El Feroz.

Whats hapenin people..
Question is.. Has anyone heard anything from or regarding fernando vargas recently?
what does he intend to do now?..
here's what i think...
yes he has suffered a few losses... he's a long way from the undefeated champ that fought trinidad on paper... but mentally and skillwise, and perhaps even experiance and maturity wise i feel he may have grown..
I dont feel he's quite done yet.. he's a great fighter... nobody can say he ducked anybody cos he comes to fight man!... he's only lost to truely truely great fighters..
Tito.. lost by tko rnd 12.. but also did knock down trinidad and had a great showing in a fair few rounds and was a great fight..

Oscar tko 11.. i havnt seen to much of this fight.. a few highlights and whatnot.. but its pretty entertainin and i mean come on.. its oscar, you cant be shamed to loose to another great fighter like oscar..

Sugar shane: twice.. Right well on the firts fight i also have a question.. i mean ive seen the crazy swelling and i remember i read about the fight the following morning on hbo!...
the first was tko in 10.. and the scorecards were 86-85 ,86-85, and 85-86
not sure who too! but thats a very close fight...now i know it wasn't a cut stoppage it was a tko?
but should it not have been stopped and gone to the cards?.... what u think?
and in the second .. fair play got caught in the 6th with a perfect left hook and you knew it would last.. but theres no shame in loosing to the sugar man..

so fernando is more then likely still a great fighter, who has just fought and got the raw end of the deal against the truely great fighters of his division..
But then again, the reason why people have perhaps criticized or really havnt minded he lost was his attitude... and his flamboyance..
ive never really been a fan of the ferocious one.. but he is no doubt a great fighter and theres not enough fighters like fernando out there right now..
What you recon.. if he came back.. Keeps it real, keeps it humble.. pics his fights...
He could definately gain some light middlewieght titles.. and perhaps some respect?
Who would you be interested in seeing him fight?
Peace

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

Very few fighters can absorb the kind of punishment that Vargas took against Trinidad and ever be the same fighter again. Since that fight, Vargas has had three major fights (DLH and the 2 vs. Mosley) and he has lost all 3, 2 of them coming by crushing KOs, both on huge left hooks.
Everytime Vargas fights a top-notch guy, the results will be the same, and they figure to get more lopsided the older he gets. And you can't say "Oh, he beat Winky and Quartey!" because that was a long, long time ago, before Trinidad took his pound of flesh from Vargas.

Luckily for Vargas, he's made a ton of money from his big fights and should be financially secure. He should retire.

IMO He would have to move up to a Heavier weight to be effective, He is a naturally bigger guy and making weight seems to be draining him, the only problem with that is if he moves to Middleweight-Supermiddleweight...How effective is his power and How will the chin hold up??

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

IMO He would have to move up to a Heavier weight to be effective, He is a naturally bigger guy and making weight seems to be draining him, the only problem with that is if he moves to Middleweight-Supermiddleweight...How effective is his power and How will the chin hold up??

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This is another reason why Vargas should hang the gloves up. I don't think he can keep making weight at 154. He would have to fight at 160. Vargas has already been knocked out by DLH and Mosley, who both started their careers in the lightweight division, and who were never devestating one-punch punchers above 135. If Vargas couldn't handle their power, how is he supposed to handle the punching power of a true middleweight? This is a recipe for disaster and there is a good chance that Vargas could get seriously hurt.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

IMO He would have to move up to a Heavier weight to be effective, He is a naturally bigger guy and making weight seems to be draining him, the only problem with that is if he moves to Middleweight-Supermiddleweight...How effective is his power and How will the chin hold up??

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This is another reason why Vargas should hang the gloves up. I don't think he can keep making weight at 154. He would have to fight at 160. Vargas has already been knocked out by DLH and Mosley, who both started their careers in the lightweight division, and who were never devestating one-punch punchers above 135. If Vargas couldn't handle their power, how is he supposed to handle the punching power of a true middleweight? This is a recipe for disaster and there is a good chance that Vargas could get seriously hurt.

