Who was the greatest heavyweight: JOE LOUIS or MUHAMMAD ALI

louis is offically known as the greatest by so called boxing experts- but i say ali--was in golden era and had the toughest opposition. Louis did not have another great heavyweight to really test him and give him a challenge

could louis have beaten liston, foreman, frazier? i dont think he could have--but ali did.

could ali have beaten schmeling, conn and 2ton toni?--with his eyes closed

could ali have beaten louis?--sure--ali could take any punch and fighter could dish out--if he could survive liston and foreman--he could survive joe
he would win by a ud

this post is not 2 take anything away from louis--i just think he is 2nd best nxt 2 ali

hands down.... ALI BOOM-AYE ;)

Ali easily.. I think he fought the best competition of any fighter, and also IMO is probably who I consider as much a contender for best fighter p4p as Ray Robinson... he beat Fraizer, Foreman, Shavers, Norton, Liston, Jimmy Young, Ron Lyle, Patterson, Chuvalo, Quartey, Ellis, Archie Moore, Karl Mildenberger, Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell.

Joe Louis in my book.Joe held the Heavyweight Championship longer than any other Champion; Louis scored 43 knockdowns in his first 22 Professional bouts; Only Jack Kranz and Hans Birkie were not floored; He fought as an amateur light-heavyweight (175-lb class); His amateur record reportedly was 50-4 with 43 knockouts
Here is a good video of him(you can turn down the music I did)
[youtube=425,350]lnTDtqiYzww[/youtube]

cool video but i had to turn the sound off once EMF came on haahha

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Originally Posted by Klitschkofan

Joe Louis in my book.Joe held the Heavyweight Championship longer than any other Champion; Louis scored 43 knockdowns in his first 22 Professional bouts; Only Jack Kranz and Hans Birkie were not floored; He fought as an amateur light-heavyweight (175-lb class); His amateur record reportedly was 50-4 with 43 knockouts
Here is a good video of him(you can turn down the music I did)
[youtube=425,350]lnTDtqiYzww[/youtube]

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He was fighting bums though... I doubt he could have beaten Liston.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Ali easily.. I think he fought the best competition of any fighter, and also IMO is probably who I consider as much a contender for best fighter p4p as Ray Robinson... he beat Fraizer, Foreman, Shavers, Norton, Liston, Jimmy Young, Ron Lyle, Patterson, Chuvalo, Quartey, Ellis, Archie Moore, Karl Mildenberger, Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell.

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u mention them there good names but i have to be honest he got gift decision against jimmy young alot of people thought he lost and alot of people think norton won all 3 fights with ali and u cant even put up archie moore he was 46 at the time i believe and alot of people think shavers did enough to win aswell but he did fight best opp and i admire him for that but he did get quite a few gift decisions and im ali fan and i have to admit it

He might not of had the best oppostition but even if you put Louis in the golden era i still believe he'd be a factor. I chose ali just simply because if you ask someone who isn't even a casual fan of boxing to tell you the first name that pops into their head when you say boxing it will either be Ali, De la Hoya, or Tyson. I think to be a great boxer you have to be charismatic in interviews. Another factor is that he just fought too far back for people to really know him if they aren't a fan of the sport. As for skill wise, they had two different styles but each perfected his own. It comes down to what you consider greatness to be: 1. Someone who had the greatest title reign in boxing history let alone in heavyweight history or 2. Someone who became the first 3 time world champion in heavyweight history along the way avenging all of his losses b4 the 80's.

Joe Louis....25 successful title defenses....best ever!

Ali did very well but I have him at 3rd....I have Rocky Marciano at #2 because he was undefeated...say what you will about who he fought....HE NEVER LOST

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Joe Louis....25 successful title defenses....best ever!

