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if cus never died i think tyson would be considered the greatest boxer of all time,he hadspeed power and good defense but its after cus left that u seen tyson lose grip on his carreer .... and how far up u think he is considered with some of the other legends i see him in the top ten cuz i cant really see any heavyweight beating him in his prime... foreman mayb ali and thas it
beating tyson prime for prime here is my listQuote:
Originally Posted by the phenom
larry holmes
muhammad ali
george foreman
riddick bowe
prime holyfield
tyson was great but not as great as people make him seem and i mean he did lose 4 roudns to tony tucker and yes i know i keep bringing him up but tucker isnt as great as the ones i mentioned and he did injury his right hand in training but anyway thats my list on who would beat tyson even with cus
well i see foreman and ali but just cant see larry holmes or bowe beating himQuote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
larry holmes in his prime was excellent mate he had great stamina good chin great jab good footwork and good speed all the stuff that you need to beat tyson as for bowe i dont know really how great he was i used to say bowe would beat tyson for sure but after i heard he struggled against and out of his prime tony tubbs which alot of people thought tubbs won im not so sure anymore and this was bowe in his prime aswellQuote:
Originally Posted by the phenom
Like I've said 100 times before, if he had retired after the Spinks fight EVERYBODY would have him top 3 HW of all time!! Even you ICECOLD ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by the phenom
yea and if larry holmes wouldnt of got robbed by spinks and retired how high would larry holmes been ?? but no i wouldnt of rated tyson that high after he retired of spinks fight because now we would be saying how good was he ?? he retired too soon and didnt do his full potential ive got nothing against tyson i think he was great fighter but he isnt as great as you guys make out like* he was unbeatable in his prime* thats all nonsense to me mate but like i said i got nothing against tyson he was great but you guys overrate him too much imo anyway mateQuote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Holmes would still be where he is now TOP 5 (as is Tyson) ;)
You have to ask yourself, why people that were alive at the time ;D were so taken by Tyson and why he was the biggest sportsman on the planet. He wasn't controversial at that time, all the attention was purely boxing related. You have to ask why nobody since Ali, and nobody post Tyson has ever created that excitement ;)
The answer lies in the fact that he really was that good
i know you rate holmes highly mate but alot dont just imagine if he would of retired underfeated if he wouldnt of got robbed by spinks as for tyson he was great mate but not unbeatable like people try and make out but he was damn good i never tried to say he wernt but i think holmes ali would both beat tyson in there primes imo anyway mate
Mike Tyson vs Tony Tucker: Part 1
[youtube=425,350]Kg045olO-Dg[/youtube]
see in the footage here tucker was doing very good for first 4 rounds he just couldnt keep it up imo and young larry holmes and ali with both of there great stamina and good chins would keep that up for 12 rounds and win a decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
seen it it is possible to beat tyson and i favor ali and mayb larry but the thing is dont forget every puncher can win with that devasting shot ... if frazier couldve put ali on his ass mayb tyson could to but thas a big ass mayb though
yea but that was in 15th round when he got floored by fraizer when im putting tyson against the greats im doing it at 12 rounds because tyson never went 15 rounds before mate so i dont know how good he would be at 15 rounds so i think its only fair to do it at 12 roundsQuote:
Originally Posted by the phenom
The left hook Joe Frazier landed in the 15th round may be the single hardest, most explosive punch that I've ever seen in a boxing ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by the phenom
I would counter that if I Ali could get to his feet after that punch, he could survive any punch from Tyson or any other fighter in history.
By the way, the left hook Frazier landed at the beginning of Round 6 in Manila may be the second hardest punch I've ever seen, and Ali didn't even go down. Amazing chin.
you seem like knowledgeable poster mate did that left hook that floored ali in 15th break his jaw because i cant rememberQuote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
I couldn't call a Prime Holmes Prime Tyson fight, I may lean towards Holmes if it went long. But one thing I do know i that Holmes would NEVER had taken the punches that KOed him at anytime during his career, and was his defence really that shot in 88 :-\
I think Ali got his jaw broken by Norton, not Frazier. I'm not completely sure though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
well he was 38 had two weeks to train and hadnt fought in 2 years and was on losing streak so you tell me  ;) and at one point in that fight he started dancing and tyson looked confused and young holmes would do that for full distance if your saying that then was mike tysons defence really shot against razor ruddock ?? because to me he looked very good and i dont really see no difference them body shots he hit ruddock with in first fight were devasting and he had headmovement still it was just the way ruddock threw his punches he threw them very akward like uppercuts he threw were akward and strange thats why sometimes when tyson got caught he didnt see it coming because he threw them akward not because tyson was shot or losing his skillsQuote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
ok thanks man ccQuote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
He was still fighting at 50 odd and did well enough aginst Mercer post Tyson ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I get your point and totally agree that the Holmes that fought Tyson was a shadow - and as I said I would lean towards Holmes prime for prime.
ok fair enough mate i agree with that no dispute there 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
If cus d'amota doesn't die in the beginning of tyson career, Tyson goes down in history as the best heavyweight boxer of all time.