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Well the alternative that seems to be a popular opinion is for Mayorga and Vargas to Duke it out, Both APPEAR to be shot at this time and maybe it would be a good last fight for the 2 of them.... All I know is that the Media tour would be legendary with those 2 shite talkers... ;)

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

Very few fighters can absorb the kind of punishment that Vargas took against Trinidad and ever be the same fighter again. Since that fight, Vargas has had three major fights (DLH and the 2 vs. Mosley) and he has lost all 3, 2 of them coming by crushing KOs, both on huge left hooks.
Everytime Vargas fights a top-notch guy, the results will be the same, and they figure to get more lopsided the older he gets. And you can't say "Oh, he beat Winky and Quartey!" because that was a long, long time ago, before Trinidad took his pound of flesh from Vargas.

Luckily for Vargas, he's made a ton of money from his big fights and should be financially secure. He should retire.

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Thanks for the replies guys!! cc to both..
Firstly to Sweet Pea... its true trinidad will affect em.. tito is my favourite fighter so i have no arguement against that..
The winky fight was a bit of a strange decision .. but none the less .. on the record..
Quartey a big win.. props...
I definately feel he should have picked his opponents better no doubt..
Vargas is an ok boxer... great power...i certainly think retirement is a bit pre mature right now..
he would definately claim titles at light middle and could have great fights...
he lost these fights... but the trinidad fight was close as they come putting aside the twelth round
and perhaps without the point deduction for fernando on a borderline low blow late in the right..
which was a make up call by jay nady!!
and the first mosely fight was hella close..
But you're dead on hes certainly got the money young.. but he's a proud mexican fighter like most mexican fighters and he wants to fight to be remembered... so his children can say theyr father was a warrior..thats a quote ;) :P

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

IMO He would have to move up to a Heavier weight to be effective, He is a naturally bigger guy and making weight seems to be draining him, the only problem with that is if he moves to Middleweight-Supermiddleweight...How effective is his power and How will the chin hold up??

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i feel thats a good idea, certainly as the middleweight division is soon to be left fairly empty when jermaine moves to super middle, i dont think arthur , abraham, and the rest are quite the same tier as fernando...
winky im sure would certainly want a rematch.. which nobody wants to fight winky tbh...
A some what crazy idea... but what could really make his legacy...
can he make welter... There is always the void left by floyd.. fights with people like judah, collazo, baldomir possibly, margarito, cotto, cintron.. Lots of choices..
Although highly likely that its too late in his career to make welter,
but if he could his power would be supreme at that wieght, depending on how he makes the wieght..
Also with a record and his big name... he might want to consider a new trainer..
work on that defence of his.. work of conditioning and skills with a big name trainer..
get out there and retain a great legacy..?!
Thoughts?
Peace

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

IMO He would have to move up to a Heavier weight to be effective, He is a naturally bigger guy and making weight seems to be draining him, the only problem with that is if he moves to Middleweight-Supermiddleweight...How effective is his power and How will the chin hold up??

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This is another reason why Vargas should hang the gloves up. I don't think he can keep making weight at 154. He would have to fight at 160. Vargas has already been knocked out by DLH and Mosley, who both started their careers in the lightweight division, and who were never devestating one-punch punchers above 135. If Vargas couldn't handle their power, how is he supposed to handle the punching power of a true middleweight? This is a recipe for disaster and there is a good chance that Vargas could get seriously hurt.

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Definately not a bad point... But we can all agree that both shane and oscar have grown into the higher wieghts and have definately carried theyr skill up there.. and kept the power...
they are not devastating.. but there's no doubt they are strong at the higher wieghts!

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

IMO He would have to move up to a Heavier weight to be effective, He is a naturally bigger guy and making weight seems to be draining him, the only problem with that is if he moves to Middleweight-Supermiddleweight...How effective is his power and How will the chin hold up??

---

This is another reason why Vargas should hang the gloves up. I don't think he can keep making weight at 154. He would have to fight at 160. Vargas has already been knocked out by DLH and Mosley, who both started their careers in the lightweight division, and who were never devestating one-punch punchers above 135. If Vargas couldn't handle their power, how is he supposed to handle the punching power of a true middleweight? This is a recipe for disaster and there is a good chance that Vargas could get seriously hurt.

