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I got this bunch of Kung Fu movies over Christmas, they were great. :D
I wondered how useful Kung Fu would be in the ring :o ,
Say you banned striking and kicking, then it would be...
kung Fu punches vs boxing punches
What do you guys think?
Anyone done any Kung Fu? Is it better than western boxing?
I got this bunch of Kung Fu movies over Christmas, they were great.
HARD ROCK
Which ones? Just curious.
I can speak from a karateman's point of view, having learned genuine karate at young age is Okinawa (remember Miyagi san of Karate Kid? I'm a proud pinoy but actually I was born there and went to school run by the U.S. military there). To start, karateman usually punches better than boxers, though I can't describe it here in detail, it basically has to do with the fact boxers first learn to punch with their gloves on with the usually wraps around the hands, both which hinders the making of a good well-clenched fist - you just gotta be able to make a good fist to be able to punch well, not just letting your hands hanging loose inside the gloves. We karatemen can easily see the 'defects' in boxers' punches and that's why we're pretty good at analysing them. Of course, a boxer fighting a karateman, a boxer wouldn't have a chance because of the many technics allowed in karate, like blocking technics, grabbing your opponents hand, and all kinds of striking technics, and most of all, kicking. (That's one reason I've said UFC is fake - if I wear any of those mittens they wear and strike any of them my size in the jaw, I'm pretty sure their jaws will be a gonner.) But if they fight on the ring strictly on boxing rules, then the karateman hasn't got a chance cuz they just don't 'box' - they're just not boxers, simple as that.
Thats fuking ridiculously, No way in hell a Karateman punches better than a Boxer. Punches is the only tool a boxer uses, while a Karateman is more wide spread among legs. Just curious, Do they practice opium at the school?Quote:
Originally Posted by pacfan
I have boxed and was a Brown Belt in Kung Fu (dropped out the day of my Black Belt test so I didn't have to register my hands and feet as lethal weapons) and would definitely side with the boxers on this one. Most boxers are street fighters or have had a few street fights in their day so the whole "grabbing of the fist stuff is rediculous" So the making a good fist is way exaggerated. Besides, unless you go to an instructor that teaches street Kung Fu it's nothing more than a beautiful form of martial arts. I went to someone that taught "Street Kung Fu", Greg Greene...a former world record holder for breaking boards with his head...Most martial artists can't punch for shite!!! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by hardrock
I've mastered the art of punching but unfortunately, there's no way for me to prove it here. But if anyone thinks he knows better, can you tell me the characteristics of a good punch? We can start from here.
I practiced Kung Fu (Eagle Claw style) many years in Puerto Rico and my father was a professional boxer. I have to say that my passion for the sport started with the martial arts and subsequently with a the influence of my father my passion for boxing raised. I would say both of them have their advantages and disadvantages rather than just selecting one. This also depends on the person, his dedication and abilities, not only on the style. I used to practice Kung Fu 3 - 4 days a week and 2 days boxing. And, I got to say that boxing helped me a lot with my fighting skills. I use boxing stance rather than traditional Kung Fu. But, again I believe this is very dependant on the person. Assuming similar skills in each discipline: Fighting with gloves and just allowing punches the boxer should win; allowing other types of attacks such as kicking legs, grabbing, fighting on the floor, etc. the Kung Fu should win.
im not sure if its true but i heard kosta tzyu did iron palm training to condition his fists
Crocop's ex coach was also a kung fu man and used some kung fu principles in his coaching
A while back they had this show on some chanel, might have been fox sports, the science of sports or something. On one of the shows they measured how much pounds of presure per foot or something each punch created, well basically the boxers punch won out with something like a 1000+ lbs, equal to a karate kick. The most devestating however was some crazy thai boxing move that was the same as being in a car wreck at 40 miles an hour....so but jeah I guess boxing punch beats out a kung fu one.