Ali did very well but I have him at 3rd....I have Rocky Marciano at #2 because he was undefeated...say what you will about who he fought....HE NEVER LOST

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He should have lost to La Starza first time around, he got a gift in that fight

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Klitschkofan

Joe Louis in my book.Joe held the Heavyweight Championship longer than any other Champion; Louis scored 43 knockdowns in his first 22 Professional bouts; Only Jack Kranz and Hans Birkie were not floored; He fought as an amateur light-heavyweight (175-lb class); His amateur record reportedly was 50-4 with 43 knockouts
Here is a good video of him(you can turn down the music I did)
[youtube=425,350]lnTDtqiYzww[/youtube]

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He was fighting bums though... I doubt he could have beaten Liston.

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And you think Ali beat a legit Listion? At least the second time he sure as hell didn't. And Liston was past it in both fights anyways. Add the mafia and the whole thing smells like fish.

If you like Ali and think he's the Greatest just because it's everyone else's opinion then you're an idiot....if you are knowledgeable enough to prove in a debate why he's the greatest of all time then I respect your opinion.

And ignorance shows when people say things like "Joe Louis couldn't beat Sonny Liston"....prime for prime Joe Louis would have made Liston look SILLY

they are both great heavyweights. i aint going to say who is better because they are both as good as each other

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Originally Posted by bilbo

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Joe Louis....25 successful title defenses....best ever!

Ali did very well but I have him at 3rd....I have Rocky Marciano at #2 because he was undefeated...say what you will about who he fought....HE NEVER LOST

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He should have lost to La Starza first time around, he got a gift in that fight

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actually it would have been a draw-check the facts--but since he floored lastarza they gave it 2 him.--so his record would have been 48-0-1

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Originally Posted by Lyle

If you like Ali and think he's the Greatest just because it's everyone else's opinion then you're an idiot....if you are knowledgeable enough to prove in a debate why he's the greatest of all time then I respect your opinion.

And ignorance shows when people say things like "Joe Louis couldn't beat Sonny Liston"....prime for prime Joe Louis would have made Liston look SILLY

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Your ignorance is that you can't even acknowledge that Liston was a superior version of Louis... He was way stronger, and just as good of a boxer.

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Originally Posted by Klitschkofan

Joe Louis in my book.Joe held the Heavyweight Championship longer than any other Champion; Louis scored 43 knockdowns in his first 22 Professional bouts; Only Jack Kranz and Hans Birkie were not floored; He fought as an amateur light-heavyweight (175-lb class); His amateur record reportedly was 50-4 with 43 knockouts
Here is a good video of him(you can turn down the music I did)
[youtube=425,350]lnTDtqiYzww[/youtube]

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GOD! Nearly all of his opponents in that vid had very poor defence. They just stood there like lumps of Sh!t waiting to be hit.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Lyle

If you like Ali and think he's the Greatest just because it's everyone else's opinion then you're an idiot....if you are knowledgeable enough to prove in a debate why he's the greatest of all time then I respect your opinion.

And ignorance shows when people say things like "Joe Louis couldn't beat Sonny Liston"....prime for prime Joe Louis would have made Liston look SILLY

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Your ignorance is that you can't even acknowledge that Liston was a superior version of Louis... He was way stronger, and just as good of a boxer.

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Would you rate Liston above Louis then?Because out of all the top 10 greatest heavyweights in history I have never come across someone who thought that.

Here is another who agrees Louis was the best.

From Coxscorner.tripod.com
Joe Louis is the best technician amongst all heavyweight punchers, the most complete fighter amongst all the heavyweight champions, the best in a combination of boxing skill and punching power. His punching accuracy is the best ever seen by a heavyweight on film. He has speed, power, and explosiveness, some of the best combination punching ever in any weight class of any time. Louis was the complete package. He holds the record for longest consecutive title reign at nearly 12 years and the most title defenses with 25, 21 of those are knockouts, 17 are ten counts, and 5 in the first round.

In 2003, Ring Magazine rated Joe Louis number one on the list of 100 greatest punchers of all time. In 2005, Louis was named the greatest heavyweight champion of all time by the International Boxing Research Organization (IBRO): International Boxing Research Organization (March, 2005).