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Well the alternative that seems to be a popular opinion is for Mayorga and Vargas to Duke it out, Both APPEAR to be shot at this time and maybe it would be a good last fight for the 2 of them.... All I know is that the Media tour would be legendary with those 2 shite talkers... ;)

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I say vargas by late stoppage... thats my personal opinion..
but its definately a start for vargas.. pad out them losses.. against another big name fighter.. and look to bigger better things.. maybe a new division? he certainly needs a change of some sort?!
And i dont know many people who arent interested in this fight?
i'd pay huge amounts of money just to see the press conferance!! ;D
Peace

There is no way he is making welter and if he did would be ineffective like he was against Mosely in the 2nd fight were he looked tired drained and plotting.... He was working with a great strength and conditioning coach to overcome his back troubles...Fernado is just in kind of a career limbo and it rough seeing he is only 28 years old.. :-\

Oscar fans alway's seem to get mad at me when I say that Mayorga and Vargas werent the same after their losses to Trinidad. They want to make it seem that ODH had great showings against these boxers just as Tito did. But it is very easy to see that Fernando was never the same after the Tito fight such as Taylor was never the same after the Chavez fight, brutal beatings can take away from a man's physical and mental prowess. Being KO'd in a brutal fashion shot Vargas. His next two fights were slow and he was knocked down by a journeyman. It was so discouraging that the Vargas camp had to pull Fernando too the side and ask if he wanted to continue fighting, he said yes. His next fight was against ODH and the rest is history. That fighter you saw fight ODH and Mosley was not the same fighter who fought Tito but it was a fighter who had alot of heart and determination. Mosley recieved an even more shot Vargas than Oscar did, Mosley should not recieve the same credit that Tito or even ODH recieved. Whether a fighter is drained in weight or not has nothing to do with the way Fernando has been performing in the ring, he has been slow, his back injury has him very stiff, he has no outside attack, and his punches lack the usual flare they had in the past. This man can no longer compete with top competition in any weight class. He took the Tito fight too early which probably cost him the HOF.

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

There is no way he is making welter and if he did would be ineffective like he was against Mosely in the 2nd fight were he looked tired drained and plotting.... He was working with a great strength and conditioning coach to overcome his back troubles...Fernado is just in kind of a career limbo and it rough seeing he is only 28 years old.. :-\

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yehh man i know what u mean its hard stuff..

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Originally Posted by brazilianbomber

Oscar fans alway's seem to get mad at me when I say that Mayorga and Vargas werent the same after their losses to Trinidad. They want to make it seem that ODH had great showings against these boxers just as Tito did. But it is very easy to see that Fernando was never the same after the Tito fight such as Taylor was never the same after the Chavez fight, brutal beatings can take away from a man's physical and mental prowess. Being KO'd in a brutal fashion shot Vargas. His next two fights were slow and he was knocked down by a journeyman. It was so discouraging that the Vargas camp had to pull Fernando too the side and ask if he wanted to continue fighting, he said yes. His next fight was against ODH and the rest is history. That fighter you saw fight ODH and Mosley was not the same fighter who fought Tito but it was a fighter who had alot of heart and determination. Mosley recieved an even more shot Vargas than Oscar did, Mosley should not recieve the same credit that Tito or even ODH recieved. Whether a fighter is drained in weight or not has nothing to do with the way Fernando has been performing in the ring, he has been slow, his back injury has him very stiff, he has no outside attack, and his punches lack the usual flare they had in the past. This man can no longer compete with top competition in any weight class. He took the Tito fight too early which probably cost him the HOF.

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Good points cc!!..
Perhaps he wasnt completely shot after trinidad.. certainly took it out of him...
However... i dont think he'll hang em up... perhaps if he fights smart and picks his fights carefully.. he will still make HOF .. he's certainly been in some of the great fights of the generation..
im baffled to why his fight with tito wasnt fight of the year?! lol.. anyone know what was the f.o.t.y that year? was it 2001 or somethin?
yeh oscar fans wont like that, lol maybe bieng a bit bold with it.. but its true to an extent..
I can truely see him securing a legacy with wins over fighters like mayorga, spinks and theres a few fights with ranked fighters in the light middleweight division ..
I brought this subject up cos ive been getting impatient to know what he plans on doing..
i have heard litterally nothing.. and it'd be a shame to hang em up for such a talented fighter on such a bad note at the age of 28 :-\ ...
Peace..


cc for the reply bomber!

