Printable View
Think about it, they said Ray Robinson was pound for pound the great fighter,
and they said Ali was the greatest.
Both had good footwork, speed and KO power.
I personally believe Ali was the greatest heavyweight, but Ray Robinson was the
greatest fighter EVER.
Lets hear from the forum!
the thing is Muhammad Ali is recognized from a prepy white girl to a Indian with no TV (not being racist) but the people that know ray robinson are mostly only boxing fans but thas kinda beyond the point......... i honestly think Ali and robinson cant be compared because they both had great accomplishments but it was just 2 different eras of boxing......... when 2 boxers are compared from diffrent ages of boxing it makes it complicated but i guess Alis recognition would give him the edge Ray Robinson was so great because he was ahead of his time if he fought in a diffrent age who knows what would've happen the thing is he fought in boxing days when there really wasn't much television broadcasting or any serious deals so he was able to fight weekly and Ali couldn't ............ so after all that i would have to say Ali
IMO its Robinson.
To be a great fighter you beat great fighters. There were more great fighters around in Robinsons day, because there were more fighters. A little story we took a team of London to box Liverpool with all the top Liverpool lads not Boxing Because they were on International duty in the 70s. most people thought we would get a result.I explained that what made the good lads good wasthey were competing with good lads all the time from the area, we got done 8 bouts to 2
gotta be Ali
Without ray there is no Ali ;)
So without a doubt robinson... He was the inspiration for most of the greatest fighters in history
Peace
Robinson is the greatest between him and pretty much anyone else
JOE LOUIS is the greatest heavyweight and Marciano is second.....Ali is THIRD
Robinson to me was the greatest fighter ever, i thought ALi said that he thought SRR was the greatest ever?
As far as heavyweights go i agree mostly with lyle..Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
More so with george foreman's list..
Ali was not the greatest heavyweight..But mighty high on the list....He is the greatest as a man and what he did for the sport.
Peace
Sugar Ray Robinson - 173-19-6 (108 KOs) Averaging 8 fights a year.
Win % 86.5
KO % 62.4
Notable wins: Jake LaMotta, Henry Armstrong, Artie Levine, Georgie Abrams, Jimmie Doyle, Chuck Taylor,
Kid Gavilan, Luc Van Dam, Randy Turpin, Ralph Dupas.
Tites: National Boxing Association World Middleweight Title, World Middleweight Title, Pennsylvania State World Middleweight Title, World Welterweight Title
Muhammed Ali - 56-5-0 (37 KOs) Averaging 3 fights a year.
Win % 91.8
KO % 66.1
Notable wins: Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, George Chuvalo, Ken norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman.
Titles: World Heavyweight Title, WBA Heavyweight Title, NABF Heavyweight Title, WBA Heavyweight Title
Hope this helps.
Robinsons 108 KO's is incredible and swings it 8)
Personally titles dont matter to me in this arguement..And i do understand that times had changed by the time ali came around so he definately fought less..
But if we are to compare opponents and numbers of fights...
Then i beleive Ray tears ali apart.. Not just for the fact that ray wouldnt have had great training like ali had in comparision.. But people in general were alot tougher back then..They fwokin had to be..Times were shit and there werent no bums out there..Alot of tough tough men earning a living and they didnt pick and choose back then so's they could win.. They were puttin food on the table
Plus like i said before.. Theres no ali without srr..
I can maybe see someone arguing that Louis is a better HW than Ali (though I'd think they were wrong), but I can't even see the argument that Marciano is. If they fought head-to-head, do you truly think Marciano would be anything but dominated?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
Thosestats do not include fights of Robinsons that were lost track of....I think he defended his title 5 times in two week at one point
Ali is a great fighter.
I know who Joe Lewis is, but I haven't seen much of his fights.
Sugar Ray Robinson fought good fights.
All the others are like really very good, but not the greatest!
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Ali
3. Joe Lewis (according to the forum)
4. Lennox Lewis (yes Lennox has a quality list of opponants he beat)
How are you gonna justify Lennox Lewis at number 4, over every other boxer in history, aside from the top three, I'd love to hear this.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardrock
Marciano was 49-0-0 beat the best his era had to offerQuote:
Originally Posted by shza
Ali was great but hell put him head to head with any of the super heavyweights and he would have a HELL of a time....Lennox Lewis would be tough for him, Vitali, Wladimir, even Shannon Briggs would be tough for Ali....be real about it.
The question didn't ask for head to head comparison but still I think Marciano would give Ali a very very tough fight
Im not sure how shannon fits in with the equation but definately rocky and lennox are up thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I'd say rocky in the top five..
Depending on the arguement all layed out on the table against others..I put lennox either side of the top 5 either 5 or slightly below.. I truely believe he is wayy underrated..
Peace
prime ali would be too slick and his jab keep pumping in his face would cause lewis problems remember bruno lewis ?? well would be like that comfortable ud for ali vitali maybe he would give ali bit of run for his moeny but still ud for ali wlads chin is too weak tko late for ali and no not briggs he is overrated only time i see him perform good is against lewis and he still got stuffing beat out of himQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Its hard to say Robinson never fought the competition that Ali fought, but he fought more guys and won more fights percentage wise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I don't know who's record your going by but last time I checked On Ray Robinsons he hols wins over...
Fritzie Zivic
Marty Saervo
Sammy Angott
Jake La Motta
Henry Armstrong
Tommy Bell
Chuck Taylor
Kid Gavilin
Bobo Olsen
Luc Van Dam
Randy Turpin
Rocky Grazino
Gene Fullemer
Carmen Bassilio...to name a few that is DAMN IMPRESSIVE COMPETITION!!!!!