I don't know about kung fu punching, but I know power punches come from the legs, like a boxer should, a punch starts from the feet, twisting of the hips, power coming from the thighs, turning your shoulder, and BAM! All the power comes from the legs and leverage is the main thing.
I got to say I am impressed with the opinions.
I practise Taekwondo also to keep me fit for boxing mainly.
I believe minus the jumping, Taekwondo is more or less Korean Kung Fu.
The martial artist starts his punch at the hip (sometimes mid-way between the hip and arm pit).
The Western boxer/Thai boxer starts his punch with his hands in front of his face.
A reverse punch is powerful and can break boards, but the defence before, during and after the reverse punch is poor compared ti a boxer.
The reverse punch does seem to have a grip on me. If you can break boards, you can use the ounch to knock people out.
.
Accurate analysis of the Boxer vs Karate fightQuote:
Originally Posted by pacfan
UFC is real tho' and lots of guys do get TK teh F out and broken jaws teeth noses etc. Rent all the UFC videos starting way back and watch.
They have tamed it down with rule changes now
Real japanese Karate is like point Karate but with full contact.
I fought in real JKF and JKA Karate tournements in canada with full contact all body plus face and groin! Cups were not allowed! we wore a little cotten roll over our knuckles and people got hurt REALLY bad. MOstly teeth noses and BAD face cuts. And lots of broken hands,
Sorry for being late, I've been having difficulty connecting due to Asian-wide internet problem after an earthquake in Taiwan.Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
All right, I'm willing to reconsider my view though I still doubt it. In the first place why do they have to go on grappling most of the time, is it because they want to turn it into a mini WWF which is easy to fake than engaging in a punching and kicking match throughout which is more difficult to fake? I really don't know for sure but maybe someone can give me a good explanation...
Many say the power comes from the legs and that is correct, but not quite. The power actually comes from the WHOLE BODY, including the sole of the feet. Ridiculous?! Actually it's pretty simple to explain. It's just like pushing a stalled car, you use your full body strenght to do that. But instead of using your hands to do so, imagine you are doing that with one of your fists. That's how a punch should be. That's how great punchers punch, that's how prime Tyson punched, that's how Pacquiao punches - just look how he sent Morales body flying in the second round of their second fight and how he lifted the body of 3k battery (Fahsan?) with an uppercut.
You said you're from JKF or JKA, and I know most popular Japanese karate styles come from the Shuri or Shorin branch which is one of the two major branches of the Okinawan karate. But there is a kata (for the laymen, they're form exercises) call Sanchin which is the anchor of the Naha or Shorei branch, particularly the Uechi style, which helps develop that power. That kata exercise is basically divided into 'withdrawal.' 'shifting,' and 'striking' phases. You relax your body when you withdraw your punch and gently shift your stance, but when you are in the striking position, you tense your whole body (just as if you are going to push a car) and with a 'kiai' scream you exhale and thrust your arm for the strike, all the while tensing all the muscles in your body. Then you immediately relax and shift your position to the other side and the process is repeated over and over again. That kata exercise will help you develop the ultimate power in punching. If you're a serious karate student, you should learn that kata no matter what your style is - the movements are pretty simple and if you like you can further simplify it by taking out some fancy movements which are not important.
I know I'm going to take some heat for this, but here it goes. I studied Kenpo for about eight years before many of the people on this board were born. Most of what I was taught was useless in a real fight. I was taught to cross my legs when delivering a strike or kick, arm punching, face rakes, animal sh*t., etc. Boxing and wrestling are probably the most effective self defense systems around. KISS - keep it simple stupid.
Chi is the only advantage oriental martial arts have over boxing, and higher levels of concentration. There are masters who could rupture your kidney or heart with a blow so they are more effective than a boxer, but it doesn't neccesarily mean they could hit a boxer or stand a chance in the ring.