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

Very few fighters can absorb the kind of punishment that Vargas took against Trinidad and ever be the same fighter again. Since that fight, Vargas has had three major fights (DLH and the 2 vs. Mosley) and he has lost all 3, 2 of them coming by crushing KOs, both on huge left hooks.
Everytime Vargas fights a top-notch guy, the results will be the same, and they figure to get more lopsided the older he gets. And you can't say "Oh, he beat Winky and Quartey!" because that was a long, long time ago, before Trinidad took his pound of flesh from Vargas.

Luckily for Vargas, he's made a ton of money from his big fights and should be financially secure. He should retire.

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CC sweetpea, that's a good way to put it. I always liked Vargas and think he was SOOOO close to being one of the premier fighters in his day. He gave Tito and Oscar hell and they both had their hands full with him. I always admired his warrior spirit and toughness. I think he may have been brought up a bit too fast and I agree that Tito fight took a lot out of him. He took so much punishment in the first round alone, but refused to go down and gave Tito everything he could handle.

Still, he's much older than his 28 years. Still, there is absolutly no shame in any of his losses, all of which came from world class fighters who had to give it their all the beat him. Lossing to Trinidad, DLH, and Mosley...just goes to show how he never backed down. Still, he didnt look like his oldself in that last fight against mosley. I think he's still got some left, but I dont want to see him take anymore abuse.

CC to bodyhead as well for starting this thread :)

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

Whats hapenin people..
Question is.. Has anyone heard anything from or regarding fernando vargas recently?
what does he intend to do now?..
here's what i think...
yes he has suffered a few losses... he's a long way from the undefeated champ that fought trinidad on paper... but mentally and skillwise, and perhaps even experiance and maturity wise i feel he may have grown..
I dont feel he's quite done yet.. he's a great fighter... nobody can say he ducked anybody cos he comes to fight man!... he's only lost to truely truely great fighters..
Tito.. lost by tko rnd 12.. but also did knock down trinidad and had a great showing in a fair few rounds and was a great fight..

Oscar tko 11.. i havnt seen to much of this fight.. a few highlights and whatnot.. but its pretty entertainin and i mean come on.. its oscar, you cant be shamed to loose to another great fighter like oscar..

Sugar shane: twice.. Right well on the firts fight i also have a question.. i mean ive seen the crazy swelling and i remember i read about the fight the following morning on hbo!...
the first was tko in 10.. and the scorecards were 86-85 ,86-85, and 85-86
not sure who too! but thats a very close fight...now i know it wasn't a cut stoppage it was a tko?
but should it not have been stopped and gone to the cards?.... what u think?
and in the second .. fair play got caught in the 6th with a perfect left hook and you knew it would last.. but theres no shame in loosing to the sugar man..

so fernando is more then likely still a great fighter, who has just fought and got the raw end of the deal against the truely great fighters of his division..
But then again, the reason why people have perhaps criticized or really havnt minded he lost was his attitude... and his flamboyance..
ive never really been a fan of the ferocious one.. but he is no doubt a great fighter and theres not enough fighters like fernando out there right now..
What you recon.. if he came back.. Keeps it real, keeps it humble.. pics his fights...
He could definately gain some light middlewieght titles.. and perhaps some respect?
Who would you be interested in seeing him fight?
Peace

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Very interesting topic. Enjoy a sadclick!

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Originally Posted by dasamm

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

Very few fighters can absorb the kind of punishment that Vargas took against Trinidad and ever be the same fighter again. Since that fight, Vargas has had three major fights (DLH and the 2 vs. Mosley) and he has lost all 3, 2 of them coming by crushing KOs, both on huge left hooks.
Everytime Vargas fights a top-notch guy, the results will be the same, and they figure to get more lopsided the older he gets. And you can't say "Oh, he beat Winky and Quartey!" because that was a long, long time ago, before Trinidad took his pound of flesh from Vargas.