I gotta disagree with this one. While Cus' presence would've had a positive effect, do you think Cus would've convinced 23 year old Mike Tyson to go to bed by 9 pm every night and not go out partying?Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Tyson had fatal flaws that were going to surface at some point, no matter what.
Ali will always be better than Tyson.
He would have delayed them singnificantly i think. Tyson was a time bomb just because of the way he was raised but if cus is around longer maybe tyson adapts and doesn't turn out to be the mike tyson of today (See trainwreck).
Yeah, you may be right. But "not being a trainwreck" is a big difference from "greatest heavyweight in history."Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
I see him in his prime as being in the top 3. A lot of people think he was just a bum who put four good years together b4 he fell apart. You can't really say who's the best heavyweight boxer of all time unless you could use a celebrity deathmatch time machine, bring them all back, and have a tournament seeded randomly. A prime tyson gives any great heavyweight a defeat or a run for his money.
At his absolute peak he may have been the 3rd best. Someone could argue a bunch of other guys, but you could certainly make a legit argument for Tyson too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
I just don't think you can say someone was the best ever just because they were great in their short prime. Part of being a great athlete is being able to win even after your skills and youth begin to fade away. The greats can still win even when they're not at their best. That's what separates Ali from Tyson. Ali had a whole second career where he was past his prime.
I'm saying that if we're going into hypothetical things let's assume it turns out completely different. Tyson is guided through the majority of his career by his legal guardian and probably the only person he respected as a parental figure. He doesn't have the lapse in training or concentration. He goes on to beat buster douglas and the rising heavyweight star holyfield. He doesn't go to prison and continues this domination of the division. He beats morrison, a comeback bound foreman, moorer and lennox lewis. Where does he stand if that happens?
Much higher on the list than he is now for sure. Top 10 definitely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
But I think even if Tyson stayed focused, he still would've lost to Holyfield and Lewis. I think he lost to those guys because of styles and skills, not because he wasn't focused. I think he would've lost to Holyfield and Lewis no matter what.
Who ould've beaten him on his best night? I'm really not sure - but people who say he aint top 10, I bet they cant find 10 that would beat him on the night he defeated Tyrell Biggs ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Mike Tyson VS Tyrell Biggs
[youtube=425,350]PEo2Hxf0n5U[/youtube]
you mean this one big h 8)
"Go toe to toe with him" That has my vote for worst corner advice ever.
haha yea my god what were they thinking biggs legs are jelly he hasnt got the best chin in the world and there telling him to fight on inside with animal like tyson  ::**Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Cus was the only person Mike really cared for and loved and he was his trainer too,took Tyson under his wing,taught him,almost like a father and son relationship. And in Mike,Cus created an ultimate fighting machine,I mean the nearest HW at the time just did not compare at all! And even when you look through the ages, I don't remember seeing such a ridiculous combination of power,and his speed for a HW was magnificent as was his pyhsical conditioning and his defence was very very good,under rated.
Anyway,my point being,Tyson was young with Cus and always maturing,had Cus still been around,he would have molded Tyson into an even better fighter,if that was possible. He gave Mike drive,a purpose,and was good for him mentally. And people tend to forget,Tyson was a student of the game too.He studied tapes,watched them,learnt from them and heck even did some of the same poses as past great HW!! In my honest opinion,had Cus stayed alive, we would be talking about Mike as a true legend of boxing.
However,Cus died and the rest is history unfortunately. I always wondered though,how Tyson would have turned out had the Catskill Connection still been around..... :-\
I also liked Duva saying to Biggs, "Come on, this guy can't do anything to ya, this guy's gone!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
I watched tysons greatest hits volume one on espn awhile back and midway thru his 18 ko streak they knew what they were watching. "And in the rare event that this fight goes the distance (it was a 6 rounder) we will go to the scorecards of _____"
It wasnt all roses when Cus was alive, There were problems even then,
Indeed there were but I'm sure it was better with Cus then without. By the way,you REALLY need to help me find some Charlie Burley videos,I've searched and searched but have been unable to find anything on the guy!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
This is a very important point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
There are lots of stories about Cus letting Mike get away with tons of stuff that he didn't let any of his other fighters get away with. Cus was old and he knew that Mike was his last shot at a world champ, so he let him get away with tons of stuff.
Mike already felt he could get away with anything even when Cus was alive.
This is what was behind my point earlier in the thread when I said that even Cus wouldn't have been able to stop 23-24 year old Tyson from living a wild lifestyle.
the man was in jail at 13 years old for possesion of cocaine, he used to mug old ladies to make a living, he didn't see his mom before she died and it honestly didn't matter to him if she did or not, and before cus the closest thing the guy had to support him was pigeons. Let's see you not do any worse than how cus did with that kid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
fighting tyson on the inside is like saying jump down that cliff nothinll happen ........... hey ice cold gota give you props i think ur one of the smartest guys in this forum when it comes to boxing always give me a good non shit talking argument