I typed a bunch of karate stuff. no one would beleive it. Like my instuctor punching baseball bats out of the air and shattering them. Or the wado ryu instructor Hitoshi who smashed 4 braced baseball bats taped together by kicking them with his bare shin.I just erased it all.
Here is a picture of my 11 year old son. who i have bragged about on here b4! He is 238 pounds and has a 52" chest. His thighs are 30"!! bigger than the giant Nicolai Valuev's!
As a reference he is standing in front of our full sized fridge!
He is wearing my old Karate Tshirt. I was a real Karate guy,way back when. Real Karate. Full Contact all body,no gear. face groin etc We held open tournements in Vancouver BC and invited every martial arts club to attend and compete with Japanese rules,it was brutal,we destroyed them. Although in every style there are great atheletes and tough guys. I did Goju-ryu karate. there are 5 main japanese karate styles
Shito-ryu,goju-ryu,wado-ryu,shodokan and kyokushinkai. Our club was the ONLY jka and jkf authorised club in North
KATA is a series of movements used to practise form. Kata competition and non or moderate contact tournements are for fags.
I've kept the shirt for over 30 years now,..brings back memories....man....am i really this old?
P.S. It was my Bday Jan 6! I turned 46!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
The kata Sanchin I mentioned earlier is the exercise to develop 'chi' or 'ki' power in karate. I think the Goju-ryu has it's version of Sanchin and though I'm not sure I think it's the softer version. The Uechi-ryu version is the hard-soft method. It uses the best of both worlds - while student try to develop their mystical ki power which will take years, the 'hard' part of the kata on the practical level develops physical power. This kata is not primarily a form exercise as most but it's more power developing exercise, and as such hardly has any fancy moves and are not used for competitions. It's a simple routine of strike, withdraw, and shift postion from left hand to right while moving forward. During the strike phase all the muscles of the body are forcefully contracted or tensed - it's as if you're doing weight training without the aid of barbels. In the dojos, during each strike phase, the teacher will pound various parts of the body to test if it is tensed hard enough, starting with the calf, - and it's no puzzy strike cuz you'll hear the wooden floor of the dojo banging everytime he does that - then the thighs in the next strike phase, then he gives a chop on both kidneys, then a strike on the abdomen, and finally a two-hand chop on the neck. In public demonstrations, they sometimes use thick wooden sticks instead of hands or feets for testing the kata and as the part of demonstration, they break those woods while striking the body parts with them, so clearly this kata is no sissy stuff. If you practice this kata for about a year, you'll develop pretty good power, and if you practice it for at least 3 years, you'll develop a rock solid body and power. That's why the masters of Uechi-ryu emphasize that this kata is the foundation of their style. By the way, all Japanese karate originated from its southern island of Okinawa, which traces their origin to China.Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
tons of kata is for fags. Its an excuse not to have to spar.
Chi is bullshit.
Did you really say "mystical power"? Oh boy....... ::**
The jka and jkf sent their #1 guy to North America in 1974 to introduce traditional japanese Karate. He was the 2 time all japan Karate tournement champion Tetsui Ura. he was my first Instructor when i was a kid. around that time some american karate guys like Bill "superfoot" wallace and benny "the jet" arquidas went to japan to spar and train and got their asses handed to them on a plate.
All the dancing in pyjamas isn't worth sh1t.
Boxers are good at what they do because they train and spar in a logical systematic proven manner.
A single karate punch would have more power (maybe) than a boxer punch because it comes from farther back and the fighter is stepping forward quickly as he strikes as in the lunge punch also the karate punch is bare fisted. Most real japanese karate fights only last maybe 20 seconds. One punch (or kick) lands and the guy is knocked out.
I have watched 100's maybe 1000's of matches and 1000's of full contact sparring sessions.
In all those matches I saw very few high kicks, 70% shin kicks,20% groin,rest abdomen.