Luckily for Vargas, he's made a ton of money from his big fights and should be financially secure. He should retire.

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CC sweetpea, that's a good way to put it. I always liked Vargas and think he was SOOOO close to being one of the premier fighters in his day. He gave Tito and Oscar hell and they both had their hands full with him. I always admired his warrior spirit and toughness. I think he may have been brought up a bit too fast and I agree that Tito fight took a lot out of him. He took so much punishment in the first round alone, but refused to go down and gave Tito everything he could handle.

Still, he's much older than his 28 years. Still, there is absolutly no shame in any of his losses, all of which came from world class fighters who had to give it their all the beat him. Lossing to Trinidad, DLH, and Mosley...just goes to show how he never backed down. Still, he didnt look like his oldself in that last fight against mosley. I think he's still got some left, but I dont want to see him take anymore abuse.

CC to bodyhead as well for starting this thread :)

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Always a pleasure bro! cc in 24!!
made some great points!!

...complusivenutsuckerSadclicker... suck my nuts...

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

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No offense...but I gotta disagree.

I see where you are coming from...but I honestly think that Vargas had what it took...reflexes & all...but he was still a bit of a work in progress.

He had power, chin, reflexes, & speed...but you don't just toss someone like Vargas in with someone like Oscar & Tito that early in his career.

What I think killed Vargas was temperment & maturity...that & the power of Oscar & Tito.

Even though I don't like Vargas...he handled the best of what Campas, Wright (who I think won or atleast drew with), Marquez, & Quartey to only name a few had to offer.

I just think that Vargas was rushed out of the gate a bit too soon.

I agree with Wacko Vargas was rushed too soon.....His camp relied too much on his stle and power before they put him in with the big dogs.....Truth is even at only 28 or so he is a shot fighter....Too many big losses...Well actually just the tow from Tito and DLH are enough he was manhandled by tito and hurt by DLH....Plus his bach problems...The back is something that never is right after surgery....even a successful one.....He has had a decent go at it made good money...He should try something else now or he will end up a stepping stone

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

I agree with Wacko Vargas was rushed too soon.....His camp relied too much on his stle and power before they put him in with the big dogs.....Truth is even at only 28 or so he is a shot fighter....Too many big losses...Well actually just the tow from Tito and DLH are enough he was manhandled by tito and hurt by DLH....Plus his bach problems...The back is something that never is right after surgery....even a successful one.....He has had a decent go at it made good money...He should try something else now or he will end up a stepping stone

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:coolclick: Thing about Vargas is that he did very well with some of the shared opponents of Tito & Oscar...that's why I think that they pushed him into the mat with the two of them...I just still think that it was his downfall.

When you say he was manhandled...that was what I think got him the most...they beat him down like a kid that had nothing to offer up in retort & Vargas has a hell of a lot of pride.

I just think that it mentally scarred him.

He still talks about the Oscar fight to this day...talk about a chip on one's shoulder.

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Originally Posted by CompulsiveSadClicker

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

Whats hapenin people..
Question is.. Has anyone heard anything from or regarding fernando vargas recently?
what does he intend to do now?..
here's what i think...
yes he has suffered a few losses... he's a long way from the undefeated champ that fought trinidad on paper... but mentally and skillwise, and perhaps even experiance and maturity wise i feel he may have grown..
I dont feel he's quite done yet.. he's a great fighter... nobody can say he ducked anybody cos he comes to fight man!... he's only lost to truely truely great fighters..
Tito.. lost by tko rnd 12.. but also did knock down trinidad and had a great showing in a fair few rounds and was a great fight..

Oscar tko 11.. i havnt seen to much of this fight.. a few highlights and whatnot.. but its pretty entertainin and i mean come on.. its oscar, you cant be shamed to loose to another great fighter like oscar..

