazier would not have been afraid of him, nor would Dempsey or marciano.
It's a moot point to argue whether Tyson would have been slightly intimidated by anyone who was not frightend of him?
theres a lot of truth in what u say , but about the fight tactics used by louis, isnt constent clinching a foul? holyfeild was/is a great warrior, but the ref did not pull him up about all the holding, every time they got in close holy would clinch...this is the only way evander could win,if he didnt use this illegal tactic, mike would have KO him , i mean look what happened in the fifth when holyfield forgot to tie tyson up on the inside! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by X
With the UD I was thinking about the fact that Tyson would have had the better of Joe during the first 6-7 rounds...but as fron round 8 I think Joe Louis would have given an HELL of a fight to Mike...still in a 12 rounder, Tyson winning thanks to his exeptional defense and peek a boo style surviving huge punches...
after the 12 rounds, Journalist and fans would argue that in a 15 rounds Tyson would have been beaten ^^
Tyson fans Overrate Tyson quite a bit
Tyson Haters underrate Tyson really too much