North American KArate is shit. Almost always it is regulated non contact to the face and no foot contact below the waist except for leg sweeps. Japanese karate is the opposite! If a guy trains for 5 years and never has guys trying to punch him in the face or kick him in the nuts?? good luck in the bar! WE HAD 100'S OF MARTIAL ARTS GUYS COME TO OUR OPEN TOURNEMENTS. Most had never been punched in the mouth! I have had over 70 stiches in my face (i lost count) nose broken twice. Goju-ryu is the most linear or the 5 main styles,shotokan is the most chinese like or round. Kyokushinkai is a more "dirty" style more real.
The real differance is the mind set of the japanese people. The intensity of the training. The brutality (in our mind) of the instructors.
In WWII the japanese had Kamakazi pilots,they were all volunteers!
In japan in the 70's they had maybe 6 levels of karate clubs from University team Karate to city public dojo's. Every year we sponsered our top toughest best guy to go and train there, most didn't last 2 weeks. It's like the worst army boot camp,with the meanest nastiest drill seargant,times 10, but they can actually hit ,kick and beat you,and it goes on for years.
All right I won't tell you to believe about the so-called 'ki' power, but as a half Japanese (my mom's from Okinawa) and having born and grown up in the land of karate itself, I've been naturally exposed to everything about karate, including those 'mysitical' (I just call it that for the westerners' sake) parts, many I've heard about and some I've seen. When we visited the home dojo of the Uechi, we saw the founder's son himself who was already an old man. The older students of Uechi will swear that five strong students won't be able to push the elder Uechi even an inch when he perform the Sanchin. Even if they try to push him with a bamboo pole, they say they won't be able to make him budge even a little from his position. As for myself, once I was introduced to a man who they said was a son of one of old, famous karate clans. While we had a ramen at a noodle house, the man got one of those disposable chopsticks. He took the thin paper wrapper and folded it at few times at one end while leaving the other end about 6 inches in lenght as it is. Then he told one of us to hold the 1-piece chopstick not yet broken into the usual two and held the sharp end of the wrapper (just like a thin knife) pointed towards it and with a quick lightning stroke of the paper, he broke those chopsticks into two! I still couldn't believe how he broke those pretty tough chopsticks just with those very thin paper wrappers of those sticks themselves. At that time he said it needs years of practice to do that. Yea, you can say it's just a trick and he was just bluffing about the 'years of practice' line, and I won't argue with you cuz I really don't know. But as long as somebody can prove it so, I'll stick with what the young 'master' had said.
You're right about the kamikaze spirit. There's a famous cliff in Okinawa where, when the American troops pushed the Japanese soldiers and civilians there, rather than surrender they jumped to their death by the thousands during the WWII (Okinawa was the last battleground of WWII right after Iwo Jima but bloodier and my mom who was only a little girl was one of few survivors). The cliff is called the 'suicide cliff' and is now a war monument. I myself has an Japanese uncle who never came back from war... So we trained in the old tough ways back then. We were led to jump from a hill about 15 feet in height where I sprained my foot. We did a lots of makiwara striking to toughen our hands and until now have big knuckles because of them. And during those times, the Okinawans were demolishing their pre-war houses so we had a lot of old clay roof tiles at our disposal for the breaking. Barely a teen I was able to bread at least three of them stacked together and I assure you they were pretty tough. At the woodwork shop in our school, I'd sometimes break those pine boards in front of my classmates when I was in the middle school...
Yea I remember during those Wallace days, the karate in the States looked pretty bad. They were so clumsy compared to their Japanese counterparts and looked as if they were boxing with some bad kicks. But I'd say Chucky was passable, though. The karatekas now, including the movie stars, are much better now then before, though I'd still say the karate schools there a tailored for city kids and so far from the traditional way we practiced.