Sugar shane: twice.. Right well on the firts fight i also have a question.. i mean ive seen the crazy swelling and i remember i read about the fight the following morning on hbo!...
the first was tko in 10.. and the scorecards were 86-85 ,86-85, and 85-86
not sure who too! but thats a very close fight...now i know it wasn't a cut stoppage it was a tko?
but should it not have been stopped and gone to the cards?.... what u think?
and in the second .. fair play got caught in the 6th with a perfect left hook and you knew it would last.. but theres no shame in loosing to the sugar man..

so fernando is more then likely still a great fighter, who has just fought and got the raw end of the deal against the truely great fighters of his division..
But then again, the reason why people have perhaps criticized or really havnt minded he lost was his attitude... and his flamboyance..
ive never really been a fan of the ferocious one.. but he is no doubt a great fighter and theres not enough fighters like fernando out there right now..
What you recon.. if he came back.. Keeps it real, keeps it humble.. pics his fights...
He could definately gain some light middlewieght titles.. and perhaps some respect?
Who would you be interested in seeing him fight?
Peace

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Very interesting topic. Enjoy a sadclick!

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OK allow me to put a stop to this little game right now...

post count reset :)

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Originally Posted by Saddo

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Originally Posted by CompulsiveSadClicker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

Whats hapenin people..
Question is.. Has anyone heard anything from or regarding fernando vargas recently?
what does he intend to do now?..
here's what i think...
yes he has suffered a few losses... he's a long way from the undefeated champ that fought trinidad on paper... but mentally and skillwise, and perhaps even experiance and maturity wise i feel he may have grown..
I dont feel he's quite done yet.. he's a great fighter... nobody can say he ducked anybody cos he comes to fight man!... he's only lost to truely truely great fighters..
Tito.. lost by tko rnd 12.. but also did knock down trinidad and had a great showing in a fair few rounds and was a great fight..

Oscar tko 11.. i havnt seen to much of this fight.. a few highlights and whatnot.. but its pretty entertainin and i mean come on.. its oscar, you cant be shamed to loose to another great fighter like oscar..

Sugar shane: twice.. Right well on the firts fight i also have a question.. i mean ive seen the crazy swelling and i remember i read about the fight the following morning on hbo!...
the first was tko in 10.. and the scorecards were 86-85 ,86-85, and 85-86
not sure who too! but thats a very close fight...now i know it wasn't a cut stoppage it was a tko?
but should it not have been stopped and gone to the cards?.... what u think?
and in the second .. fair play got caught in the 6th with a perfect left hook and you knew it would last.. but theres no shame in loosing to the sugar man..

so fernando is more then likely still a great fighter, who has just fought and got the raw end of the deal against the truely great fighters of his division..
But then again, the reason why people have perhaps criticized or really havnt minded he lost was his attitude... and his flamboyance..
ive never really been a fan of the ferocious one.. but he is no doubt a great fighter and theres not enough fighters like fernando out there right now..
What you recon.. if he came back.. Keeps it real, keeps it humble.. pics his fights...
He could definately gain some light middlewieght titles.. and perhaps some respect?
Who would you be interested in seeing him fight?
Peace

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Very interesting topic. Enjoy a sadclick!

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OK allow me to put a stop to this little game right now...

post count reset :)

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Thats Hilarious.....Even better than a Ban, That Mofo is running on a posting treadmill now, not getting anywere... LOL!! ;D

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

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No offense...but I gotta disagree.

I see where you are coming from...but I honestly think that Vargas had what it took...reflexes & all...but he was still a bit of a work in progress.

He had power, chin, reflexes, & speed...but you don't just toss someone like Vargas in with someone like Oscar & Tito that early in his career.

What I think killed Vargas was temperment & maturity...that & the power of Oscar & Tito.

Even though I don't like Vargas...he handled the best of what Campas, Wright (who I think won or atleast drew with), Marquez, & Quartey to only name a few had to offer.

I just think that Vargas was rushed out of the gate a bit too soon.

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How the hell can you say he was rushed and it was to early to put him in with Trinidad and De La Hoya when he had already been in with Quartey and Wright? That makes no sense at all. If he would of lost to Wright or Quartey then yeah you can say he was rushed. But he didn't. He was as ready as he was going to get to face Trinidad and De La Hoya. Bottom line is Vargas got beat by 2 fighters who were just better. It was not cuz he was rushed. It's idiotic to say so.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

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No offense...but I gotta disagree.