Throw in some more very good fighters and of course a few no bodies but he also fought more often then most guys too
not to mention he was fighting a lot of these guys within weeks of each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Henry Armstrong was past his prime, and way smaller than Robinson, but besides him who can compare with Foreman, Frazier, Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, and Floyd Patterson? Thats at least 5 guys in the top 20 heavyweights ever. He lost to Holmes, but that would be 6, and 3 possible four guys in the top 20 best fighters ever (Frazier, Foreman, Moore, possible Holmes). He also fought Jimmy Young, Ken Norton, Mildenberger, Folley, Quarrey, Bugner, Wepner, Lyle, Shavers, Spinks, and even Berbick was a pretty good fighter back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
OK that statement right there says your knoweldge of the sport back then is limited....do some homework on Bassilio, Fullemer, Gavilin ,Turpin,Zivic, Olsen we will just keep it to those right now...and boxrec does not count....
As for best days Archie was past his...Wepner was tough but a wipping boy for all...and P4P not as tough as LaMotta...
The fact you would even throw Leon Spinks name in there is a joke...his whole career was his win over ALI....
I am as big a fan you could possibly get of both and IMO they rank 1 and 2 all time but Ray was just a bit better.....
Lyle, with all due respect....Ali, in his prime, would punish any of the fighters you mentioned. Ali would make them look incredibly slow footed and pick them apart all night. As for the strength of the current super heavyweights...Ali took the best Foreman, Sheavers, Liston, and Frazier had to give. I personally don't highly rate the current group of heavyweights at all. As for Lewis...a very good fighter...but Ali is unlike anyone he has come close to fighting. Before he was banned from fighting...Ali was a thing of beauty...an incredible athlete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Ali had trouble with guys other people didn't.....Ken Norton??? ANY big punchers just BLASTED him.
Based on the SIZE aspect which EVERYONE brings up Ali would have trouble with those guys...Ali moved really well what about Riddick Bowe?
Bowe, Lewis, Briggs, The Klitschko's they are all HUGE compared to Ali and they are all athletic enough to cut off the ring and Ali wouldn't KO all of them or out point all of them but historically he's one of the greatest boxers ever.
Now I am not saying Ali sucks but I am saying that now'a'days we have bigger boxers with different skills and since more people have learned about what Ali did more people know how to beat that style.
With the size thing, well it doesn't only apply to Dempsey and Marciano is all I am saying.
A good fighter is a good fighter and how they do in their era vs THE BEST FIGHTERS is how good they are historically
That's all fine and good, but you obviously also have to take into consideration how good "THE BEST FIGHTERS" of these guys' era were. The best fighters of Ali's era (and Ali's overall competition) was a million times better than most of who was around for Marciano. I guarantee you Marciano wouldn't have his record if he fought in Ali's era (and not only because he'd lose to Ali).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
Agreed and that is no dis respect to Marciano
Hey buddy Walcott, Charles, Moore, LaStarza, and Layne aren't to be denied their place in history either...so Foreman, Frazier, Norton...they were great but you just can't immediately say Ali was the greatest just because he beat them....he lost to Joe and Norton as well, let's not forget it.Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
I'm never trying to disgrace anyone's place in the history of the sport but you just can't switch eras around like that.....like how would Joe Louis do in Tyson's era....I personally think he'd still be great but what about Tyson in Ali's era??? And what if the Earth stopped rotating.....fun to think about but we'll never know what would happen.
Everyone has their opinions and one of mine is 1. Louis, 2. Marciano, 3. Ali......it won't change, deal with it
Lewis could not handle speed I know this
Simple,
SRR. 8)
ALI--he was faster than robinson and he was a heavyweight--he was the perfect boxer--the 60's could fire punches from all angles --like robinson---had a chin --like robinson...but ali had the best opposition than any other boxer in any other weight class--his oppostion was better than robinsons--thats y i rate him as the greastest......so does espn classic--lol
No doubt about it Sugar Ray Robinson.
Good points coming, anymore?
::**
I agree I shouldn't have added Spinks I was just saying guys off the top of my head that were good back then. Turpin only beat Ray Robinson and Humez of notable opponents, and Zivic was decent and fought good opponent though he did lose more than a third of his career alot of that came later on, but he can't compare with Frazier or Foreman or Liston. Zivic fought the naturally alot smaller Armstrong, and he did impressively against the much known, but not overly skilled Cochrane who was Gattish at best. Fullmer, Turpin and Lamotta were all tought, but they had no athletic gifts at all... compare that to among the best athletes in the world at Ali's time in Foreman, Liston, Patterson where are great athletes who were quicker than half the guys Robinson fought while outweighing them by 50-60 pounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
I agree as well... He was faster than Robinson at both footspeed and handspeed which is incredible, and he was funner to watch IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by undefeated
Sidenote: I think Robinson was a far superior technical boxer, and he IMO was more impressive later on in his career because he worked harder than Ali did. There was no reason for Ali to be so much more flat footed when he returned to the ring after he was exiled. he just didn't work hard enough in the gym.
Robinson was better than Ali hands down....Ali copied Sugar Ray but there is one thing he couldn't copy....Ray's power!
Also ray's chin!! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Ali always said in interviews after he retired and/or was old..That he could move..But when he got hit on the chin... :cwm33: lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Ray did have power...I think it was Fullemer that said after the KO loss in their second fight..."When I came to I saw Ray jumping up and down in his corner. I asked my manager why is Ray exercising..My manager said he isn't exercising it's over. Well I said I t must of been me that was counted out because I don't remember a thing"...Some say in that fight Ray threw the most perfect left hook ever..