...I've been through enough of the old, traditional training and now, I'm on the 'softer' or the ki side of karate. I've master the hard part and have nothing to prove anymore, having graduated from tile or board breakings and body bangings, and all. I've been meditating a lot which has changed me a lot. When I was young, I was a hot-headed lad and have smacked lot of kids in the face. But now I've turned into a calmer, no-confrontational type of person. Once I spilled whole content of my coffee mug on my lap but surprisingly, I didn't feel a bit of annoyance and just calmly washed my self, cleaned the floor and the table, whereas before I'd be upset and swearing all kinds of four-lettered words. That's what the 'soft' side of karate can do to a person. Of course, you'll say those ki stuff as nonsense, but for me it gives me a lifetime goal in life, and it doesn't even matter to me anymore if it's fake or if I won't be able to achieve it. Living in rural Philippines now where there's nothing much, this goals is what keeps me going, something that I can look to for the rest of my life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrackJawof74
True, thats a bunch of BS! CutmeMick posted a video a few months back that measured the power and impact of a punch and all the martial arts ones registered MUCH lower power than that of the boxer. Also, most martial art punches (i know im generalizing here) are about being straight, fast and sharp; whereas a boxer's punch can carry some mean power and leverage behind it.
It's you again, I guess you really like me. But let me tell you something, all those measurements depends on who they measure. If they 'measure' a good boxer against a bad karateman, then the result will be bad for the karateman, and vice-versa, simple as that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacfan
I simply disagree with you, that does not mean I don't like you.
I even found the video for you: [youtube=425,350]ZQTzeQssFY8[/youtube]
Now I doubt that it is a very accurate study because it does depend on the person, but it gives you a good general idea.
All right, I got your point but I'm in no mood to argue now cuz it's my time to bed.
Well PACFAN.....you earned a degree of credibility with the use of the word makiwara board. It was our best freind in the gym.
For those of you who dont know what it is...
Ours was made from 3, 6 foot long 2x4's the middle 2x4 was about 3 or 3 1/2 feet long so there was a gap of 2" between the upper 3 or so feet of the 2 front and back boards. the front board had some padding. I think it was some electrical tape! the aparatus was concreted into the ground. The boards are quite ridgid . You stood in front of the thing and punched the front board with your bare fist (knuckles) for a series of practice punches. For the punch to count you must strike it with enough force that the front 2x4 "smacks" the rear one (remember there is a 2" gap as the middle board is shorter) making a loud clacking noise! When i was first introduced to this device i thought he was joking! Pushing the front board as hard as i could with all my body weight (then about 160) I was unable to make it bend or flex back to touch the rear board. Part of the reason is that a slow force bends all 3 boards at the same time. A strong and fast blow is required . and overcoming the fear of breaking your hand against the board. It took me 2 years before I ever heard the boards "clack".
MAny never did. Many hands were broken. Really it was a stupid idea!!
BUT!! the pride when you could step up to the board and count off repeated strikes with the loud clacking!! ICH, NEE, SUM ,CHI, GO ,ROK ,Hitch.. we counted in japanese as the students watched in amazement. One day I came to the dojo very early and caught our instructor screwing large wood screws into the makiwara board! by screwing the 3 boards together starting at the base and moving pogressivly higher and higher up it made it more ridgid and harder to bend!!! The B@stard! he just smiled at me! no wonder it always seemed so F#cking hard! After maybe 4 years the instuctor took all those who had mastered teh makiwara board and gave us other assignments! One i remember was trying to punch a hole through a cardboard box while it was just sitting on a high table. A stiff small box with thickish sides like an orange or apple box will do make sure its closed with the lid on so the sides are 2 thicknesses. TRY it! its hard! the damn thing just flys away when you go to hit it. I won many bets. AHH the memmories....(looks down at arthritised knuckles...mumbles......B@stard)