I see where you are coming from...but I honestly think that Vargas had what it took...reflexes & all...but he was still a bit of a work in progress.

He had power, chin, reflexes, & speed...but you don't just toss someone like Vargas in with someone like Oscar & Tito that early in his career.

What I think killed Vargas was temperment & maturity...that & the power of Oscar & Tito.

Even though I don't like Vargas...he handled the best of what Campas, Wright (who I think won or atleast drew with), Marquez, & Quartey to only name a few had to offer.

I just think that Vargas was rushed out of the gate a bit too soon.

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How the hell can you say he was rushed and it was to early to put him in with Trinidad and De La Hoya when he had already been in with Quartey and Wright? That makes no sense at all. If he would of lost to Wright or Quartey then yeah you can say he was rushed. But he didn't. He was as ready as he was going to get to face Trinidad and De La Hoya. Bottom line is Vargas got beat by 2 fighters who were just better. It was not cuz he was rushed. It's idiotic to say so.

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Quartey was not in the best of modes at the time...Another fighter who has let a loss to DLH change him...Though that fight was closer than DLH/Vargas....some think Quartey won that fight....Winkey Wright lost to Vargas yes but not impressivly....It was just a win...Winkey not the same guy now he was then either twice the fighter today....So it is not idiotic to say so...

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

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No offense...but I gotta disagree.

I see where you are coming from...but I honestly think that Vargas had what it took...reflexes & all...but he was still a bit of a work in progress.

He had power, chin, reflexes, & speed...but you don't just toss someone like Vargas in with someone like Oscar & Tito that early in his career.

What I think killed Vargas was temperment & maturity...that & the power of Oscar & Tito.

Even though I don't like Vargas...he handled the best of what Campas, Wright (who I think won or atleast drew with), Marquez, & Quartey to only name a few had to offer.

I just think that Vargas was rushed out of the gate a bit too soon.

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How the hell can you say he was rushed and it was to early to put him in with Trinidad and De La Hoya when he had already been in with Quartey and Wright? That makes no sense at all. If he would of lost to Wright or Quartey then yeah you can say he was rushed. But he didn't. He was as ready as he was going to get to face Trinidad and De La Hoya. Bottom line is Vargas got beat by 2 fighters who were just better. It was not cuz he was rushed. It's idiotic to say so.

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Quartey was not in the best of modes at the time...Another fighter who has let a loss to DLH change him...Though that fight was closer than DLH/Vargas....some think Quartey won that fight....Winkey Wright lost to Vargas yes but not impressivly....It was just a win...Winkey not the same guy now he was then either twice the fighter today....So it is not idiotic to say so...

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So you think he was rushed, too?

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

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No offense...but I gotta disagree.

I see where you are coming from...but I honestly think that Vargas had what it took...reflexes & all...but he was still a bit of a work in progress.

He had power, chin, reflexes, & speed...but you don't just toss someone like Vargas in with someone like Oscar & Tito that early in his career.

What I think killed Vargas was temperment & maturity...that & the power of Oscar & Tito.

Even though I don't like Vargas...he handled the best of what Campas, Wright (who I think won or atleast drew with), Marquez, & Quartey to only name a few had to offer.

I just think that Vargas was rushed out of the gate a bit too soon.

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How the hell can you say he was rushed and it was to early to put him in with Trinidad and De La Hoya when he had already been in with Quartey and Wright? That makes no sense at all. If he would of lost to Wright or Quartey then yeah you can say he was rushed. But he didn't. He was as ready as he was going to get to face Trinidad and De La Hoya. Bottom line is Vargas got beat by 2 fighters who were just better. It was not cuz he was rushed. It's idiotic to say so.

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It's idiotic to even compare the then Wright that fought Vargas to Oscar or Tito who were prime back when they fought Vargas. Surely even you can see that.

Wright was still sorting all his defensive skills out...Quartey...yeah...I might give you that one...but I aint all that up on Quartey...not like everyone else is...or was.

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

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No offense...but I gotta disagree.

I see where you are coming from...but I honestly think that Vargas had what it took...reflexes & all...but he was still a bit of a work in progress.