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Originally Posted by bilbo

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Joe Louis....25 successful title defenses....best ever!

Ali did very well but I have him at 3rd....I have Rocky Marciano at #2 because he was undefeated...say what you will about who he fought....HE NEVER LOST

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He should have lost to La Starza first time around, he got a gift in that fight

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Agreed.


Ooh, and why has nobody yet mentioned Jack Johnson. Another arguable "greatest of all time"

I am voting for TYSON......... Tyson is the best heavyweight fighter.....without considering his atittude....

#1 Marciano
#2 Ali
#3 Louis/Tyson

Thats how i have it.

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

#1 Marciano
#2 Ali
#3 Louis/Tyson

Thats how i have it.

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Im dying to open up the "but who did Marciano fight" debate....but i think i will refrain.

1 muhammad ali

2 joe louis

3 rocky marciano

4 larry holmes

5 jack johnson

6 george foreman

7 lennox lewis

im struggling bit here now the other 3 would prolly be

mike tyson

evander holyfield

and a suprise entry gene tunney

but i did struggle with last 3 because couldnt really think of any excellent hw champs

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Joe Louis....25 successful title defenses....best ever!

Ali did very well but I have him at 3rd....I have Rocky Marciano at #2 because he was undefeated...say what you will about who he fought....HE NEVER LOST

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Nor did Sven Ottke ;D

...and there are many reports that Marciano did lose and that the fight was stricken from the record (ask BK ;))

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Originally Posted by Jamoie

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

#1 Marciano
#2 Ali
#3 Louis/Tyson

Thats how i have it.

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Im dying to open up the "but who did Marciano fight" debate....but i think i will refrain.

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Walcott, Charles, and Moore.

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

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Originally Posted by Jamoie

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

#1 Marciano
#2 Ali
#3 Louis/Tyson

Thats how i have it.

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Im dying to open up the "but who did Marciano fight" debate....but i think i will refrain.

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Walcott, Charles, and Moore.

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And louis but i don't believe he was anywhere near in top form for him to be considered a credible opponent at that point but think what you want.

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

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Originally Posted by Jamoie

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

#1 Marciano
#2 Ali
#3 Louis/Tyson

Thats how i have it.

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Im dying to open up the "but who did Marciano fight" debate....but i think i will refrain.

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Walcott, Charles, and Moore.

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Yep the 38 year old , 80 fight veteran Walcott that led after 12 rounds ;)

The 90 fight veteran and former Middleweight Ezzard Charles ;)

...and the 40 Year Old 180 fight Light Heavyweight Archie Moore ;)

;D ;D

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

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Originally Posted by Jamoie

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

#1 Marciano
#2 Ali
#3 Louis/Tyson

Thats how i have it.

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Im dying to open up the "but who did Marciano fight" debate....but i think i will refrain.

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Walcott, Charles, and Moore.

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Yep the 38 year old , 80 fight veteran Walcott that led after 12 rounds ;)

The 90 fight veteran and former Middleweight Ezzard Charles ;)

...and the 40 Year Old 180 fight Light Heavyweight Archie Moore ;)

;D ;D

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They were tougher in their late 30's than 90% of heavyweights are today in their early twenties. Those victories accompanied by the fact that he was never supposed to be able to box in the first place due to a right wrist surgery and that he had pneumonia at age 2 with very early 20th century medical care and he survived with no permenant ill-effects has him ranked #1 in my books. And it doesn't matter who's leading after 12 rounds someone can win all 14 rounds and it wont mean S*** if they can't finish the fight.

Marciano's record sux plain as - look at the records of his opponents, it is the worst set of opponents any Heavyweight that is discussed as a great has ever faced. Mafia Cash cow ;)

...That doesn't mean he wasn't great, it just means we don't know if he was

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Originally Posted by BIG H

Marciano's record sux plain as - look at the records of his opponents, it is the worst set of opponents any Heavyweight that is discussed as a great has ever faced. Mafia Cash cow ;)

...That doesn't mean he wasn't great, it just means we don't know if he was

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He has the hardest measured punch of any heavyweight and a great jaw to accompany it. He did have a problem with cuts tho so if his career was extended a few fights he may have lost one or two on cuts.