I'm back. Just in case if you're still interested, let me start by telling you that I use a dial-up and those u-tube vids don't 'stream' or roll with them - that's one of the hazards of being a third world man, paradise has it's own drawbacks, I guess. Anyway, it really doesn't matter to me much cuz I've pretty much made up my mind about that, knowing the caliber of boxers these days. But let me clarify one thing first. When I said karatemen are better punchers than boxers, I clearly meant in general terms. I know there are some excellent punchers in boxing and top class punchers there probably are as good as top class karate punchers. Having said that let me 'try' to explain to you why I think karatemen are generally better, punch-wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasamm
First, in my long experience as a karate puncher, I've learned that one of the basic requirements of a good punch is 'stiffness.' A good punch must be very stiff, that is, it must be thrown with a solid, firm, well-clenched fists. This is where most boxers fail and the reason is pretty simple. Most boxers start learning punching with gloves on, together with all the wrappings. This clearly hampers the clenching of the fists inside them and you can't have a strong, stiff punch without a strong, firm fists and arms. On the other hand, in real karate (I have to emphasize the word real cuz most karate taught nowadays are not authentic ones but as I've said before, they're tailor-made for city kids), students are first taught punching with empty fists, and they are later made to toughen their fists by striking semi-hard posts called 'makiwara' as I and poster 'landmine' have described here. When a puncher strikes a solid object, his fists, wrists and arms must be firm, or else, it collapses, usually at the wrists first. So karatemen are told to strenghten their wrists, as well as their hands (fists) and arms. Without stiff fists, wrists and arms, you can't be an excellent puncher. Strangely, and lucky for him, this is how Pacquiao started punching and I'm very sure it's not a coincidence why he punches well. A local tv showed couple of times a place where he grew up and first started punching. He punched with bare fists on a coconut tree post with a pair of rubber flip-flop sandals attached for a little cushion - almost exactly like the karate makiwaras!
The next important characteristic of a good punch is a snap, but it must be accompanied with a good 'stiffness' in order to be effective. Erik had a pretty good snap in his punches but he wasn't able to knock Pac simply because they lacked stiffness. If they were hard, stiff punches, I'm pretty sure he'd knocked my boy down. Stiffness is one big reason why Lennox Lewis' (did I get the spelling right?) punches are effective. Haven't anyone here thought why inspite of pretty boring, slow-looking punches Lewis throws, they still hurt his opponents. It's because his punches, with a reasonable snap, are very stiff. It's like putting a 3 by 3 inch stick inside a boxing glove and hitting you with it with a good snap - I can assure you that'll hurt any tough guys.
There are other important characteristics of a good punch but I'll not go into them now cuz probably most people here, who are mostly fans, are not much interested in them anyway. I think I've said enough anyway to clarify my points here. I'll probably write about it in the future when someone comes up with a thread about 'punches'.
Mr. landmine, it was pleasure 'talking' to you here, as it is always a pleasure for me to talk to anyone about karate. And of course, thanks for your appreciation - the respect is mutual. Now I can close this discussion and this thread is the most that I've written on so far, whewy. By the way, though a bit late, Happy Birthday to you!Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
there is one ultmate fighting stle ninjutsu it is nearly impossible to reach black belt, you have to dodge a sharp sword with eyes blind folded while your back is turn away from your teacher who is ready to strike you.
it is the dark and most dangerous martial art but has humble deciplen. every form of strike comes from every inch of the body, a boxer is a professional puncher but would be overwhelm by the speed balance and striking knowledge of a ninjutsu artist. even if any form of fighting ninjutsu would win it is the ultimate form, its the combination of everything all compact into one body power speed balance knowledge.
a ninjutsu master would overwhelm any form of other martial arts master. it is a tradition advance kung fu, kept in secretcy for decades of years. with every knowledge at any posible fighting scenerio, ninjutsu is no sport though it is the realest. if any one in the ufc or mma could master ninjutsu that man would be legendary and impossible to beat. but nope you won't hear anyone even with a little background of it.
I guess its because its bann to teach it. I'm a few lucky to learn a bit, sadly it was banned.
check this clip out of a kung fu punch and a "no touch" punch
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GQdJf-rTVFo
Derren Brown is a well known hypnotist in the UK