He had power, chin, reflexes, & speed...but you don't just toss someone like Vargas in with someone like Oscar & Tito that early in his career.

What I think killed Vargas was temperment & maturity...that & the power of Oscar & Tito.

Even though I don't like Vargas...he handled the best of what Campas, Wright (who I think won or atleast drew with), Marquez, & Quartey to only name a few had to offer.

I just think that Vargas was rushed out of the gate a bit too soon.

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How the hell can you say he was rushed and it was to early to put him in with Trinidad and De La Hoya when he had already been in with Quartey and Wright?  That makes no sense at all.  If he would of lost to Wright or Quartey then yeah you can say he was rushed.  But he didn't.  He was as ready as he was going to get to face Trinidad and De La Hoya.  Bottom line is Vargas got beat by 2 fighters who were just better.  It was not cuz he was rushed.  It's idiotic to say so.

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It's idiotic to even compare the then Wright that fought Vargas to Oscar or Tito who were prime back when they fought Vargas. Surely even you can see that.

Wright was still sorting all his defensive skills out...Quartey...yeah...I might give you that one...but I aint all that up on Quartey...not like everyone else is...or was.

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Than when would of been a good time for Vargas to fight Trinidad?  Who should he have faught instead?  He was as ready as he was ever going to get.  And his porformance proved it.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

While no one can question Fernando's heart or desire, he was never talented enough to beat the top guys and he never will be. He had very good punching power, but what separates the very good fighters from the great fighters are speed and reflexes. Fernando, even at a young age, never had the reflexes to avoid being hit with big punches (especially left hooks) and he also didn't have the chin to absorb big punches once they landed.

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No offense...but I gotta disagree.

I see where you are coming from...but I honestly think that Vargas had what it took...reflexes & all...but he was still a bit of a work in progress.

He had power, chin, reflexes, & speed...but you don't just toss someone like Vargas in with someone like Oscar & Tito that early in his career.

What I think killed Vargas was temperment & maturity...that & the power of Oscar & Tito.

Even though I don't like Vargas...he handled the best of what Campas, Wright (who I think won or atleast drew with), Marquez, & Quartey to only name a few had to offer.

I just think that Vargas was rushed out of the gate a bit too soon.

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How the hell can you say he was rushed and it was to early to put him in with Trinidad and De La Hoya when he had already been in with Quartey and Wright? That makes no sense at all. If he would of lost to Wright or Quartey then yeah you can say he was rushed. But he didn't. He was as ready as he was going to get to face Trinidad and De La Hoya. Bottom line is Vargas got beat by 2 fighters who were just better. It was not cuz he was rushed. It's idiotic to say so.

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Quartey was not in the best of modes at the time...Another fighter who has let a loss to DLH change him...Though that fight was closer than DLH/Vargas....some think Quartey won that fight....Winkey Wright lost to Vargas yes but not impressivly....It was just a win...Winkey not the same guy now he was then either twice the fighter today....So it is not idiotic to say so...

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So you think he was rushed, too?

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IMO some people can say rushed but....I think that he was just not read for those guys at that time....Both DLH and Trinidad at the time were on a roll with big fights....I think that also Vargas people relied to much on Vargas power and heart....These two guys are also good boxers who can hit and hit hard...If your main weapon is power and heart you are not going to beat guys who also have the same if not more power...The same as if not more heart and are better skilled.....I also think the fact they happened not to far apart hurt him....Just as Fernando seemed a little past the mental aspect of the DLH loss he suffered another one to Trinidad....Add that to his injurys and you have a ruined fighter

Vargas at his prime and around it was very exciting and a true warrior. He deserves respect and thanks from boxing fans for two great fights with Oscar and Tito. Lately though, Vargas has just shown up for the pay day against Shane, and he was less than stellar against Castillejo and Ray Joval. I think he will stay retired and I hope he does. IF he does ever fight Mayorga, I am a die hard Mayorga fan, and I really truly believe El Matador has more left in the tank than Vargas, and with his bad back, Vargas would be knocked out early by Mayorga. Though if both desire one more big pay day, one more super fight, one last shot at glory, and one hell of a series of press confernces, then lets get it on!!!!!!