Pre-exile Ali would've run circles around Joe Louis. That's not meant as an insult to Louis, but the young Ali had the hand/foot speed of a welterweight and the body of a heavyweight. Louis would've been chasing him all night, getting battered with jabs and quick hooks in the process.
Post-exile Ali couldn't avoid punches the same way, so that fight would be much more a tossup. I still think post-exile Ali beats Louis 7 out of 10, but not 10 out of 10 like the young Ali.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Joe Louis....25 successful title defenses....best ever!

Ali did very well but I have him at 3rd....I have Rocky Marciano at #2 because he was undefeated...say what you will about who he fought....HE NEVER LOST

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Nor did Sven Ottke ;D

...and there are many reports that Marciano did lose and that the fight was stricken from the record (ask BK ;))

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Yes but Svenn didn't fight the best challengers in his division now did he????

Louis was mighty good at chasing people down SweetPea, that's what he did

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Lyle

If you like Ali and think he's the Greatest just because it's everyone else's opinion then you're an idiot....if you are knowledgeable enough to prove in a debate why he's the greatest of all time then I respect your opinion.

And ignorance shows when people say things like "Joe Louis couldn't beat Sonny Liston"....prime for prime Joe Louis would have made Liston look SILLY

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Your ignorance is that you can't even acknowledge that Liston was a superior version of Louis... He was way stronger, and just as good of a boxer.

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I doubt that Liston was a superior version of Louis. Louis was by accounts, faster and relied less on scaring the shit out of his opponents than just plain beating the shit out of them. In his rematch with Schmeling, who had knocked Louis out, Schmeling had no fears and was destroyed in a little over two minutes.

Sonny Liston was not as good as Joe Louis they should even be compared....Sonny was flat footed not because he was always in position but because he had heavy feet.

Joe Louis knew how to cut off the ring, he could move well when needed, he had power in both hands, he didn't fight scared like Liston did either. When Liston lost he was beat mentally and physically and Louis got beat when his body broke down from age and once when he was on the way up when he looked past Max Schmelling.

Taeth, you're free to like Ali all you want to but goddamnit Joe Louis was a Great boxer and he wasn't bested in any way shape or form by Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Lyle

If you like Ali and think he's the Greatest just because it's everyone else's opinion then you're an idiot....if you are knowledgeable enough to prove in a debate why he's the greatest of all time then I respect your opinion.

And ignorance shows when people say things like "Joe Louis couldn't beat Sonny Liston"....prime for prime Joe Louis would have made Liston look SILLY

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I picked ali for the following reasons:

Despite being bigger than most of his opponents, he still moved like he was half their size.
He had one of the nastiest jabs in boxing.
He could move at a quick pace around the ring (mostly circling to the left) and not get tired while doing it.
When someone did get inside on ali he had a great chin and covered up his body well so he never got hurt.
In ali/liston I, liston throws a 5 punch combo (maybe 4 because the tape i have of it is alittle choppy) and none of them land clean while ali is pinned near the ropes.
What he lacked in power he made up for by picking his punches well.
Everyone knows who he is. That has nothing to do with greatness in the ring but i think being well known is a good gauge of success too, unless you become famous for going to jail etc.
He had speed and he knew how to use it. He'd think nothing of dropping a 5 punch flurry on someone. Look at Ali/London (the first fight if there were two of them) The flurry that drops london in round 3 is unbelieveable. I've never seen a combo thrown that fast b4 or since.

I probably tend to favor Ali in any question (aside from marciano) because the first boxing match i ever saw (outside of the rocky movies but those dont really count) was ali/chuvalo I and i knew who ali was but i never saw him box. I didn't think it was possible for a human being to move around like that for an hour str8 and still be standing unwinded in round 8. Thats the fight that made me get into boxing.

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

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Originally Posted by Lyle

If you like Ali and think he's the Greatest just because it's everyone else's opinion then you're an idiot....if you are knowledgeable enough to prove in a debate why he's the greatest of all time then I respect your opinion.

And ignorance shows when people say things like "Joe Louis couldn't beat Sonny Liston"....prime for prime Joe Louis would have made Liston look SILLY

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I picked ali for the following reasons:

Despite being bigger than most of his opponents, he still moved like he was half their size.
He had one of the nastiest jabs in boxing.
He could move at a quick pace around the ring (mostly circling to the left) and not get tired while doing it.
When someone did get inside on ali he had a great chin and covered up his body well so he never got hurt.
In ali/liston I, liston throws a 5 punch combo (maybe 4 because the tape i have of it is alittle choppy) and none of them land clean while ali is pinned near the ropes.
What he lacked in power he made up for by picking his punches well.
Everyone knows who he is. That has nothing to do with greatness in the ring but i think being well known is a good gauge of success too, unless you become famous for going to jail etc.
He had speed and he knew how to use it. He'd think nothing of dropping a 5 punch flurry on someone. Look at Ali/London (the first fight if there were two of them) The flurry that drops london in round 3 is unbelieveable. I've never seen a combo thrown that fast b4 or since.

I probably tend to favor Ali in any question (aside from marciano) because the first boxing match i ever saw (outside of the rocky movies but those dont really count) was ali/chuvalo I and i knew who ali was but i never saw him box. I didn't think it was possible for a human being to move around like that for an hour str8 and still be standing unwinded in round 8. Thats the fight that made me get into boxing.

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fight that made me a boxing fan was ali-quarry 1-i was scared seeing a boxing match--and ali was talking sh** b4 the fight i was that guy is scary. now hes my hero

All I have to say is the destruction of Max Schmelling cements Joe Louis as the best ever....WOW I mean you talk about a man on a mission he nearly broke Schmelling in two!!!!

No other power punchers past 1950 ever beat a guy like that

Jack Johnson-Stanley Ketchel
Jack Dempsey-Jess Willard

Those are the only ones I can think of where the Champ just battered and nearly killed the guy he fought.



Mike Tyson had spectacular KO's but nothing comes close to those, those make his KO of Lou Savarese look like it was done by a 4 year old.

Johnson nailed Ketchel and then wiped Stan's teeth off his glove

Dempsey had holes in Willard's face and had basically broken his whole face

Louis broke Max Shmelling's ribs and I have heard his vertebrae as well....he nearly killed the guy

what about TYSON -BERBICK or FOREMAN -FRAIZER ....tyson and foreman crushed the champ inside 2 ;D

Foreman's KO of Frazier whilst very impressive, didn't leave any physical marks on Frazier and didn't make him bleed and didn't hurt him enough for Frazier to stay down for a 10 count


Tyson-Berbick....it's not worth a mention, yeah Trevor flopped around like a fish but there was no blood and no physical damage for the audience to view.


Imagine sitting back watching Jess Willard spit blood out of holes in his cheeks from Jack Dempsey's punches???

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Foreman's KO of Frazier whilst very impressive, didn't leave any physical marks on Frazier and didn't make him bleed and didn't hurt him enough for Frazier to stay down for a 10 count


Tyson-Berbick....it's not wotrth a mention, yeah Trevor flopped around like a fish but there was no blood and no physical damage for the audience to view.


Imagine sitting back watching Jess Willard spit blood out of holes in his cheeks from Jack Dempsey's punches???

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how did he get holes in his cheeks? was dempseys gloves loaded with nails or something! ;D
but it would be pretty sickening to watch ;)

.....supposedly it was just the lack of a good mouthpeice and Dempsey's raw power but it was alleged that Dempsey had a railroad spike in the thumb of his glove.